Where is the Patience?

Saints,

This is not a new phenomenon, but rather one that rises and falls like the tides. What I am speaking of is the tone we address one another with on these forums. I have noticed alot of really inflammatory comments, lack of patience, and lack of love in some responses.

My question is what do we think we are winning?

Surely we can present our beliefs without killing each other!

Murray

murdog wrote:
Saints,

This is not a new phenomenon, but rather one that rises and falls like the tides. What I am speaking of is the tone we address one another with on these forums. I have noticed alot of really inflammatory comments, lack of patience, and lack of love in some responses.

My question is what do we think we are winning?

Surely we can present our beliefs without killing each other!

Murray

Murray,

Can we?
Though you are right you have brought something to light that is going to get worse before it gets better.
What we are seeing is much like the battle that goes on continuously between the right and left political groups. They attack and blame one another for the mess and neither come forth with a solution because they are to busy blaming one another.
With so called Christians it is much the same and Jesus said it would be, the difference is; those who trust in the things of the world, will eventually stop accusing and name calling, and start killing true children of God, thinking they do God a service.

John 16:1-3
These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. [2] They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. [3] And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

1 John 2:11
But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

This is the world in the true church, and they will be the ones who turn those of the truth over to the powers of this world, for this is all they know. It is always someone else’s fault when one does not know the truth.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Sad to say brother, but it will only get worse as the day approaches, thank God we were left with these encouraging words from our Lord.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

In His Love
pastorfrin

My question is what do we think we are winning?

You are correct and i personally feel obligated from the lord to test my heart on posts and responses on this web site, this is a great place to have real fellowship with real devoted christians. If our responses are not edifing to each others spirits and are given through worldy eye's and understanding we will kill each other.

If i have done this in my own postings then i will recieve this as a rebuke from the lord and humble myself so that the lord maybe glorified.
if i haven't done this then i will always test my spirit in future posts to whether i am giving is a responce in season or out of season.

May the lord be Glorified in all that we do!

Brother,
I there is great depth into this...
How do we love? What say comes from our hearts?
Something we are not acting out love...
It dosn't matter what some post we owe nothing but love, if a brother wrong or " caught in any transgression you who are spiritaul should restore him in a spirit of gentlness" gel 6:1
Love is patient, kind love dose not envy or boast it is not arrogant or rude it does not insist on its own ways it is not irritable or resenful it does not rejoice in wrong doing but rejoices with the truth love bears all things hope all things edures all things"

This the greatest love to lay down his life for you for...

I think if we learn the depth of love in changes our heart, and so our words.

Do dear say anything that will hurt others?
what is our lip for?

Our tongue are for what?
To pray with ...
To praise with ..
"keep their tongues from evil and their lips
from speaking deceit"
Tongue shall " tell of righteousnes and your praise all day long"
Guard " their ways that they may not sin with their tingue I will guard my mouth with a muzzle so long as the wicked are in my persence"

mouth to be filled with laughter
shouts of joy...
"come wisdom and teaching of kindness is on her tongue"

"bridle their tongues"
Will we have self control " control their own body in holiness and honor"

we can serve one other by words we speak..
" but though love serve one another"

to have a humble heart when we speak
" But far be it from me to boast expect in the our Lord Jesus Christ" gal

" how great a forest is set a ablaze by such a small fire and the tingue is a fire a world unrighteousness" " with it we bless our lord and father and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God" james

If we speak we should speak with words from God...peter
So therefore may our words be used to stir each other on to run this race even harder...

"And let us condsider how to stir up one another to love and good works not neglecting to meet together as is habit of some" heb

In his love
charlene

the tone we address one another with on these forums.

One important lesson I've learned in business is that the same group of people will respond differently towards one another depending on the system they find themselves in. For instance, when earnest people in an office environment start feeling anger or resentment or misunderstanding, an experienced manager resists the urge to challenge their character untill he has inspected the systems and processes he has asked them to perform in.

We know the forum is not only a group of people, but people connected by a very specific system. When we ask people to engage us in written text we must assume our share of responsibility for the limitations and shortcomings of this system, and manage our expectations appropriately of their sincere efforts to respond to our requests.

As a system the forum is a very narrow and limited interface compared to just a simple face to face talk over a cup of coffee. Words here move slower and more deliberately, they are spelled out and seem more literal to the reader then they would be to the ear in a spoken conversation. In a face to face conservation I can respond in real time to any offense, surprise, or lack of interest I might elicit...in the forum we are trading words in slow motion, even though our thoughts and our emotions are still racing in real time.

In face to face talking we unconsciously establish a vast number of 'data points' to help people connect the dots to our heart and minds...the tone and pitch of our words, our facial expressions, our volume, our speed, ect. But in the forum we are limited to far less data points and therefore must be willing to give permission for extrapolation. We must accept that our audience is going to be forced to add their own data points outside of the ones we established. Sometimes the results can be quite surprising, ...and also aggravating. Still, we must accept the risks before we post.

A few of us are more skilled at establishing before hand the method that we used to create our data points, narrowing the distance between the points, and in these circumstances the quality of extrapolation is much higher. For instance, when we establish a conversation upon a shared commitment to scriptural exegesis we can discuss even sharp disagreements with precision and clarity. On the other hand if we want to discuss our personal opinions or convictions about politics or music, we cannot assume everyone has the same a priori knowledge of our unique and subjective 'process', and therefore we should tolerate some 'extrapolation error.' In giving an opinion we might be thinking in a small finite domain, but then someone extrapolates what we say infintely and totally misunderstands our idea.

This potential for misunderstanding is HUGE and shouldn't be taken as personal. (Though I still do!) Another way of appreciating how difficult online communication can be is to consider that corporations will spend tens of thousands of dollars performing usability testing on their websites, to make sure there are no misunderstandings latent in their content. Now consider that the 'content' we rifle off here everyday at one another is much more complicated and much more subjective, with virtually no standards of terminology or formatting, then most business sites.

Really, I am pleasantly amazed how well this place funtions on the whole, my own failures not withstanding . If I were setting up a vitual or collaborative online environment for a business application, I would never dream that a system with so few rules, and with no screening, training, and minimal supervision for the participants, would function as consistently as this place does given the amount of subjective communication that flows here. I think we have more grace then we give one another credit for.

So before we are tempted to think we have no love for one another, and start making a mental list of the sheep and the goats, I think we should see our conflicts in a less sensational light. In my opinion, we are all friends in this place. No one wants to hurt anyone here, which is a frequent feeling that can quickly escalate dialogue into demagogy. We might get impatient with one another in this environment, but over a cup of coffee we would regard each other in a much better light. ;-)

MC

Last night I watched “Pirates of the Caribbean” with my nephews. To me it was a long and complicated affair centered on conflict and evil – not unlike the drama of human existence. Much of the time I had no clue what was going on and had to be prompted by my nephews. Still, what caught my attention was the treasure: a heart of flesh – beating and alive – yet separated from the body. The characters seemed to be fighting over this thing, (among other things) Swords were flashing all over. Apparently: He who has the heart rules the sea.

That reminded me of a comment I made in the “Detroit” thread - about the solution for our hard-hearted insensitivity to each other: We need God to give us a heart of flesh – which, of course, is revival. Like in the movie, this “heart of flesh” is hiding in a treasure chest, and we are all passionately seeking after the chest. And yet, we naturally tend to go after this treasure with our swords, even trampling on each other in the process. But a vulnerable, tender heart cannot survive in this atmosphere, and so we risk losing revival in our fight for it!

We cannot “capture” this thing called revival by following our natural passion to “rule the sea”. We do not conquer the thing by trampling over each other in order to get to the victory line. That process merely toughens the calluses of our hearts as we try to protect ourselves from each other’s verbal swords. And that makes us even more insensitive to the other parts of our Body, that is, each other. That drives the wedge (dividing wall) deeper between us and fellow sinners – including those ‘worldly Christians out there”. That is counter-revival, is it not?

I am still lying in the ditch feeling somewhat bleeding and overpowered by sword-bearers (on the other thread) who are stronger than I am. To be honest I have fought and lost so many battles that I have no more strength to get up and resume the “battle”. I lose, and simply raise my arms in defeat. I will surely be swallowed up by the big sea monster (like in the movie) unless the Lord himself becomes a strong fortress for me. I guess I am learning that only when I reside in his walls of protection, can my heart can be kept soft and pliable - sensitive to the rest of the Body – ie, the Head and the members.

Diane

Diane,

That was beautifully said. You captured the emotional danger of revivalism; the more we want something for ourselves, the less care we have for one another. Preachers of peace become intolerant, preachers of grace place burdens, preachers of free-will become autocrats, and preachers of holiness become loveless.

Still, I believe we should not overlook the technical factors I tried to convey earlier. I really don't think we are a bad bunch of people trying to hurt one another. We just don't always understand the dynamite we are playing with as we post our thoughts and convictions.

I do want to add one more technical note as well. The forum is by default a place that will attract disagreement more then agreement. The reason is that agreement generates little incentive to add comments.

For instance, If I post a thread announcing "God is good!" There will be little interest in such a thread, but not because people don't need to hear that but because no one will feel compelled to echo such an establish idea. This lack of interest in topics that are fairly resolved is purely a systemic characteristic of the forum and should not be mistaken for a character flaw in the people here.

Now we Christians love to talk about living by passion...but this really irks me because only children live by passion. You'll never catch Jesus or Paul extolling the virtue of living by passion. Revival isn't passion...that's just enthusiasm and revivalism.

I won't presume to define revival here, but we know that biblical faith involves a 180 degree turning from subjective passions (including spiritualism and superstition) to objective truth (Commitment to Christ as revealed in scripture, affirmed by the Holy Spirit.)

One of the objective commitments we hold to is that the Holy Spirit is available to all the brothers and sisters who get on our nerves. How dare we question one anothers love for the Lord based on passionate disagreement? We are seeing this injury more and more recently in this forum, and I cannot stress how damaging this trend is to what we hold dear about Sermon Index. If we must shame one another, let's do it with the quality of our own lives, not with attacks.

Policy discussion...

Whether cleverly inferred with apocraphyl riddles or outright stated this practice should invoke immediate peer objection by the other members of this forum...much like healthy cells isolating unhealthy cells. This should not be personal, but policy.

In the end, we are all guests here. Indeed, in the end we are all adopted children! Nothing is ours that we weren't given...the Church is our Father's house, and the forum is Greg's house. It isn't our place to deny one another access without following proper discipline, due process, and objective maturity. These processes and procedures are not readily available in a forum environment such as this, so therefore, decrying one anothers commitment to Christ, or denying the fidelity of their salvation should be out of bounds by policy. Such severe judgements not be made unilaterally or rashly, as has been the recent trend here at SI. This heavy responsibility should remain the domain of the local church...that is if we are indeed bound by the law of Christ and not writing our own policy manual.

Now forgive me for bringing up policy here. I do not presume anything. But several people in this thread have noticed a problem...and I trust we can do more then just lament and complain. Let's take care of this place together brethren.

Blessings,

MC

Saints,

Very good replies, all are thoughtful and rich in wisdom. All of you make excellent points, too many good points to speak to individually.

It is hard to know what is right sometimes in regards to the way we respond to one another. In this age of political correctness and sensitivity gone overboard. Let us not forget in Proverbs where it says :
Better is open rebuke than hidden love,
Wounds from a friend can be trusted,
but an enemy multiplies kisses.

I suppose it sounds like I have changed my mind since my original post. We need to weigh all of the scriptures in light of correcting or disagreeing with one another and then find a balance.

Charlene brought up Galatians 6:1 where it says Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently.

Then there are the examples of the way Jesus spoke to the Pharisees in Matthew 23. Pretty harsh language for what we are used to hearing.

Then there was the way Peter answered Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8 when he tried to buy the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It actually seems as if they saved the harshest words for unbelievers. Well actually not unbelievers but the religious in the case of the Pharisees.

Look at how gentle Jesus was with the woman caught in adultery, but he did not water down the message. He told her to go and sin no more.

When Paul disagreed with Peter, he said I opposes him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Paul wasn't exactly beating around the bush.

Pastor Frin brought up John 16 where it says people will kill believers and they think they are doing God's service.

What I am saying is, well, I guess after all this I don't know.

Maybe I just want us all to get along, but at the same time correction is needed.

If we are trained by it and produce a harvest of righteousness, it will all be worth it.

Murray

I believe the patience we seek is with the unifying of the Holy Spirit...this deposit has a universal voice which all should recognize and be drawn to.

I am perplexed that we as Chrisitans can't get along. Our need to sound profound and prop our own pride up above others makes us disregard the sermon on the mount....The Holy Spirit is telling is the last will be first and the first will be last. Be servant to all not self seeking.

May the Spirit unite us together to love with no regard for our selves......

Compton said:

The forum is by default a place that will attract disagreement

Let’s face it, we all have a bit of that original ‘apple” stuck between our teeth, and there is something in us that craves to be God. The thicker and crustier our layers of figleaves, the more unlikely we are to sense it. And so, in our evangelical zeal, we march out on a passionate mission to rule “our” domain: ie, the hearts of others. We think that we can change them by telling them where they are wrong and controlling them. We might even sanctify our mission with the preface: “I’m telling you this with love.’ When you hear those words you know to really brace yourself……. ‘cause… heeeeere comes the whammy…….. ! … Oh the subtle danger of playing God in people’s lives…….. There is an inherited danger in being evangelical.

We evangelicals don’t so easily see the reaction to our trends. An army “out there” is rising – reacting to our “power’. It assumes that our trend of pushing our “truth” on others is causing of war, inequalities, intolerance, etc. WeAreRight spells WAR. And so they propose a new “policy”: No one is right. No one can enforce their “truth’ on anybody else. Just keep it to yourself. And so these post-modern zealots play God and try to enforce their ‘better” solution for our conflicts. Still, we would do well to hear the “heart-beat” of their concern, rather than react with just another “God”-maneuver. After all, in our obsession to prove them wrong we merely prove them right!

My question is what do we think we are winning?

we are all guests here

Last night I spent three hours writing and rewriting a post till I finally pressed delete. It was useless, pitiful – just another good-ol’ chew on the “apple”. There is no point in forming a little holy huddle here - and share our should’s and autht’to’s. It may feel righteous, but it changes nothing.

We humans are fallen creatures, loyal to the “policies” we inherited – esp via family and society. And these “policies” don’t easily get overruled by new “laws” written on paper – in our constitutions, regulations, etc. For example, if our early-life environment was saturated with conflict that tended not to be resolved properly, we’ll just take that baggage along and live by those “rules” in all our life-forums.

This heavy responsibility should remain the domain of the local church..

Of course, I believe that healthy/godly relational “policies” should apply across the board – regardless of venue. I get nervous about giving the church too much power over people, especially if it is weak spiritually. Our church organizations tend to be subsection of society and carry the “mainstream” values. In my experience churches are run by the most dominant hidden “policies” – never mind what’s in their constitutions. To the extent that this is true, they fix problems by their early-on acquired dysfunctional “rules” – typically, playing God. … and building walls.

Scripture is so right-on! Laws are impotent to change hearts. We are at the mercy of God to give us new hearts – that pulsate with HIS life-blood.

Diane

Diane,

That post could only come from someone who really knows themself and others for that matter.

we all have a bit of that original apple between our teeth

"I am telling you this with love" When you hear those words you really know to brace yourself....

The sad part is what you are saying is true. I myself have written those words while MAKING A POINT. Love was a million miles away but the need to be right was right next door.

And maybe that answers the question as to "where the patience is or has gone". Patience is brushed aside on our quests to be right.

Murray

Hello...

This is an interesting thread! I agree with the notion that we need to display our patience with one another. Even with the "unifying power of the Holy Spirit," chances are that we will never fully agree with one another in all matters. Some of us will probably remain pre-trib -- even after the many threads proclaiming the "truths" of mid or post-trib. In fact, our beliefs on some less important "doctrines" may never change. Some of us may gladly continue tithing while those who claim to be "free" from such "bondage" will argue the point of this beliefs (or vice versa). Such a list of our differences can probably be contained in a book that is longer than the Word of God itself!

We are all walking on the same journey, to borrow from Bunyan, through the "wilderness of this world" to our "celestial kingdom." The road is certainly "straight and narrow" (Matthew 7:12-13). But is your road necessarily the same road that I am on? While the destination place is certainly the same, the starting points may be different from one another. Some of us start in the "city of destruction" of protestant religious traditions, while others start from the city of "agnosticism." Others start from the city of catholicism, while other may start from the city of mormonism. In fact, some may begin their journey from a Bible-believing background. The point is that we will each begin our pilgrimage at the point of our true conversion. As a result, we will shake off the tainted beliefs of this world and move forth on the "straight and narrow."

The problem seems to arise time and time again when we all draw up our own map to Eternity. Since this "roadmap" (made from our own experiences and apparent knowledge of the road to Heaven) has been helpful in our own walk, we want to force others everywhere to walk by that same "roadmap" (which we often incorrectly refer to as "Biblical truth"). Ironically, the road to Heaven doesn't need much of a map. The road is STRAIGHT and NARROW. We certainly need the Word of God -- the only "sure" word -- to grow. But that is precisely the point! The only sure map is our map to Heaven. And rather than being a map, it is more of a compass (pointing straight to Heaven -- particularly when we stray from the road) along with guidelines for our walk with Christ.

There is an old English proverb that says, "[i]Beating a dead horse will not get you to the market any sooner.[/i]" Yet we often read the same doctrinal threads started by the same people who want to proclaim the same superiority of their "roadmap" to Heaven. While some of these threads are seasoned with the salt of patience, others seem purposely inundated with conflict.

How helpful are 100 threads about the supposed superiority of the King James Version or Received Text (interlaced with warnings about "believing a lie" by using other versions)? How helpful are a dozen concurrent threads on the virtues of Calvinism and vices of non-Calvinism? How many threads do we need to realize that many of us disagree on issues pertaining to music...tithing...modesty...the gifts of the Spirit...propriety in our assemblies...the role of politics...military pacifity...etc...? We must ask ourselves whether the purpose of such threads are to patiently discuss variences in belief, to "convert" others to our position in regards to such beliefs -OR- to instigate conflict. Do we get "bent out of shape" when someone doesn't accept our position? Do we get upset when someone calls into question the validity of our beliefs or the "facts" upon which those beliefs are based?

I appreciate this thread. Not only do we need to be patient with one another, but we need to demonstrate our love in times of doctrinal disagreement. We do not need to have complete unity in regards to our doctrine. I haven't seen a local church body that is completely free of such disagreement. But we need to be unified in our love and patience with one another. We can "warn" a brother about the obvious, but we need to mingle our speech with grace. That grace should certainly extend to matters that are not universally clear from Scripture.

:-)

Chis, I think you hit on all the “big ones” . I know what you are talking about. Been there, done that! I don’t bother any more. After all, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. And, frankly I think (generally speaking) it is just a game of chess with doctrine – a chance to win at something in life. People like that. But it misses the bigger issues and keeps one from looking inward – at one’s barren soul.

We can "warn" a brother about the obvious,

We don't easily appreciate the power of habits, the conscience, denial, past learning, etc (ESPECIALLY OUR OWN)- and so are too quick to launch out on our campaigns to change people’s behaviours or doctrines. Normally it is counterproductive. We don't win! We merely iscolate ourselves from others - build barriers rather than bridges to their soul.

At a recent dentist appointment I was praised for my good dental-care habits – ie flossing every day. I told my dentist; “Well, you can thank your employees. I had been getting slack, and at my last appointment your hygienist gave me a thorough lecture on good dental care. (which, of course, I had heard a million times!)

The Dentist responded, “Oh, we’re always giving out those lectures, but nobody listens. People need to be at the doorstep to Dentureville before they take us seriously.”

Maybe there is some wisdom in that generality for us.

What are God's solutions to the problem?

Diane