For those who refuse to call the Catholic Church a false religion

In his Sunday address on August 26, Pope Benedict XVI said that salvation is [b]by works[/b] and [b]Mary is "Heaven's Gate."[/b]

Of salvation he said: "The path to the eternal life is open to all, but it is narrow because it's demanding, asks for commitment, abnegation, and the mortification of selfishness... it is not on the basis of alleged privileges that we shall be judged but on the merit of our deeds. ... [Good works] is the 'passport' that will let us enter eternal life" ("All can enter eternal life, but the door is narrow," Catholic
News Agency, Aug. 27, 2007).

Of Mary, the Pope said, "Christians call upon Her as Ianua Caeli, Heaven's Gate."

In fact, salvation is a gift of God's grace and Mary has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.

The apostle Paul said: [i]"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"[/i] (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Thus, salvation is a gift of God's grace that was purchased by Jesus Christ and is received by faith. Good works follow after as the evidence and fruit of genuine salvation. To add works to God's grace for salvation is to [b]pervert[/b] the gospel and to bring upon oneself the curse of Galatians 1. [i]"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed"[/i] (Galatians 1:6-8).

Krispy

Here is an interesting article about where the Catholic teachings, and false gods, also Queen of heaven etc come from. It is worth the read in understanding Mystery Babylon....That woman Jezebel, and false pagan religions getting into the Church.

http://www.gospelcenterchurch.org/babylonmysteryreligion.html

Love in Christ
Katy-Did
:-)

I was going to reply to Hope... but Roaringlamb did a much better job than I would have.

Thanx for batting clean-up for me, RL! lol...

Krispy

that is right everyone...

just ask Jesus into your heart then know that we have this nice little doctrine called once saved always saved... its great just repeat this little prayer after me...

just disregaurd all the parts of scripture that warn us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, not to shipwreck our faith, that we must stand strong to the end to be saved... just erase those parts.

Catholics also believe that Jesus is the son of God. Not everything they believe is wrong.

You have no idea how much I wish you and Krispy would be saved.

So now you're in the business of judging people's salvations? You know my heart?

C'mon... get real.

This whole forum is really getting out there on the fringe. I'm beginning to think that perhaps I need to step away for awhile cuz I find myself getting more and more frustrated by what I see here.

Krispy

...nevermind.

Krispy

Hi Krispy,

Is there a link to the sermon you quoted in your opening post, please?

Catholic News Agency, Aug. 27, 2007

Krispy

Sister HopePurifies,

I think you may have misunderstood Krispy's meaning.

What you quoted from James is (of course) [i]not[/i] a perversion of truth, and it ties in with the good works which are mentioned in Ephesians 2, that we are to walk in [i]after[/i] we are saved.

In the context of the Ephesian people, that is, they (we) are to do this [i]instead of[/i] idolatry (drinking, sexual immorality, greed for personal gain) now that they (we) are saved.

James is dealing with something more though, at a doctrinal level, by saying that people who have faith will demonstrate their faith by their good works... Becoming a believer and ceasing to keep the outward works of the law (Old Covenant), doesn't mean we just sit around all day saying nice things to each other, but, that we are practical (for instance), by sharing our wealth to meet the needs of others.

(Although Paul's doctrinal point in Romans 6 is very different, it's the same sort of reasoning that he was writing against... that people might think that now they were believers, they didn't [i]need[/i] to give up sin, because grace would extend to forgive them again.... ([i]because[/i] they believe). Whereas, [i]because[/i] we understand how serious sin is, and how Jesus' death gives us power [u]over[/u] sin, we are to STOP sinning... :-o )

The other place that Krispy quoted, from Galatians, was dealing with yet another mindset, namely that of Jews who had been born again, but who had reverted to keeping Old Covenant legal practices as a means of trying to please God [i]instead[/i] of [u]walking in the Spirit, in the good works of Ephesians 2 and James[/u].

There is another reference in the New Testament in Hebrews 6, which reminds the reader to move on from their first repentances from 'dead works', towards perfection, in love labouring to minister (serve) and being established in hope of inheriting the promises through faith. ('Dead works' include pretty much any activity which a person might do to try to gain favour in God's sight [i]separate from faith[/i]),

I trust you can see (by these examples) that 'works', in scripture, is a minefield. Its relevance to Catholicism as a religious system, is that despite celebrating Christ's death regularly, no Catholic is given to believe that His death is sufficient to atone for their sin. They [i]must[/i] do good works [u]as well[/u] [i]in order to be saved[/i].

To give a further scriptural context, Paul mentions the works of [u]saved[/u] men as falling into one of two categories: either they will be eternally enduring, or, they will be shown as worthless when they burn up in the fire of God's judgement. Those men whose works survive the fire, will receive a reward (as well as salvation). These are the works which God ordained as part of His call to us to serve Him (in the manner described in Ephesians, I believe), which are relevant for all believers.

I Corinthians 3:9 - 15
For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, [i]you are[/i] God's building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation [i]with[/i] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on [i]it[/i] endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

It is typical of the leadership of the Catholic church over many centuries, to imply a scriptural basis for its instruction to its flock-members. But usually, closer examination shows that biblical concepts are [i]mixed up[/i] to the extent that the claim of honest scriptural basis is hard to justify (sometimes because there has been a curse added by Catholic church tradition, to anyone who believes the scripture in its fulness and true meaning).

In this case, the Pope's reference to receiving reward for one sort of good works is scriptural - but... not the sort of good works which the Catholic church requires of its members as a contribution to their claim for basic [i]salvation[/i].

I know you didn't ask, but I hope this breakdown of biblical 'works' references has made clearer the meaning of the differences between the 'works' in the leading post.

I think it's quite important to understand also, that while 'rewards' are scriptural, the parable of the unprofitable servant is probably where [i]we start![/i]

Thanks Krispy. Here is a link. Truly, much of what he said appears true, but, it is wreathed in conditions rather than proclaiming a free gift.

[url=http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=10216]http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=10216[/url]

Worship of MOTHER & CHILD spread from Babylon to the ends of the earth, but were called different names in the languages of the various counties where their worship appeared. The ancient Germans worshipped the virgin HERTHA with the child in the arms of his mother. The Scandinavians called her DISA pictured with her child. In Egypt, the mother and her child were worshiped as ISIS with the infant OSIRIS or HORUS seated on his mother's lap. In India, the mother and child were called DEVAKI and KRISHNA, and also ISI and ISWARA as they are worshiped to this day. In Asia, they were known as CYBELE and DEOIUS; in pagan Rome, as FORTUNA and JUPITER-PUER, or the boy JUPITER; in Greece, as CERES, the great mother with babe at her breast, or as IRENE, the goddess of peace, with the boy PLUTUS in her arms. Even in Tibet, China, and Japan, Jesuit missionaries were astonished to find the Roman counterpart of MADONNA and child. SHING MOO, the holy mother in China was portrayed with a child in her arms and a glory around her.

All this began with Nimrod, the Tower of Babel, in the Beginning of Genesis. The people were scattered, but took the pagan religion with them. Catholocism and ALL of their symbols, sacraments, etc, are taken form the pagan religions....now in Revelation called MYSTERY BABYLON.

We are called to come out of them!

In his Sunday address on August 26, Pope Benedict XVI said that salvation is by works and Mary is "Heaven's Gate."

It goes BEYOND.

The Islamic Bible has a whole chapter on Mary. Now we have the apparitions of Mary, appearing to people, as did happen long ago in Egypt as well.( I suppose this is why they acknowledge her).

Other interesting facts connecting the Catholic Church and Islam:

Reading Islam.com - Ask A...
No faith or holy book has honored Virgin Mary and held her in high esteem as did Islam and the Holy Qur’an, not even the Bible. A full-chapter of the Qur’an ...
www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=11239... - 47k - Similar pages
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996016088&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

http://www.reformation.org/vatican-and-islam.html

A full-chapter of the Qur’an was titled Maryam (Arabic of Mary). You would also find that simply many Muslims love to call their daughters Maryam out of love and respect.

Mystery Babylon is all of this false pagan religion that began with Nimrod and the building of a Tower reaching to Heaven.

Just as that WOMAN Jezebel was fed to the dogs, Revelation says, all of this will be fed to the fouls of the air called the "Great Supper Of God".

Thank you for Listening
Katy-Did

PS: Added for content:

I trust you can see (by these examples) that 'works', in scripture, is a minefield. Its relevance to Catholicism as a religious system, is that despite celebrating Christ's death regularly, no Catholic is given to believe that His death is sufficient to atone for their sin.

They must do good works as well in order to be saved.It is typical of the leadership of the Catholic church over many centuries, to imply a scriptural basis for its instruction to its flock-members. But usually, closer examination shows that biblical concepts are mixed up to the extent that the claim of honest scriptural basis is hard to justify (sometimes because there has been a curse added by Catholic church tradition, to anyone who believes the scripture in its fulness and true meaning).

In this case, the Pope's reference to receiving reward for one sort of good works is scriptural - but... not the sort of good works which the Catholic church requires of its members as a contribution to their claim for basic salvation.

NOTHING the CATHOLIC Church teaches is Scriptural. Counterfeit is counterfeit.

Their Mary is NOT the Mary of Scripture and their Jesus is not the Jesus of scripture. Giving them the same name does not make that a reality.

WE ARE WARNED:
Luke 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Their works are based on the following article of paganism.

The CLASH of Two Kingdoms, one is Satan's one is God's.

The Mountains in Revelation are the Mountains of these Paganism beliefs who come together and give their power to one...anti-christ. We see it working together even now. With so much paganism brought into the Church, New Age, Hindu, etc., is the great Apostasy or falling away.

Come out of her, God warns, and be not judged with her. Mystery Babylon. The Mysteries of paganism from the beginning of Genesis.

This was always a condemnation to Israel. When Israel left Egypt, others came with them, who were the Instigators of those who made the Golden Calf. Jeremiah's warning to those who sacrificed to the Queen of Heaven.....all has continued to be with us.

http://www.gospelcenterchurch.org/babylonmysteryreligion.html

In his Sunday address on August 26, Pope Benedict XVI said that salvation is by works and Mary is "Heaven's Gate."

A web site on more of how Mary became what she is today in Catholicism.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/ce1008.html

With many of these Titles, they actually believe her to be savior of the World, the GATE to Heaven.

Here are SOME of the Titles given to Mary in the Catholic Church. All "Pagan" if you look closely at the two.

There is a list A-L i'll have to locate.

One is:
ARK of the Covenant

Here is the list of M-W

Mother and Virgin
Mother Most Admirable
Mother Most Amiable
Mother Most Chaste
Mother Most Pure
Mother Inviolate
Mother of Christians
Mother of Christ's Members
Mother of Divine Grace
Mother of God
Mother of Good Counsel
Mother of Jesus Christ
Mother of Men
Mother of Our Creator
Mother of Our Head
Mother of Our Saviour
Mother of the Church
Mother of the Mystical Body
Mother of Wisdom
Mother Undefiled
My Body's Healing
My Soul's Saving
Mystical Rose
Nativity of the Blessed Virgin
Nature's Re-Creation
Nature's Restoration
Neck of the Mystical Body
Never Fading Wood
New Eve
Notre Dame Cathedral of Paris
Notre Dame of Chartres
Notre Dame of Easton
Nourisher of God and Man
Olive Tree of the Father's Compassion
Only Bridge of God to Men
Our Immaculate Queen
Our Lady, Gate of Heaven
Our Lady, Help of Christians
Our Lady, Mother of the Church
Our Lady, Queen of All Saints
Our Lady, Queen of the Apostles
Our Lady in America
Our Lady Mediatrix of All Grace
Our Lady of Africa
Our Lady of Altotting
Our Lady of Bandel
Our Lady of Bandra
Our Lady of Banneux
Our Lady of Baeuraing
Our Lady of Calvary
Our Lady of Charity
Our Lady of Consolation
Our Lady of Copacabana
Our Lady of Coromoto
Our Lady of Czestochowa
Our Lady of Europe
Our Lady of Fatima
Our Lady of Good Help
Our Lady of Grace
Our Lady of Guadalupe
Our Lady of Guadalupe of Estramadura
Our Lady of High Grace
Our Lady of Hungary
Our Lady of Japan
Our Lady of Kevelaer
Our Lady of Knock
Our Lady of La Leche
Our Lady of La Vang
Our Lady of Las Vegas
Our Lady of LaSallette
Our Lady of Limerick
Our Lady of Loreto
Our Lady of Lourdes
Our Lady of Lujan
Our Lady of Madhu
Our Lady of Mariazell
Our Lady of Mercy
Our Lady of Montserrat
Our Lady of Mount Carmel
Our Lady of Mount Carmel at Aylesford
Our Lady of Nazareth
Our Lady of Peace
Our Lady of Perpetual Help
Our Lady of Pompei
Our Lady of Pontmain
Our Lady of Prompt Succor
Our Lady of Providence
Our Lady of Ransom
Our Lady of Safe Travel
Our Lady of Salambao
Our Lady of Shongweni
Our Lady of Sorrows
Our Lady of Tears
Our Lady of Victory
Our Lady of Walsingham
Our Lady of the Americas
Our Lady of the Assumption
Our Lady of the Cape
Our Lady of the Gulf
Our Lady of the Hermits
Our Lady of the Highways
Our Lady of the Holy Souls
Our Lady of the Incarnation
Our Lady of the Kodiak and the Islands
Our Lady of the Milk and Happy Delivery
Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal
Our Lady of the Pillar of Saragossa
Our Lady of the Pines
Our Lady of the Prairie
Our Lady of the Presentation
Our Lady of the Rosary
Our Lady of the Snows
Our Lady of the Turumba
Our Lady of the Valley
Our Lady of the Wayside
Our Lady of the Woods
Our Lady Who Appeared
Our Own Sweet Mother
Paradise Fenced Against the Serpent
Paradise of Innocence and Immortality
Paradise of the Second Adam
Paradise Planted by God
Patroness and Protectoress
Perfume of Faith
Preserved From All Sin
Protectress From All Hurt
Queen of All Saints
Queen of Angels
Queen of Creation
Queen of Heaven
Queen of Heaven and Earth
Queen of Martyrs
Queen of Peace
Queen Unconquered
Refuge in Time of Danger
Refuge of Sinners
Reparatrix
Reparatrix of Her Parents
Reparatrix of the Lord World
Rich in Mercy Rose Ever Blooming
Sacred Heart of Mary
Sanctuary of the Holy Spirit
Scepter of Orthodoxy
Seat of Wisdom
Second Eve
Singular Vessel of Devotion
Sister and Mother
Source of Virginity
Spiritual Vessel
Spotless Dove of Beauty
Star of the Sea
Star That Bore the Sea
Suppliant for Sinners
Surpassing Eden's Gardens
Surpassing the Heavens
Surpassing the Seraphim
Sweet Flowering and Gracious Mercy
Tabernacle of God
Tabernacle of the Word
Temple Divine
Temple Indestructible
Temple of the Lord's Body
Theotokos
Throne of the King
Tower of David
Tower of Ivory
Tower Unassailable
Treasure House of Life Treasure of Immortality
Treasure of the World Undefiled
Undefiled Treasure of Virginity
Undug Well of Remission's Waters
Unlearned in the Ways of Eve
Unplowed Field of Heaven's Bread
Unwatered Vineyard of Immortality's Wine
Vessel of Honor
Victor Over the Serpent
Virgin Inviolate
Virgin Most Faithful
Virgin Most Merciful
Virgin Most Powerful
Virgin Most Prudent
Virgin Most Pure
Virgin Mother
Virgin of Charity
Virgin of Copacabana
Virgin of Virgins
Wedded to God
Woman Clothed With the Sun
Workshop of the Incarnation

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Added for Content

The catholic church argues that the "woman" of Genesis 3:15 is referring to Mary. This is often linked to the Woman of Revelation 12 being a reference to Mary. As shown in the article on The Woman of Revelation 12, that link is not valid, because the woman is not Mary. It is also said that, since Christ was the "seed" of Mary, then Genesis 3:15 has to be a reference to Mary. In this article I would like to look at the woman and the seed in Genesis chapter 3 to show that this is not consistent with Scripture as a whole and is therefore not a true interpretation.
I will begin by quoting Genesis 3 in its proper context, since the standard catholic argument uses a very limited portion of the passage and does not include the full context.

Genesis 2:15-3:20 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
God placed the newly created man, Adam, in the Garden to tend it. God looked on the man and said that it was not good that the man should be alone so, after creating the animals and not finding a suitable partner, He made a "helper" for the man. When Adam named her, he said, "she shall be called Woman". At this point the designation woman was a title of sorts, a way of identifying the person. Adam did not say, "she is a woman". He said, "she shall be called Woman", not what she was, but who she was. This single woman is called only "woman" in Genesis 2:22-23; 3:2; 3:4; 3:6; 3:12-13; and 3:15-16.

She is identified as Adam's wife in Genesis 2:25; 3:8; 3:17; and 3:20. Adam is identified as the husband of the woman in Genesis 3:8. The woman never receives a name, Eve, until Genesis 3:20 The evidence is sufficiently inter connected and related. It is massively inconsistent to promote the woman of Genesis 3:15 as Mary when every other facet of the passage has been shown to use the word woman in reference to Eve, Adam's wife, created as a "helper" for him.

Catholicism will tell you that when Christ called Mary "woman" in John 2:4 that He was creating a connection between Mary and the woman of Genesis 3:15. As we can see, Eve is only called woman in the entire passage surrounding Genesis 3:15 because she did not have a name yet.

In addition, Christ called four other females "woman" in the Gospels and no attempt at linking them to Mary is ever made. They are The Samaritan woman at the well in John 4:21, The Caananite woman with a possessed daughter in Matthew 15:28, The crippled woman of Luke 13:12, and the woman caught in the act of adultery of John 8:10.

Woman was actually a term of endearment in the first century, and, as shown, Christ did not use it exclusively of Mary. The catholic attempt to build a marianistic belief on this word "woman" is very weak and inconsistent.

It is also argued that since the seed mentioned in Genesis 3:15 is speaking of the Messiah that the woman must be Mary. This is not the correlation intended by the Scripture. As is the standard I consistently adhere to, we might go to the Scripture to determine the intent of the reference to seed.

Genesis 9:9-12 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
The seed spoken of are the descendants of Noah.

But not just immediate descendants but, as evidenced by v.11-12, to every descendant of Noah for perpetual generations. The use of the term seed does not necessarily intimate a one generation span in the relationship of the ascendant and descendant members referred to.

Henry Drummond (whose material is largely out of print now) makes a comment about the sadness of observing a Christian pirouette through life on a single verse, so let's see what else Scripture has to say about seed.

Genesis 13:15-16 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Here we see God making a promise to Abram and his seed. Once again, it is not the immediate offspring of Abraham, but his descendants forever. Other references to Abram/Abraham's future seed can be found in Genesis 15:3, 15:5, 15:13, 15:18, 16:10, 17:7-10, 17:12, 21:12, 22:17-18, and 24:7.

In Genesis 17:19 the Scripture speaks of Issac's seed. Significantly, God clarifies the covenant as applying to Abraham's seed through Issac, the son of the promise. There are many, many other verses that provide further proof of the point I make here...that The use of the term seed does not necessarly intimate a one generation span in the relationship of the ascendant and descendant members referred to.

I would like to continue along the path of this investigation of the term "seed" in the Scriptures by focusing on the seed of Abraham and some New Testamant material that refers to it. Speaking of Christ, the author of Hebrews states...

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Paul also speaks most decisively concerning the seed of Abraham...

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Here we see the Scripture referring to Christ as the seed of Abraham. Christ was no more directly the seed of Abraham than He was the seed of Eve, but He is called such. The parent/child relationship is not a requirement for use of the term "seed" in Scripture.

To draw the conclusion that the only consistent interpretation of woman/seed in Genesis 3:15 is Mary/Jesus is to impose an artificial restriction on Scripture. Just because Christ is the seed, it is no more necessary for the woman of Genesis 3:15 to be Mary than it is for Abraham to be Jesus' father. A consistent exegesis of Scripture clearly shows that just because the Messiah was born of Mary it is not indicative that He was the seed of Genesis 3:15.

[b][color=CC0000]To conclude, Genesis 3:15 is a prophecy of the Messiah. Catholicism makes a number of convoluted and inconsistent attempts to turn the verse into a prophecy of Mary, but on closer examination those attempts fall apart and can not be supported using the word of God as a standard.[/color][/b]

But this too will be part of the great /delusion/ deception, those God will allow to believe the lie. 2 Thess 2. ( because they received not the Love of the Gospel that they might be saved.