1Corinth 2:14

This pet scriptur has been used by some people to proove their point an some matter.

I would like to disect this scripture to show that there is no inability for the natural man to come to receive the things of the Spirit of God.

[b]1Corinth 2:14[/b] [color=990000]But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/color]
This inability is like saying that one can not because a refusal to do a prior requirement for the ability to do the other.
Example:
[b]John 14:17[/b] [color=990000]the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you.[/color]
Just as the first verse, the sencond has no implication of inability and one must not asume that they do.

Just as the natural man is not able to know the things of the Spirit of God because the natural man chooses not to receive them.

[b]Recieving is not the same as knowing.[/b]
The reason for the inability of knowing "the things of the Spirit of God" is because of the refusale or unwillingness to recieve them.
There is no inability implied in recieving "the things of the Spirit of God"
Just as:
The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth because chooses not see Him nor know Him.
There is no inability implied in seeing Him(the Spirit of Truth) or knowing Him.
Therefore, the reason of these inabilitis are because of the refusal or unwillingness of seeing Him(the Spirit of Truth) or knowing Him.
and refusal or unwillingness of recieving "the things of the Spirit of God"

Again, the "not seeing Him or knowing Him" does not imply inability, man only chooses not to or is unwilling to see Him or to know Him.
There is no inability to see God or to know Him, because God has has went to great lengths to make sure that all mankind can see Him or know Him.

The foolishness of the things of the Spirit of God does not make a natural man unable to receive them, for he is able to receive them by seeing Him or by knowing Him.

The foolishness of the things of the Spirit of God only makes him unable to know them because because they are spiritually discerned.

[b]NO![/b] God does not, first, need to give the ability(your so called regeneration), otherwise it is an inability until He gives, inreturn, make man inocent because of the inability.

This is according to Scripture...

Amen
In Christ
Jeff

Logic wrote:
This pet scriptur has been used by some people to proove their point an some matter.

I would like to disect this scripture to show that there is no inability for the natural man to come to receive the things of the Spirit of God.

[b]1Corinth 2:14[/b] [color=990000]But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/color]
This inability is like saying that one can not because a refusal to do a prior requirement for the ability to do the other.
Example:
[b]John 14:17[/b] [color=990000]the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you.[/color]
Just as the first verse, the sencond has no implication of inability and one must not asume that they do.

Just as the natural man is not able to know the things of the Spirit of God because the natural man chooses not to receive them.

[b]Recieving is not the same as knowing.[/b]
The reason for the inability of knowing "the things of the Spirit of God" is because of the refusale or unwillingness to recieve them.
There is no inability implied in recieving "the things of the Spirit of God"
Just as:
The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth because chooses not see Him nor know Him.
There is no inability implied in seeing Him(the Spirit of Truth) or knowing Him.
Therefore, the reason of these inabilitis are because of the refusal or unwillingness of seeing Him(the Spirit of Truth) or knowing Him.
and refusal or unwillingness of recieving "the things of the Spirit of God"

Again, the "not seeing Him or knowing Him" does not imply inability, man only chooses not to or is unwilling to see Him or to know Him.
There is no inability to see God or to know Him, because God has has went to great lengths to make sure that all mankind can see Him or know Him.

The foolishness of the things of the Spirit of God does not make a natural man unable to receive them, for he is able to receive them by seeing Him or by knowing Him.

The foolishness of the things of the Spirit of God only makes him unable to know them because because they are spiritually discerned.

[b]NO![/b] God does not, first, need to give the ability(your so called regeneration), otherwise it is an inability until He gives, inreturn, make man inocent because of the inability.

Brother,

Please let me know Scripturally why all men apart from God's working are unwilling to understand, seek or turn to God. You describe correctly the problem without convincing of the cause. Further, if you believe all men, apart from the work of the Spirit, have a will in them to turn to God, then you have a great burden in explaining the necessity of being born again, being a new creature, or haviing a quickening of a spirit within you. All these point to creation of life where there was deadness. What is the meaning of this supernatural event if men are able to turn themselves to God? Are they merely hyperbole. Don't you think it meaningful that in John 3:1 and following, Christ explains to Nicodemas that he must be born again to see ( that is to know ) the kingdom of God and then, He explains the Gospel to Nicodemas in John 3:16?

dear brother whyme, i wrote about this is another thread, but it continues to beg the question...

why does one have to be born again before one is born again?? here is what i mean. you are saying that a natural man cannot and will not choose Christ without a new heart. the new heart comes by the new birth of being born again. so you believe that one needs to be regenerated before one can be regenerated.

epphesians 2:8 tells us that we are saved by God's grace only after we have used faith (as the vehicle) to receive His grace. then we are saved (born again, made anew, etc)

the bible shows these steps to salvation
1) man places faith in God (faith according to the strong's dictionary means reliance upon Christ [b]for salvation[/b]. so one must not be born again or regenerated if one is hoping [b]for salvation[/b])
2) man receives God's grace (which according to strong's dictionary is the favour, gift, graciousness of God)
3) man is saved (born again, made anew, etc).

do you see that the bible tells us that first we must reach out to God with faith (reliance upon God [b]for salvation[/b]/strong's) and receive His grace that will then save us and make us a new creation.

so brother whyme, biblically one cannot be born again to become saved...it just doesn't work out that way.

ps. before you may write back that the natural man would not choose Christ, please know that i agree with you. a man left to himself would not choose Christ. but a natural man who has been drawn by the Holy Spirit and convicted of his sins, may and does sometimes choose Christ. please re-read what i just wrote you and look at ephesians 2 slowly and look at the order of salvation in verse 8 and meditate on it and i believe that it may just change the way you see salvation..

love you brother,
phil

Men love darkness rather than light. We are unable to come to the knowledge of realizing that we need a savior.

How did you, who once lived in darkness, come into the light?

In Christ
Jeff

If we had a choose, then who would be sovereign? God does it all.

In the examples of the testimonies of Cain and Abel, we find that it is God who gives us a choice. Whom do we choose to follow determines who our father is, or whose seed we grow up into.

Cain was exhorted to repent and turn towards God. God warned Cain that if he did not obey, Satan was waiting at the door.

What does Paul mean when he teaches in Romans 1...

Rom. 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

What does it mean that "God gave them over"? Why did God do this? These are essential questions that each of us must face. Whom do we fear, God or man?

In Christ
Jeff

One must only believe, then he is born again.

John 20:29-31 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1 Peter 1:19-23 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

One must only believe, then he is born again.

Who or what leads one to believe?

In Christ
jeff

rookie wrote:
Brother Phillip wrote:

One must only believe, then he is born again.

Who or what leads one to believe?

In Christ
jeff

Brother Rookie,

If I mess up with the chain of salvation, please forgive me.

I start at the end and work backwards. Lastly, Believers choose. Previous to choosing, they trust in Christ. Previous to trusting, they believe. Previous to believing is faith. Previous to faith is understanding the truth. Previous to understanding is having the mind enlightened. Previous to enlightenment is hearing of the word. Previous to hearing is preaching or revelation.

The question of source or cause of choosing by an individual must be traced through this chain. If you look at this process, either as a single even or over a lifetime, it seems based on Scripture's description of the natural man, that he is unable to choose without faith which is from God, he is unable to have faith without understanding which comes from God and he is unable to understand without revelation which is from God.

It seems that in order for all men to have an opportunity to come to Christ that all men would have to recieve sufficient faith and sufficient understanding to choose. I could be argued that men choose to receive the understanding and the faith but it would seem incomprehensible because again choice is at the end of the spectrum of salvific responses by man and not the beginning.

One must only believe, then he is born again.

1) man reaches out in faith to Christ [b]for salvation[/b].
2) man receives God's grace
3) man is saved

such is the order that the bible shows us. looking forward to you responses.. love you guys.

LoveHim wrote:

One must only believe, then he is born again.

that is correct brother phillip. the question is why does calvinism declare that unregerate man (even with help from the Holy Spirit) cannot come to believe in God? that would mean that man must first be regenerated to come to God, but that begs another question... why would one need to be regerated to be regerated?? and if one was already regerated, then why does he need to come to be saved because to be regerated is to already be saved. so it does not add up biblically with ephesians 2:8.. 3 steps

1) man reaches out in faith to Christ [b]for salvation[/b].
2) man receives God's grace
3) man is saved

such is the order that the bible shows us. looking forward to you responses.. love you guys.

Brother, why does Jesus tell Nicodemas in John 3 that one must be born again to "see" ( in the Greek understand or know ) the kingdom of God? Ce

Brother, why does Jesus tell Nicodemas in John 3 that one must be born again to "see" ( in the Greek understand or know ) the kingdom of God?

concerning Jesus and nicodemus, this verse is reminds me of 1 corinthians 2:14. that the unbeliever cannot understand the things of the Spirit. where brother whyme, does it say that an unbeliever cannot understand to be born again?? where does it say that an unbeliever cannot reach out in faith and be saved?? it doesn't brother, you have to read that into it.

an unbeliever will not understand the [b]things, ways[/b] of the Spirit, but it nowhere says that you must be saved before you can be saved, which is what you are saying.. do you see that this is what you are telling someone?? if you can please re-read my post and answer ephesians 2:8, i would be grateful..

thanks brother.
-phil

LoveHim wrote:

Brother, why does Jesus tell Nicodemas in John 3 that one must be born again to "see" ( in the Greek understand or know ) the kingdom of God?

if i answer you brother, will you please answer my questions about ephesians 2:8??

concerning Jesus and nicodemus, this verse is reminds me of 1 corinthians 2:14. that the unbeliever cannot understand the things of the Spirit. where brother whyme, does it say that an unbeliever cannot understand to be born again?? where does it say that an unbeliever cannot reach out in faith and be saved?? it doesn't brother, you have to read that into it.

an unbeliever will not understand the [b]things, ways[/b] of the Spirit, but it nowhere says that you must be saved before you can be saved, which is what you are saying.. do you see that this is what you are telling someone?? if you can please re-read my post and answer ephesians 2:8, i would be grateful..

thanks brother.
-phil

Brother Phil,

I don't think I can answer you in a different way than I have. To me, the choice to believe is based on faith. Faith comes from God. I do not know what you mean by reach out in faith. Faith is the source of the reaching out that you describe. Reaching out is a response, not a cause. Faith is the source. I think if you look at the parable of the sower in Luke, please note that the only faith that endures comes from the sowing of the work into good soil which Luke describes as a "good and noble heart". I have yet to see a good and noble heart ascribed to any unbeleiver. In fact, just the opposite is described. The heart is wicked and deceitful and sinful and spiritually dead in its natural state. I personally believe a good and noble heart is a result of a new supernatural creation ( born again ) producing good soil that the word can take root in and bear fruit. Jesus said that if you can understand this parable or truth, then you can understand all the other parables.

According to Romans 10, faith is not something that originates in us and, thus, we use to "reach" out to Christ.

But faith, "comes" to us, by the preaching of the Word of God.

Faith is a gift. I agree with you, that faith is the vehicle through which we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, but that faith does not originate with us. It is created in us by the preaching of the Word of God.

that is why he tells us it is the gift of God. what is?? His grace that brings salvation.

thanks mahoney,
-phil

brother whyme,

let us distinguish betwen faith and biblical faith. biblical faith is [b]reliance upon Christ for salvation[/b]. but brother everyone has regular faith because faith merely means trust. brother whyme, the unbeliever trust in himself and his works, does he not?? then his faith is in self. the pharisee had a faith, but it was a faith based on his works and his own self-righteousness. but neither the pharisee nor the unbeliever had biblical faith, that is certain.
let us not forget also that there is a dead faith, one that has mental consent to truth but no action to verify it. (my point is to show that there are different kinds of faith).

to say that only the heart that receives the word in faith (biblical trusting in God faith) will produce fruit, then i will agree with you. amen brother, that is true. but to take that parable where it was not meant to go is to misunderstand the passage of salvation in ephesians 2.

I personally believe a good and noble heart is a result of a new supernatural creation ( born again ) producing good soil that the word can take root in and bear fruit.

i hope that i kinda made sense in my replies. forgive me if i don't. thanks for the discussion brother whyme,

your brother in Christ,
phil

I fear this thread is digressing and becoming unedifying.

Let us ask our Heavenly Father to reveal to us which is edifying. Often times we may speak the truth without love and cause much harm, so truth alone is not sufficient. Being right is no excuse. We must always, being spiritual people, seek and lean on the leading of the Holy Spirit.

all i am desiring to do with this thread is hold up ephesians 2:8 and disect it according to the word. if anyone has felt that i have done this in a wrong spirit or if it came across wrongly, then i ask for your forgiveness.

i hope that we can continue discussing these things in a godly manner.

-phil

I start at the end and work backwards. Lastly, Believers choose. Previous to choosing, they trust in Christ. Previous to trusting, they believe. Previous to believing is faith. Previous to faith is understanding the truth. Previous to understanding is having the mind enlightened. Previous to enlightenment is hearing of the word. Previous to hearing is preaching or revelation.

I believe Scripture teaches that it is God through the Holy Spirit who reaches out to us in diverse manners to bring us to the point of decision. Below are testimonies of God's diverse manners of dispensing His grace toward men.

Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, [yet man] perceiveth it not.

Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;

Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

Job 33:17 That he may withdraw man [from his] purpose, and hide pride from man.

Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

Job 33:19 ¶ He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong [pain]:

Job 33:20 So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.

Job 33:21 His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones [that] were not seen stick out.

Job 33:22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.

Job 33:23 ¶ If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:

Job 33:24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:

Job 33:26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

Job 33:27 He looketh upon men, and [if any] say, I have sinned, and perverted [that which was] right, and it profited me not;

Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.

Job 33:29 Lo, all these [things] worketh God oftentimes with man,

Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

Also we have this testimony in Proverbs...

Pro 8:1 ¶ Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

Pro 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

Pro 8:3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

Pro 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice [is] to the sons of man.

Pro 8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

ro 8:6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips [shall be] right things.

Pro 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness [is] an abomination to my lips.

Pro 8:8 All the words of my mouth [are] in righteousness; [there is] nothing froward or perverse in them.

Pro 8:9 They [are] all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Pro 8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

Pro 8:11 For wisdom [is] better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

Pro 8:12 ¶ I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Pro 8:14 Counsel [is] mine, and sound wisdom: I [am] understanding; I have strength.

The 'wisdom of God" is dispensed by the Holy Spirit unto men...our choice is to hear or reject the grace extended towards us.

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff