Brother I will never understand how you can argue that there is "life" in natural man when the Scriptures declare man is "dead in sin".If you read closly, I do not say that natural man has sppiritual life in him, I am saying that he lost it by himself with his own first sin & not with Adam's sin.
And natural man will not choose anything but sin, because that is what his heart is set upon.
As I said, one may be persuaded.
Our Lord told people things like the following-
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
How do you put up with a devilish tyrant that creates man to destroy in hell?
Your interp. of this would be saying
[b]John 5:21[/b] For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
[b]John 5:40[/b] And I will not let you come to me, that ye might have life
Now in contrast to the last verse, look at the next chapter-
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Again, How do you put up with a devilish tyrant that creates man to destroy in hell?
Whom ever the Father does not give to the son was created for hell and are only doing what they were created to do, and that is to sin.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will(desire to) do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Now notice what Jesus says-
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Your interp. of this would be saying:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, of whom I created you to be of.
I made him a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, I don't let you believe me...
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because I created you not of God.
Now in regard to Adam and his offspring, after he fell, there was not only physical death, but spiritual as well. Then in [b]Genesis 5[/b] we read-
"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:"(v3)No longer in the image of God because of Adam's sin, but rather after the image of Adam, sinful and dead in sin. Now what difference there is between this and Cain and Abel, I do not know, but it is safe to say that even those two show the sin that came into man and his descendants.
[b]Gen 9:6[/b] [color=990000]Whoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.[/color]
[b]James 3:9[/b] [color=990000]With this bless we God, even the Father; and with this curse we men, who are made after the similitude of God.[/color]
God still reguards all manking in HIS image.
Yes and this is the work of God in regeneration of the heart. He removes the heart of stone that hates God and His laws, and replaces it with a heart of flesh that is now alive and has His law written upon it.
This new heart believes in Christ, and will seek to please Him, and follow Him. What was once foolishness(loving and obeying God)is now joyous.
The regeneration of the heartsalvation. Therefore, in that respect, yes one is able to be persuaded to move from his original will to will to be in Christ.
But look at what John says about those who go out-
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
He was talking about antichrists.
Brother does it not bother you that you are putting forth an idea that has multiple times been labeled heresy by the Church?
Does it not bother you that your god is a devilish tyrant?
]Not only did the Protestants find this unscriptural, but so did the Roman Catholics at first. Sadly though they as well as the Church at large today have been taken into the Pelagian captivity and see no harm in it.
I am not fully Pelagian!
I am only Putting fourth common sence as also Lazarus1719.
I'm glad it is not only me who has a level head in this forum.
You are the one putting the guilt of the sin of man onto God, while I am keeping it on man.
Just as the opening post in this thread is to do.
If man has no fallen state in Adam, he needs no salvation in Christ because he can ultimately save himself by his obedience to the Law.
I am not denying the fallen state of man, I am only defining it as ones own fault for his own fall, not some distant relitives fault.
Furthermore, I am not claimming that man can save himself by the law.
I am attempting to say that man can only choose to do good if his will is in Christ.
Man has free will; however, while one may will to do good, he is unable to do the good that he wants to do. [b]Rom 7:19[/b] [color=990000]I don't do the good that I actually want to do, but I do the evil that don't want to do.[/color]
For anyone without faith may will to do good or evil, for the natural man can not until he chooses to first have faith in Christ for the ability. Only until man chooses to put his faith in Christ he will stay a slave of sin.
The will is crippled in doing any good until the will is in Christ. After our will is to be in Christ (which is to have faith) we, then, will have a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works(fruit) that give a testimony of Christ in you.
Yes, man can have a will to do both good and evil from birth regardless, however as I have shown, forgive me for repeating myself, the will is crippled in doing any good because of the flesh. Only untill the will is in Christ is there any ability to do good, and the only good is in faith and walking after the spirit.
The bottom line is, man wills to do good but is incapable untill he chooses to submit to God.
If indeed his sin is only his own, and he is born without sin, then he could perceivably live without sin and be another sinless one could he not?
No!
How would one not sin if one has not faith in Chrisat?
If indeed his sin is only his own, and he is born without sin, He must know Christ to have Eternal Life(John 17:3). He must know Christ in order not to sin and walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit(Rom 8:1b).
Those who are born are born of the flesh and the flesh needs to be delt with.
[b]Rom 8:3-4[/b] [color=990000]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[b]:4[/b] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/color]
