Questions That Must Be Answered For the Arminian and Non-Reformed

Question Brother.
Do you think people misunderstand Calvinism?

Can we be in the Middle? Can you not be neither?

What if one agrees but not with the name of Calvinism?

These are questions are about God being sovereign, more so if you are Cavinism or not?

The question that hits me... My pastor brought this up a few weeks ago.. How I am I better to chose Christ and not someone else? How was I able to pray and not my brother? Why do I have faith and not him. If will just and sinful as he was?
Can you see Christ and turn from him?
many have told me you can

Brother what is so important about knowing if God called us, or we had free will?

We are all a body right? Have had faith in Christ?

Would it be that if we think one way or another we have different veiw of who God is?

Therfore in some ways our picture of God has changed?

So maybe one way in more humbling and hard for us to handle?

blessing
charlene

Abe_Juliot wrote:

1. Why do you believe in Christ, while your unbelieving neighbor doesn’t?

2. What does it mean, from an non-Reformed position, that God is sovereign, and can that position be reconciled with the overall teaching of Scripture?

3. Can God fail?

If god wanted my grandpa in hell by not choosing him to be saved, then that god is a devil.

5. If there is a person God has determined to save, but they have the power to thwart His plan to save them, doesn’t that mean that God isn’t sovereign, omnipotent, or omniscient?

6. Has God ordained all things that come to pass?

If not, then how is that things come to pass, and how can it be said that God is sovereign over those things?

7. Is God obligated to show mercy to any person?

If so, then how can [it be] undeserved? Wouldn't salvation then be based on the merit of the individual?

8. Was salvation actually accomplished or potentially provided for on the cross?

I was not saved when Jesus hung on that tree.

a. Why would Jesus have had to die if it only provided the possibility of salvation without actually saving people?

In other words, if it was just belief in God or in Jesus that would save a person, then why would Jesus have to die, especially since people already believed in God prior to the coming of Jesus, and even believed in Jesus during His ministry?

b. What would happen if no one ever "accepted" Jesus?

c. How many people do you think would eventually be saved?

9. If Christ really died a substitutionary death on the cross, whereby He died in the place of specific individuals, and actually propitiated and expiated that person’s sins, how could it be possible for God to send that person to hell for the very sins that Christ already was punished for on his behalf?

The Children of Israel had to aply the blood to the door posts, so we must aply the blood to ourselves.

10. How can salvation be possible to those who, from the perspective of God's omniscience, are certain to be lost?

11. which view of salvation actually accomplishes and secures the salvation of more people, and as such is much more honoring to God?

12. If God has chosen to save a person, died for a person, effectually called/regenerated that person, and gave that person the gifts of faith and repentance, is it conceivable that that person could perish (i.e., lose his salvation)?

13. If the only thing God did was to merely give every single person a chance/opportunity to be saved, how many people would actually be saved?

14. On what basis did God choose you for salvation?

15. How is it that God knows the future?

Does He know the future because He has decreed and determined what the future will be, or does He know it because He can see the future that somehow happens without His direct involvement in determining the future?

1. God has very plainly revealed Himself in creation, and Christ has been preached to me (Rom. 1 and 10).

2. It depends on what you mean by sovereign. He is the creator, upholder, and sustainer of all things. He is self sufficient and acts only in accordance with His will. He needs not consent nor help of any other. This is clearly taught by scripture.

3. no

4. no

5. This question starts with a false premise.

6. no; the second part of the question is a false premise

7. God is not "obligated" to do anything; but He can't contradict Himself. If He chooses and promises to have mercy, then He can't not. But I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion, other than setting up more false premises.

8. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. It has and always will be accomplished. The question is, will you repent and believe so you can attain it?
a. this question makes no sense. There is no remission without the shedding of blood.
b. "accepting" Jesus is not a biblical concept
c. what?

9. Heb. 10. If you don't repent, you trample the Son of God under foot, counting His sacrifice not good enough for them. How much better it would be had they not even heard, than to hear and reject! And let us remember, that no one is condemned because of what Christ did or did not do, but because they are monsters of iniquity...they love their sin and want to remain therein, INSPITE of Christ's sacrifice! How great is the love of God, to sacrifice even for those who will not believe!

10. False premise again. This author continues to assume Calvinism, then ask the question so that no other answer is possible.

11. God determines His glory, not man.

12. False premise.

13. Not sure what this has to do with anything.

14. False premise, but I will address it anyway. God did not choose me (specifically) to be saved, but chooses to save me out of His mercy and grace, on the merits of Christ.

15. The more I read this article, the more I think the author is hyper-Calvinist...that God directs EVERYTHING, including sin. Omniscience does not necessitate orchestration. If it did, then it has to work both ways. He would have to cause Adam to sin if He likewise causes man to be saved.

-------------------------------------------

Abe, I'm not sure what you are trying to do here. If you are trying to show the folly of Arminianism and the superiority of Calvinism, this artice does a HORRIBLE job. False premise after false premise, it hopelessly misrepresents both "sides" of the issue.

I personally consider myself more Wesleyan in soteriology than either Calvinistic or Arminian.

Some last thoughts: Ravenhill said, "Your theology can be straight as a gunbarrel and just as empty." We are not called by Christ to be Statements of Faith, but rather simply obedient to Him. Looking through history, it seems that Arminians pray like Calvinists and Calvinists preach like Arminians. And people are saved to the glory of God regardless. Praise Him!

I will answer the first question, for there is too much to respond to in this mannner...

1. Why do you believe in Christ, while your unbelieving neighbor doesn’t?

Proverbs 1:

20 \tWisdom calls aloud outside;
\tShe raises her voice in the open squares.
21 \tShe cries out in the chief concourses,
\tAt the openings of the gates in the city
\tShe speaks her words:
22 \t“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
\tFor scorners delight in their scorning,
\tAnd fools hate knowledge.
23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.
24 \tBecause I have called and you refused,
\tI have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 \tBecause you disdained all my counsel,
\tAnd would have none of my rebuke,
26 \tI also will laugh at your calamity;
\tI will mock when your terror comes,
27 \tWhen your terror comes like a storm,
\tAnd your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
\tWhen distress and anguish come upon you.
28 \t“Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
\tThey will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
29 \tBecause they hated knowledge
\tAnd did not choose the fear of the LORD,
30 \tThey would have none of my counsel
\tAnd despised my every rebuke.
31 \tTherefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
\tAnd be filled to the full with their own fancies.
32 \tFor the turning away of the simple will slay them,
\tAnd the complacency of fools will destroy them;
33 \tBut whoever listens to me will dwell safely,
\tAnd will be secure, without fear of evil.”

This section of Scripture is parallel to what Paul wrote in Romans 1.

Do you see this precept?

In Christ
Jeff

Hi Logic...

I really enjoyed your responses! I don't know that I have ever read a more insightful rebuttal to these sort of doctrinal questions. Thanks!

The more that I study the views of Calvinism, the more I am convinced that many Calvinists do not understand the ETERNAL viewpoint of God. He has always known the end from the beginning. Before He created us, He knew who would ultimately choose to accept His offer to fellowship with Him. Yet this time-confined place called LIFE is burdened with the concept of FREE WILL. If predestination prevented our free will from making any difference in our eternal condition, then Christ would have died in vain.

Thanks for sharing your articulate response! I am neither Calvinist or Arminianist. I am simply a believer who freely chooses to love and serve the one true Living God. But God already knew that -- even before He created the Universe, didn't He?

:-)

Jim has a very god point i belive, i see booth camps literately ignoring 100 of scriptures or make them mean something else that "suits" their doctrine, interesting i read just today these eleven questions :-) so just to even this out i post them.

God bless you all

11 Questions on Calvinism & the Calvinist's Worldview

1. It is often said by Calvinists that dead men can't respond. As you say, "you are dead in your trespasses & sins." Eph. 2:1.

In Romans 6, it says that "in the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

If being dead in sin means one can't respond to God then does being dead to sin mean that the Christian cannot respond to sin?

2. Even though God does perfectly know all human thoughts, can man have thoughts that have never been thought before (i.e. ex-nihilo thoughts)?

If these thoughts are not free (e.g., they are determined) then has God caused all thoughts, including evil ones, which would make God the author of sin and evil and man not responsible?

If, on the other hand, these thoughts are free, then how can God remain sovereign according to the Calvinist definition of sovereignty?

3. The Bible says in 1 Timothy 2:4, "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth."

It also states that God wants all men to be saved in 2 Peter 3:9, Matthew 23:37 and in Ezekiel 33:11 and 18:30. Obviously not all men are saved.

How does Calvinism explain this? Does the God of Calvinism have two wills that are in direct contradiction and hence have a multiple personality disorder?

4. Calvinism excludes individual faith from the salvation process, classifying such faith as a work.

How can Calvinists classify faith as a work when Paul specifically excludes faith from works in Romans 3:27-28 and 4:5?

5. Jonah 2:8 says that "those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."

If, as Calvinism teaches, God determined before time began who would be reprobates, and therefore does not extend the grace to them by which they could be saved, how logically can we understand this verse's statement that these reprobates, "forfeited the grace that could be theirs.?"

6. The Bible says in John 6:44, "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." The same word "draw" is used in John 12:32 which says, "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto myself." Matthew 23:37 says that men can resist God's will.

How do you answer this problem in Calvinism?

7. You say that even the "good" acts of sinners are "bad" because they come from a completely depraved nature. Is it a "bad" act to rationally apprehend the truthfulness of apologetics?

If so, why has God commanded us to practice apologetics to sinners, which causes them to do a bad act? Doesn't that mean that God causes sinners' bad acts?

If you say "yes," doesn't that make God a bad guy?

8. When Calvinism is shown to have logical contradictions, Calvinists usually reply that God's thoughts are unsearchable, and therefore the logical problems that Calvinism has, for example divine election and human responsibility, exhaustive sovereignty and human free will, and God's having two contradictory wills, are solved by invoking the phrase, "well that's a mystery."

If you can solve your logic problems by copping out with the term mystery, why can't the Arminian types, atheists and others pull the same move?

9. The Bible says in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 that reprobates "perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

From your Calvinistic worldview, how can it logically be said that a reprobate refuses to love the truth and so be saved, when your God determines that the reprobate can't love the truth, can't be saved, and therefore doesn't refuse God at all?

10. You have said that nothing thwarts the will of God, and you also have said that a man's will cannot be free or else God would not be absolutely sovereign.

Doesn't this mean that God determines (or is the cause of) evil and the evil acts of men for his sovereign pleasure?

11. In Romans 9 where God says, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" why do you automatically assume that God does not want to have mercy on all but only have mercy on the select few when God clearly tells us in Romans 11:32 that, "God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all?"

If you say that all means all classes of men, but not all men in every class, then why does it not mean all classes of men but not all men in every class in Romans 3:23 where it says, "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?"

" God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say, "0 Lord, Thou knowest." Those things belong to the deep and mysterious profound of God's omniscience. Prying into them may make theologians, but it will never make saints."

A.W. Tozer

I do not think Calvinism confuses people, but rather infuriates them because the flesh has nothing left to boast in, or can take no credit for their spirituality. The teachings of Calvinism exalt God, and His sovereign, immutable will above the folly of man and his supposed wisdom.

One of the things that confuses me is how anyone can reject the headship of Adam into sin and depravity yet expect to have the headship of Christ into truth and grace. These must have one another to work. The race of mankind was doomed in Adam, hence the need for a new race of people, with a new name Christians.

The whole Bible speaks of God's dealings with His people on basis of covenant. God did not deal with the nations surrounding Israel as He did with Israel because they were not in the covenants that He established. In the NT, Christ has fulfilled the terms of the covenant with the Father, and those who are given faith enter into all of the promises of that covenant, but once again it is for God's people whom He has foreknown and predestined to be conformed to their Head. The work was done in eternity and is now being applied in time, consider this verse-
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

When was this? Of course Christ died over 2000 years ago, yet He died for the sins of His people to come.

Consider also this verse-
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Whose sins? The sins of the Church, or the people whom God established the covenant with Christ for. Christ is referred to as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, or in other words, before the world was formed, this was already as if it were done. Now compare that to this-
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The "us" again is the individuals the comprise the Church are they not?

Now as for the notion that a man has free will to come to God on his own, how can any say that when Christ Himself said-
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
(Here's a "whosoever" many tend to overlook)

Jesus would go to say that these who needed to be freed were in fact children of their father the devil, and He reiterated to them that if God was their Father, they would love Christ. Form this we see that men in their natural state do not have God as their Father, and are evil and depraved. They hate Christ, they hate God, and want nothing to do with Him or His ways. However the soul that has been re-born, or born from above as is the Greek, rejoices to serve that which he once hated, and what was at one moment foolishness, now brings great joy. Now this soul has Almighty God as its Father.

Paul went on to write-
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

How then can a man who is a slave be free? Also in light of the latter passages, notice that the man did not set himself free from the slavery. Rather there was a heart change allowing him to obey what was once foolishness to him.

Now consider this-
Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Do you not see that there was nothing to commend us to God? nothing that should have made God choose us, as we were void of any righteousness. Who then may I ask set us free, and released us from the shackles of sin and death, and breathed life into the dead bones of our souls, and changed our heart of stone into a heart of flesh?

If it was you, or your decision(Note, I am not saying that God decides for us, but rather He so changes the will that it now chooses Christ, and apart from this work we never would choose Christ but rather sin), you deny God the glory of His saving you, and take upon yourself a trait that only God Himself possesses- the ability to give life to whom He will.

Now let's look at one last point.

In John 3:3, Jesus tells Nicodemas, " Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The Greek word for again is "anothen" which means "from above", "from a higher source", "again".

Looking at these meanings, it is clear to see that the new birth is not something man manipulates or adds to. For Christ Himself says that unless this birth from above happens, man cannot discern the Kingdom. Consider also that as Paul says in 1 Corinthians, "the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him" (1 Corinthians 2:14), and he also said that the preaching of the Cross is foolishness to those that are perishing, while to us that are save it is the power of God(1 Corinthians 1:18).

In these both, are elements which show us that if God does not "open" the eyes, and make the heart alive, none can see or believe.

Blessings in Christ

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Logic...

I really enjoyed your responses! I don't know that I have ever read a more insightful rebuttal to these sort of doctrinal questions. Thanks!

The more that I study the views of Calvinism, the more I am convinced that many Calvinists do not understand the ETERNAL viewpoint of God. He has always known the end from the beginning. Before He created us, He knew who would ultimately choose to accept His offer to fellowship with Him. Yet this time-confined place called LIFE is burdened with the concept of FREE WILL. If predestination prevented our free will from making any difference in our eternal condition, then Christ would have died in vain.

Thanks for sharing your articulate response! I am neither Calvinist or Arminianist. I am simply a believer who freely chooses to love and serve the one true Living God. But God already knew that -- even before He created the Universe, didn't He?

I have often seen the statement that God foreknew who would choose Him. Where is that verse (s) in the Bible

:-)

Come [i]on[/i] Abe, don't you have anything better to bring up?

but rather infuriates them because the flesh has nothing left to boast in, or can take no credit for their spirituality. The teachings of Calvinism exalt God, and His sovereign, immutable will above the folly of man and his supposed wisdom.

Calvinist or Arminian...

reminds me of

Pharisee or Saducee

I am neither even though I believe parts of both camps doctrine. This is a false dichotomy though, wordly theology camps that I have seen many brothers dragged way off into error in both directions by. Give me a break, I reject both as a whole and accept some parts of each.

The kingdom of God is not in word but in power, the pharisees and saducees could not inherit eternal life through their doctrines and neither can Calvinists or Arminians.

In Christ - Jim

What are you implying?

Nothing implied, just truth.

The fatal flaw in Arminian/Semi-Pelagian thought is that man can add anything to his salvation. This leads into all kinds of lies for instance-

Open theism, after all, God is not sovereignly sovereign, but rather at the whim of man's choices.

Non inspired Scripture, I mean how do we know that God told these men to write what they did. Man has a "free-will" and could have inserted his own thoughts.

Sanctification as the basis for justification, because Christ did not really save you when He died, He only erased what you had done before. But now you must maintain a clean slate, or you will not enter Heaven.

Every Christian is a Calvinist whether they admit it or not simply because God says, "we love Him because He first loved us." This is perhaps one of the greatest verses in Scripture, that Almighty God would pre-love a wretched man as myself.

To accept this verse means conceding to God's foreknowledge of who He would love, and who He would pass by, and it also means that we bow the knee, and understand that we are saved because God in eternity past declared it so, and put us into Christ when He died on Calvary thus assuring the salvation of our souls, not simply making a way of salvation, but rather guaranteeing that those who were in Christ from eternity past, would be saved as time unfolded. It truly is a glorious thing !!!!!

roaringlamb wrote:
I do not think Calvinism confuses people, but rather infuriates them because the flesh has nothing left to boast in, or can take no credit for their spirituality.

The reaseon that Calvinism infuriates me is because it makes god out to be a devilish tirant.

roaringlamb wrote:
The teachings of Calvinism exalt God,

roaringlamb wrote:
One of the things that confuses me is how anyone can reject the headship of Adam into sin and depravity yet expect to have the headship of Christ into truth and grace.

roaringlamb wrote:
Now as for the notion that a man has free will to come to God on his own, how can any say that when Christ Himself said-
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
(Here's a "whosoever" many tend to overlook)

Accordiing to what I heard Calvs say that the "whosoever" is not the entir world. Therefore what do you say that this "whosoever" means?
How do you tell the difference?

roaringlamb wrote:
However the soul that has been re-born, or born from above as is the Greek, rejoices to serve that which he once hated, and what was at one moment foolishness, now brings great joy. Now this soul has Almighty God as its Father.

roaringlamb wrote:
Consider also that as Paul says in 1 Corinthians, "the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him" (1 Corinthians 2:14),

[b]1Corinth 2:14[/b] [color=990000]But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/color]
This inability is like saying that one can not because a refusal to do a prior requirement for the ability to do the other.
Example:
[b]John 14:17[/b] [color=990000]the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you.[/color]
The verse has no implication of inability and one must not asume that it does.

Just as the natural man is not able to know the things of the Spirit of God because the natural man chooses not to receive them.

[b]Recieving is not the same as knowing.[/b]
The reason for the inability of knowing "the things of the Spirit of God" is because of the refusale or unwillingness to recieve them.
There is no inability implied in recieving "the things of the Spirit of God"
Just as:
The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth because chooses not see Him nor know Him.
There is no inability implied in seeing Him(the Spirit of Truth) or knowing Him.
Therefore, the reason of these inabilitis are because of the refusal or unwillingness of seeing Him(the Spirit of Truth) or knowing Him.
and refusal or unwillingness of recieving "the things of the Spirit of God"

Again, the "not seeing Him or knowing Him" does not imply inability, man only chooses not to or is unwilling to see Him or to know Him.
There is no inability to see God or to know Him, because God has has went to great lengths to make sure that all mankind can see Him or know Him.

The foolishness of the things of the Spirit of God does not make a natural man unable to receive them, for he is able to receive them by seeing Him or by knowing Him.

The foolishness of the things of the Spirit of God only makes him unable to know them because because they are spiritually discerned.

[b]NO![/b] God does not, first, need to give the ability(your so called regeneration), otherwise it is an inability until He gives, inreturn, make man inocent because of the inability.

How is it exalting Him when it makes Him creat only to destroy in hell?

Either way brother, you have got to deal with this in the end. God creates people and they sadly perish. Now it is not due to the free-will of man as that does not exist as everyman is bound to what his heart wants which is sin, and apart from God renewing the heart, he will not be set free.

So then it must be that God is a sovereign Creator who does what He will to whom He will. This is why in Romans 9, the verses that say he has mercy on whom He will have the "mercy" as a verb. He mercies whom He will, and no this Chapter is not about nations as the language does not suit this interpretation, and Paul also sums up his argument thus-
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:23 And [b]that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/b]
Romans 9:24 [b]Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

The vessels are people, individuals called from all humanity by His grace.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

According to what I heard Calvs say that the "whosoever" is not the entire world. Therefore what do you say that this "whosoever" means?
How do you tell the difference?

Again brother the "whosoever" must do something, they must believe, which apart from God's work in their heart cannot be done.

Also there is no Greek word that means "whosoever", the literal interpretation would be "that the believing ones would not perish"

I have never said that God has not given Christ to the world(all types of men) Christ is for all types of men, and this is what was so hard for the Jewish people to believe, that Christ would not just redeem Jews, but also Gentiles.

Not yet, the "regenerated" soul still needs to be saved, according to you.
Therefore, you have many born again non-christians running around in limbo until the "choose"

I don't know where I have said this, because I believe the new birth is regeneration, and thus a man is given faith to stretch out his once crippled hand to lay hold of Christ. But this ability comes from God alone.

The fatal flaw in Arminian/Semi-Pelagian thought is that man can add anything to his salvation

No no no no no no no. wrong. Arminianism is NOT Pelagianism or any form of it. Neither is Wesleyanism. Once again, like Abe and the quote in the other thread of Spurgeon, continue to pull the same antics in this "argument." You (intentionally or not) are misrepresenting non-Calvinists in order to strengthen your position. Normally, I try not get involved in these types of discussions, but you are walking a very dangerous line...you are on the verge of condemning to hell whoever disagrees with your Calvinism. Judge not...for what with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.