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Detroit continues to go to hell

sermonindex Sep 10, 2007

This is a quote from the pastor of a mainline denomination in my area (from his web blog). See if you can find the prophetic symbolisms in his words. It would be quite funny if it weren't so sad.

On Monday, I am to play golf with about 130 pastors from the Detroit area. It is an annual outing paid for by a large funeral home and a lot of fun. Two years ago I got a hole in one on a short (102 yards, I think) par three. The next year I missed the green entirely, casting doubt on how much skill vs. luck was involved the previous year.

sermonindex Sep 10, 2007

Gee... and I thought this thread was going to be about the Detroit Lions.

Is it me, Jim, or are you putting yourself in the seat of judgement over this man? So what if he is a pastor AND enjoys golf? To paraphrase Jesus... "Whats that to you?"

I've often written about football and Civil War history (not here... I mean in other venues) So what?

Sometimes I even read a book or two about the Civil War, not for spiritual feeding, but because I enjoy it, and love learning. Dont even try to convince me all you do is sit in prayer all day and read the Bible 10 hours every day. I'm sure you have interests that are not necessarily "spiritual".

And if 130 pastors want to get together on the 18th hole for fellowship... I say good! Better than sitting around criticizing each other.

I guess I dont understand your point...

Krispy

sermonindex Sep 10, 2007


Krispy,

Gee... and I thought this thread was going to be about the Detroit Lions.

Sarcasm

Is it me, Jim, or are you putting yourself in the seat of judgement over this man? So what if he is a pastor AND enjoys golf? To paraphrase Jesus... "Whats that to you?"

More sarcasm and i really get annoyed when Christians say don't judge. I disagree with that. No i won't argue about it or debate it either. It would be just vain babbling on an on both of us and others quoting scripture and getting heated over it which is ridiculous.

Dont even try to convince me all you do is sit in prayer all day and read the Bible 10 hours every day.

More sarsasm

And if 130 pastors want to get together on the 18th hole for fellowship... I say good!

This is one reason why we don't see Revival.

I guess I dont understand your point...

You would have to be in the Spirit to understand.


Don't misunderstand me Krispy, i do love you brother and have gleaned a lot from your writings but on this your wrong. Attitude, sarcasm and not being able to see with the spirit. It's sad. Again i say of your response. This is why we don't see Revival. I do love you brother Krispy and i don't write with hate or malice or to hurt or to offend you but out of love and concern i write, i just disagree with what all you've said.:-(

A
awakenwithin Sep 11, 2007

It would be a delight to see the 130 pastor praying and seeking Gods face. Wow beloved that would be a wonderful thing. America America get on your knees. Get rid of our games, let join the Lords army and fight in prayer and living holy lives. Let give our time to help others. Thinking of other more then ourselves. or maybe feeding the poor. Or reading the bible. Of course there is life, But I we are also at war. Our lives are so short why wasted on foolish things that wast away. Let us run this race with all we got. Our time is the big thing, our hearts in how we spend our time. How many of these pastor would meet to pray? for as much time they played? If they would be praying i don't think they would being playing.. Let pray even more for the pastor in our nation.. Men who are on there knees. Men who willing to give their lives for Christ.
In His love
charlene

sermonindex Sep 11, 2007

Julian...

Actually, brother, my first line about the Lions was humor, not sarcasm.

As to the rest of my post, I'm not saying that these pastors shouldnt be on their faces praying for revival... I'm saying to Jim "how do you know they arent?" So what if they want to get together and play golf?

You see, more than likely Jim took this completely out of context. I coach football. What if I wrote on here about an experience our football team had... and he began to criticize me as only being concerned about football, and not caring a hoot for revival?

He would be completely out of context. Jim doesnt claim to know this pastor he's quoting, doesnt know anything about his ministry, etc etc... yet he picks out one paragraph where he writes about a golf tournament and procedes to pass judgement on this man's life and ministry.

If you dont see anything amiss about this, well... I'm sorry. I see this as the epitomy of a "holier than thou" attitude.

Krispy

R
roadsign Sep 11, 2007

Certainly there are some thoughts expressed that need to be carefully thought through. This CAN be an opoortunity for growth into Christ-like thinking.

I have just one plea: Could you change the thread title. To me it expresses gloom and doom - not where I wish to bring my unsaved friends.

Really this topic is about you trying to grapple with an experience. It is not a divine revelation given to you by God.

Title suggestions: "Just wondering.... " or "How should I view an experience?" etc...

Diane

L
LoveHim Sep 11, 2007

the only thing i thought when i read this is..

on his day off, the pastor wants to meet with other pastors and play golf. that's about it. monday is usually a pastors day off and if that is how he chose to spend that one day off, then that is his perrogative.

it would be nicer to hear that they were all gathering to break down divisions between themselves and their denominations with prayer and true fellowship in Christ, but i am not there and i do not know what's been going on with all of them..

just some thoughts.

sermonindex Sep 11, 2007

He would be completely out of context. Jim doesnt claim to know this pastor he's quoting, doesnt know anything about his ministry, etc etc... yet he picks out one paragraph where he writes about a golf tournament and procedes to pass judgement on this man's life and ministry.

Krispy - you know I love you brother, but I am calling you out publically on this one. First of all I do know the ministry. They are a Church of Christ that runs a bible college that my little sister just had to leave because they have fallen into apostasy and teach the emergent church nonsense over the cross of Christ, sin, rightousness and judgment.

Their college group also goes down to an area where I minister and preaches a false gospel (a way to make them feel they are achieving their social justice goal) to the addicts and homeless that I work with and strenghten them in their sin, causing great harm to the souls of men I love.

I have talked with some of their group, going through the scriptures (including the associate pastor).

Krispy, perhaps there is something in the things that I write that flame the fire around an area that the Lord wants to purge in you? Either that or I have to assume that you greatly dislike me, seeing the absurd (and mean) conclusions that you draw about me.


In Christ - Jim

sermonindex Sep 11, 2007

Krispy - you know I love you brother, but I am calling you out publically on this one. First of all I do know the ministry. They are a Church of Christ that runs a bible college that my little sister just had to leave because they have fallen into apostasy and teach the emergent church nonsense over the cross of Christ, sin, rightousness and judgment.

Nothing in your original post gave any indication that you knew anything about this minister. It was a quotation that you threw out there from someone's blog. How is anyone supposed to guess that you know this man?

I will concede that I could have asked you if you knew this man, but unfortunately because of the way you threw it out there, it never crossed my mind.

If you know this man, and if what you say is true about him, then fine. You should have given us some indication that you have knowledge of whats going on in this ministry.

Or was this a trap all along? ;-)

Krispy, perhaps there is something in the things that I write that flame the fire around an area that the Lord wants to purge in you?

Self flattery will get you no where! :-P

Either that or I have to assume that you greatly dislike me, seeing the absurd (and mean) conclusions that you draw about me.

No, in fact, I was in agreement with you on several topics last week. Or did you forget that already? If there are any issues I have with you I suppose it would be a very critical spirit I sense in your writings at times. Not every little thing is a blasphemey in the face of God. Not every thing any person does is worthy of strong rebuke.

If anyone on this forum has had the wrong (and mean) conclusions drawn about them... it would be me, brother. I've been called everything but a child of God on this forum.

Krispy

H
hisremnant Sep 11, 2007

Praise Jesus!!!!

2ti 3:4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, (lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,)

Somebody mentioned that monday is a pastors day off. Hirelings get mondays off. Those that are called of God are on duty 24/7!

Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

sermonindex Sep 11, 2007

Somebody mentioned that monday is a pastors day off. Hirelings get mondays off. Those that are called of God are on duty 24/7!

Yea, God rested on Day 7:

[b]Genesis 2:2[/b] [i]And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.[/i]

But lets sit here and condemn pastors who dare take a day off for rest and family time. (this is not in reference to the guy Jim is talking about... this is a response to hisremnant)

Perhaps if those who fill the pews week in and week out would actually get off their duffs and do some of the ministry that everyone thinks is the pastor's duty... perhaps the burn out rate for pastors would drop considerably.

Wanna know why revival isnt happening? Because the average pew warmer (commonly called "Christian") thinks that its the pastors job to visit the sick, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoner, etc etc...

And then we condemn pastors for not being on their face weeping for revival? How can they when they dont have time for it because they are doing what all Christians should be doing... but dont.

I find I have less and less in common with most folks on this forum anymore...

Common sense is about to catch the last train out of town on this forum.

Krispy

PS God didnt stop being God when He rested on Day 7, and a pastor doesnt stop being a pastor when he rests and spends time w/ his family either.

C
crsschk Sep 11, 2007

Hesitated remarking anything here when first seeing this. Without taking sides on the matter, Krispy's point is well taken, far too little given at the onset as to the context, impossible for anyone to ascertain anything from it other than ...

... that which leads to a more important point.

Why bother? Why bring this up here? How many, how easy is it to go out and drag in a million examples of similar things ... for what purpose? To create yet another controversy and quarreling?

The point will surely be lost without clarifying, but I am speaking to motivation of the heart and the ease of judging with wrong judgment. It is not about the matter at hand as much as to why ...

Not every little thing is a blasphemey in the face of God. Not every thing any person does is worthy of strong rebuke.

It must be said, there is a spirit of criticism far too often and do note how easily it is that others can jump in on the parade ... [i]they ought to ...[/i]

Bringing in the motivations after the fact might be helpful in clarifying, but I do not know that it helps dispel the compulsion to do so without them.

Their is a speck and log issue here.

C
crsschk Sep 11, 2007

[i]Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?[/i]

Couple of things lingering back ...

"Before and after"

To go back to the beginning here and the replies that followed up to and [i]before[/i] some clarification ... noting the verse above.

To be fair and with some irony perhaps ... From all indications [i]before[/i] the facts presented one would be lead to believe that this had much to do with golf. Just for food for thought and contemplation... What to do or say to the great man of Godly character and thankfully in our present day excellent teaching of Gods word, one Alister Begg? An avid golfer ... Ironically, heard him on the radio on the way in this morning speaking not too little to some of these very matters, of presumption and prejudice and so forth, a search out on the net would find him and todays particular message.

To add more irony perhaps, would have a great deal of issue with that which did come [i]after[/i] the facts were more fully presented, right alongside our brother. That of, if I am not mistaken a prosperity gospel and so forth. In former days found it all a bit chaffing that the church of similar constructs that I attended would put on these golf tournaments and price them so far out of reach for the poor minions like myself that we couldn't participate. It was less some 'worldly amusement' in one sense than the more problematic issue of their teaching, it could be equated certainly to a lack of faith, lack of 'tithing' that we were not 'up there' in their quasi- 'spiritual\\material' domains, this unspoken elitism that was fleeced out from the flock and made them 'rich'.

Just some food for thought...

P.S. Krispy, dear brother ... "This forum ..."

sermonindex Sep 12, 2007

Please read

I also do not post here very much for personal reasons, but I do agree with Krispy. No I do not think Krispy is the all sufficient one, but Krispy is one of the posters' sort of speak that speaks with simple wisdom and the commmon sense as it pertains to life and the word of God.

This is not to lift krispy up nor to defend him, but this is to let others know and understand that we all can be deeply connected with God. You dont have to be a moderator, Leonard ravenhill or any other popular name or title, just simply be used by God.

Now to Post concerning the subject:
None of us need not be so "spiritual but of no earthly good", we need to be able to condescend with men of low estate, high estate, or whatever challenge the Lord will bring before our lives. The key is that we do not subscribe or ascribe to their folly, but God will use us to infuse the Love of God in them.

Now before anyone gets confused with me, do not tell me what God can or cannot do because we do not all know what he is willing to do with us if we"sell out" or place our lives in his hands.

The Lord bless u all.

Another problem of the people concerning the church is that they are like puppets and are not operating in their right mind. We are to be crazy, yes for the Lord, but he is going to use our eyes, hands, heart, and extremities to be crazy with.

EX...I(I) also solicited a brother here for some counseling(just a good ole talk)concerning some issues in my life, not necessarily looking for answers, just a shoulder. By the way, the brother is a moderator or supposedly so spiritual, and I am not afraid to say any of this, be it minded I am calling NO one out, but we want revival soooo bad so we say, but we find it rather hard to function as simple people that God has revealed his love to! I have gotten sick of even much of the so-called revivalists, NOT the REAl ones, but everyone wants revival. Revival is not mechanical nor is it something casual; that will take effect tomorrow per say, the stuff we talk about and the manner in which we all respond is does not express itself as it has been birthed in the same fire as Moses. WE NEED HELP!!!!!!!!

This what the brother told me; "I do not offer counseling unless the Lord leads me". Furthermore, I didn't ask for counseling, also, he referred me to someone locally in the church, as if they can help me even in the slightest with their wonderful theology, games and systems. That isn't not to say they can't , but when ur soul is longing for something of a deep spiritual nature or something out of the ordinary church system or way of conducting spiritual business, then I want the real deal, " I need the brethren ", I need the people of God. Please guys and gals, brothers and sisters lets use the persona, or mind that God gave us to bring him to people. Please no one quote "let this mind be in you which was also in Christ", because that is exactly what i am declaring.

Blessings

:-)


crsschk wrote:
[i]Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?[/i]

Couple of things lingering back ...

"Before and after"

To go back to the beginning here and the replies that followed up to and [i]before[/i] some clarification ... noting the verse above.

To be fair and with some irony perhaps ... From all indications [i]before[/i] the facts presented one would be lead to believe that this had much to do with golf. Just for food for thought and contemplation... What to do or say to the great man of Godly character and thankfully in our present day excellent teaching of Gods word, one Alister Begg? An avid golfer ... Ironically, heard him on the radio on the way in this morning speaking not too little to some of these very matters, of presumption and prejudice and so forth, a search out on the net would find him and todays particular message.

To add more irony perhaps, would have a great deal of issue with that which did come [i]after[/i] the facts were more fully presented, right alongside our brother. That of, if I am not mistaken a prosperity gospel and so forth. In former days found it all a bit chaffing that the church of similar constructs that I attended would put on these golf tournaments and price them so far out of reach for the poor minions like myself that we couldn't participate. It was less some 'worldly amusement' in one sense than the more problematic issue of their teaching, it could be equated certainly to a lack of faith, lack of 'tithing' that we were not 'up there' in their quasi- 'spiritual\\material' domains, this unspoken elitism that was fleeced out from the flock and made them 'rich'.

Just some food for thought...

P.S. Krispy, dear brother ... "This forum ..."

:-)

sermonindex Sep 13, 2007

No I do not think Krispy is the all sufficient one

I'm not?? :-P

P.S. Krispy, dear brother ... "This forum ..."

Yea, Mike... that was me blowing off some steam after several threads I've witnessed that have really been quite frustrating from a theological stand point. Kinda glad SI went off line for a couple of days. Gave me time to walk away from it all.

Krispy

C
crsschk Sep 13, 2007

that was me blowing off some steam after several threads I've witnessed that have really been quite frustrating from a theological stand point.

I know, and that was me not being offended and defending ... again ;-)

sermonindex Sep 13, 2007

Is it me, Jim, or are you putting yourself in the seat of judgment over this man? So what if he is a pastor AND enjoys golf? To paraphrase Jesus... "Whats that to you?"
I have to agree with Krispy here, surely a Pastor can get together with other Pastors and enjoy a yearly outing. With the title of this thread I was expecting something horrific that is causing more people to go to hell.

It sounds like a lot of Pastors are getting together, surely to God they just might affect some people while they are there, maybe the caddy might here a word that is fitly spoken, or whatever, we don't know.

If golfing is a sin, I'd check to see if your legalistic. Legalistic persons do not put their faith in Christ, their faith is in their works and in the performance of others. If they don't line up to their tradition of standards they are judged as evil and then ostracized from the church or from their "inner circle".

Someone will say, "You GOT to have some standards". When Paul was writing the New Testament, he was writing to them so that we would NOT get into a lot of do's and don'ts, after all Christ who took the ordinances of the law and nailed to the cross, would not have created more afterwards because the flesh is still not able to keep any of it.

No, those admonitions were not meant to be kept by the flesh, but to show you and I that these are what those who have the mind of Christ do. If you and I love the LORD our God with all our heart soul mind and our strength and we love our neighbour as ourselves then all that Paul had written down concerning the spirit man should be evident in our lives, it's not a conscience thing that we do, it's automatic, like the term, "second nature". It's not something you think about every morning. We become that virtuous woman in proverbs 31:10.

You'd be surprised where the LORD sends His people, don't limit Him. He may send you into a bar room some day, not as a holy Joe. When Jesus was here according to the flesh, where was He always found? In among sinners. Today He is walking among the whores beggers and homo's. Bidding Us to come and share His love to them, not our standards of holiness, not our way of dress and all the other stupid things that Christendom has conjured up but to share the insatiable love of Christ that Christ loves them regardless of their sin, and while we share this great love, the holy Spirit will be working to convict hearts.

I truly hate the Gospel that we call the gospel today. It's supposed to be a gospel of reconciliation to the heavenly Father. Thats the good news.

It's not, "Oh, I got to keep this, and I got to keep that, I got to do this or do that". Paul said, "You that are spiritual", he is speaking to those that have the mind of Christ. The mind of Christ doesn't have the flesh in mind in working the works of God, it only has one thing on the brain, the good the acceptable and perfect will of God.

It is those that are spiritual that can rightly divide the word of God, they are those who can restore and be a "scab" when a 2by4 is weak. They are those who can properly throw out members that are not moved to repentance when doing wrong and causing the church to err in their error.

M
myfirstLove Sep 13, 2007

Hi Jim,

I understand what you are saying, brother.

Here's an article to encourage you to be ALL HIS.

Every blessing to you for the glory of God.

Lisa

-by G. D. Watson (1845-1924).

If God has called you to be really like Jesus He will draw you into a life
of crucifixion and humility, and put upon you such demands of obedience,
that you will not be able to follow other people, or measure yourself by
other Christians, and in many ways He will seem to let other people do
things which He will not let you do.

Other Christians and ministers who seem very religious and useful, may
push themselves, pull wires, and work schemes to carry out their plans,
but you cannot do it, and if you attempt it, you will meet with such
failure and rebuke from the Lord as to make you sorely penitent.

Others may boast of themselves, of their work, of their successes, of
their writings, but the Holy Spirit will not allow you to do any such
thing, and if you begin it, He will lead you into some deep mortification
that will make you despise yourself and all your good works.

Others may be allowed to succeed in making money, or may have a legacy
left to them, but it is likely God will keep you poor, because He wants
you to have something far better than gold, namely, a helpless dependence
upon Him, that He may have the privilege of supplying your needs day by
day out of an unseen treasury.

The Lord may let others be honored and put forward, and keep you hidden
in obscurity, because He wants to produce some choice fragrant fruit for
His coming glory, which can only be produced in the shade. He may let
others be great, but keep you small. He may let others do a work for Him
and get the credit for it, but He will make you work and toil on without
knowing how much you are doing; and then to make your work still more
precious He may let others get credit for the work which you have done,
and thus make YOUR REWARD TEN TIMES GREATER WHEN JESUS COMES.

The Holy Spirit will put a strict watch over you, with a jealous love, and
will rebuke you for little words and feelings or for wasting your time,
which other Christians never feel distressed over. So make up your mind
that God is an Infinitely Sovereign Being, and has a right to do as He
pleases with His own. He may not explain to you a thousand things which
puzzle your reason in His dealings with you, but if you absolutely sell
yourself to be His love slave, He will wrap you up in Jealous Love, and
bestow upon you many blessings which come only to those who are in the
inner circle.

Settle it forever, then that you are to DEAL DIRECTLY WITH THE HOLY
SPIRIT, and that He is to have the privilege of tying your tongue, or
chaining your hand, or closing your eyes, in ways that He does not seem
to use with others. Now, when you are so possessed with the living God
that you are, in your secret heart, pleased and delighted over this
PECULIAR, PERSONAL, PRIVATE, JEALOUS GUARDIANSHIP AND MANAGEMENT
OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OVER YOUR LIFE, then you will have found the vestibule
of Heaven.
_______________________________________

C
Compton Sep 13, 2007

Hi all,

I find this thread interesting and challenging personally. This thread seems to have landed on that fault line that exists in our convictions between the ideal and the actual. When we look at ourselves, our earnestness eclipses our actions, but when we look at others their actions obscure their intentions.

This is not to say that we should stop striving for the ideal, but only to consider how we respond when we notice the lack of ideal in others. Somewhere between apathy and outrage, there must be a way to rejoice over truth whenever we find it, without cutting one another off whenever we don't find it.

I'm curious, does anyone at SI do any of the following 'non-essential' (non-eternal) activities...

Visit a resturaunt, even a drive through, on a weekly basis.
Purchase a music CD, or download from itunes
Purchase a magazine or book
Watch a television program on average at least once a month
Exercise once a day
Visit an amusement park every few years
See a sporting event even on television
Wrestle with their boys
Take their family shopping
Try on new clothes at the mall
Play paintball with their children and their friends occasionally
Shoot basketball down at the park
Sleep in on Saturday
Visit the beach every couple of years for enjoyment.
Sit in a coffee shop and study
Draw, shoot pictures, write music, or engage in other impractical hobbies.

Well, I do them all...but I'll never admit it here at SI. ;-)

Blessings,

MC

M
myfirstLove Sep 13, 2007

This post has been truly taken the wrong way. Surely its not speaking of the mundane things you have to do, like going shopping for food, clothes ect...
And it is true that the original post could of been posted in another way for more clarity, but I still understand what Jim was wanting to express.

Jesus did say some were called to 30,60 or 100 fold. thats just the truth. And those that Jesus calls to the 100 fold will see/understand things that a lot of 30 fold people cannot understand.

Surely those who are disciples according to the word in the gospels will have no hobbies of the world, but their hobby would be truly things pertaining and leading to eternity in Christ Jesus!

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