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Wesley On Predestination

H
hmmhmm Sep 15, 2007

ON PREDESTINATION

"Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son: -- Whom he did predestinate, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8:29, 30.

Our beloved brother Paul," says St. Peter, "according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his Epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15, 16)

2. It is not improbable, that among those things spoken by St. Paul, which are hard to be understood, the Apostle Peter might place what he speaks on this subject in the eighth and ninth chapters of his epistle to the Romans. And it is certain not only the unlearned, but many of the most learned men in the world, and not the "unstable" only, but many who seemed to be well established in the truths of the gospel, have for several centuries, "wrested" these passages "to their own destruction."

3. "Hard to be understood" we may well allow them to be, when we consider how men of the strongest understanding, improved by all the advantages of education, have continually differed in judgment concerning them. And this very consideration, that there is so wide a difference upon the head between men of the greatest learning, sense, and piety, one might imagine would make all who now speak upon the subject exceedingly wary and self-diffident. But I know not how it is, that just the reverse is observed in every part of the Christian world. No writers upon earth appear more positive than those who write on this difficult subject. Nay, the same men, who, writing upon any other subject, are remarkably modest and humble, on this alone lay aside all self-distrust,

And speak ex cathedrÿaa infallible.

This is peculiarly observable of almost all those who assert the absolute decrees. But surely it is possible to avoid this: Whatever we propose, may be proposed with modesty, and with deference to those wise and good men who are of a contrary opinion; and the rather, because so much has been said already, on every part of the question, so many volumes have been written, that it is scarcely possible to say anything which has not been said before. All I would offer at present, not to the lovers of contention, but to men of piety and candor, are a few short hints, which perhaps may cast some light on the text above recited.

4. The more frequently and carefully I have considered it, the more I have been inclined to think that the apostle is not here (as many have supposed) describing a chain of causes and effects; (this does not seem to have entered into his heart;) but simply showing the method in which God works; the order in which the several branches of salvation constantly follow each other. And this, I apprehend, will be clear to any serious and impartial inquirer, surveying the work of God either forward or backward; either from the beginning to the end, or from the end to the beginning.

5. And, First, let us look forward on the whole work of God in the salvation of man; considering it from the beginning, the first point, till it terminates in glory. The first point is, the foreknowledge of God. God foreknew those in every nation those who would believe, from the beginning of the world to the consummation of all things. but, in order to throw light upon this dark question, it should be well observed, that when we speak of God's foreknowledge, we do not speak according to the nature of things, but after the manner of men. For, if we speak properly, there is no such thing as either foreknowledge or afterknowledge in God. All time, or rather all eternity, (for the children of men,) being present to him at once, he does not know one thing in one point of view from everlasting to everlasting. As all time, with everything that exists therein, is present with him at once, so he sees at once, whatever was is, or will be, to the end of time. But observe: We must not think they are because he knows them. No: he knows them because they are. Just as I (if one may be allowed to compare the things of men with the deep things of God) now know the sun shines: Yet the sun does not shine because I know it, but I know it because he shines. My knowledge supposes the sun to shine; but does not in anywise cause it. In like manner, God knows that man sins; for he knows all things: Yet we do not sin because he knows it, but he knows it because we sin; and his knowledge supposes our sin, but does not in anywise cause it. In a word, God, looking on all ages, from the creation to the consummation, as a moment, and seeing at once whatever is in the hearts of all the children of men, knows every one that does or does not believe, in every age or nation. Yet what he knows, whether faith or unbelief, is in nowise caused by his knowledge. Men are as free in believing or not believing as if he did not know it at all.

6. Indeed, if man were not free, he could not be accountable either for his thoughts, word, or actions. If he were not free, he would not be capable either of reward or punishment; he would be incapable either of virtue or vice, of being either morally good or bad. If he had no more freedom than the sun, the moon, or the stars, he would be no more accountable than them. On supposition that he had no more freedom than them, the stones of the earth would be as capable of reward, and as liable to punishment, as man: One would be as accountable as the other. Yea, and it would be as absurd to ascribe either virtue or vice to him as to ascribe it to the stock of a tree.

7. But to proceed: "Whom he did foreknow, them he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son." This is the Second step: (To speak after the manner of men: For in fact, there is nothing before or after in God:) In other words, God decrees, from everlasting to everlasting, that all who believe in the Son of his love, shall be conformed to his image; shall be saved from all inward and outward sin, into all inward and outward holiness. Accordingly, it is a plain undeniable fact all who truly believe in the name of the Son of God do now "receive the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls;" and this in virtue of the unchangeable, irreversible, irresistible decree of God, -- "He that believeth shall be saved;"he that believeth not, shall be damned."

8. "Whom he did predestinate, them he also called." This is the Third step: (Still remembering that we speak after the manner of men:) To express it a little more largely: According to his fixed decree, that believers shall be saved, those whom he foreknows as such, he calls both outwardly and inwardly, -- outwardly by the word of his grace, and inwardly by his Spirit. This inward application of his word to the heart, seems to be what some term "effectual calling:" And it implies, the calling them children of God; the accepting them "in the Beloved;" the justifying them "freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ."

9. "Whom he called, them he justified." This is the Fourth step. It is generally allowed that the word "justified" here is taken in a peculiar sense; that it means he made them just or righteous. He executed his decree, "conforming them to the image of his Son;" or, as we usually speak, sanctified them.

10. It remains, "whom he justified, them he also glorified." This is the Last step. Having made them "meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light," he gives them "the kingdom which was prepared for them before the world began." This is the order wherein, "according to the counsel of his will," the plan he has laid down from eternity, he saves those whom he foreknew; the true believers in every place and generation.

11. The same great work of salvation by faith, according to the foreknowledge and decree of God, may appear in a still clearer light, if we view it backward, from the end to the beginning. Suppose then you stood with the "great multitude which no man can number, out of every nation, and tongue, and kindred, and people," who "give praise unto Him that stretch upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever;" you would not find one among them all that were entered into glory, who was not a witness of that great truth, "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord;"not one of all that innumerable company who was not sanctified before he was glorified. By holiness he was prepared for glory; according to the invariable will of the Lord, that the crown, purchased by the blood of his son, should be given to none but those who are renewed by his Spirit. He is become "the author of eternal salvation" only "to them that obey him;"that obey him inwardly and outwardly; that are holy in heart, and holy in all manner of conversation.

12. And could you take view of all those upon earth who are now sanctified, you would find no one of these had been sanctified till after he was called. He was first called, not only with an outward call, by the word and the messengers of God, but likewise with an inward call, by his Spirit applying his word, enabling him to believe in the only-begotten Son of God, and bearing testimony with his spirit that he was a child of God. And it was by this very means they were all sanctified. It was by a sense of the love of God shed abroad in his heart, that everyone of them was enabled to love God. Loving God, he loved his neighbor as himself, and had power to walk in all his commandments blameless. This is a rule which admits of no exception. God calls a sinner his own, that is, justifies him, before he sanctifies. And by this very thing, the consciousness of his favor, he works in him that grateful, filial affection, from which spring every good temper, and word, and work.

13. And who are they that are thus called of God, but those whom he had before predestinated, or decreed, to "conform to the image of his Son?" This decree (still speaking after the manner of men) precedes every man's calling: Every believer was predestinated before he was called. For God calls none, but "according to the counsel of his will," according to this _Orothesis_, or plan of acting, which he had laid down before the foundation of the world.

14. Once more: As all that are called were predestinated, so all whom God has predestinated he foreknew. He knew, he saw them as believers, and as such predestinated them to salvation, according to his eternal decree, "He that believeth shall be saved." Thus we see the whole process of the work of God, from the end to the beginning. Who are glorified? None but those who were first sanctified. Who are sanctified? None but those who were first justified. Who are justified? None but those who were first predestinated? Who are predestinated? None but those whom God foreknew as believers. Thus the purpose and word of God stand unshaken as the pillars of heaven: -- "He that believeth shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned." And thus God is clear from the blood of all men; since whoever perishes, perishes by his own act and deed. "They will not come unto me," says the Savior of men; and "there is no salvation in any other." They "will not believe;" and there is no other way either to present or eternal salvation. Therefore, their blood is upon their own head; and God is still "justified in his saying" that he "willeth all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of his truth."

15. The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostle's words, "With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;" and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, "I the Lord change not." Yet when he speaks to us, knowing whereof we are made, knowing the scantiness of our understanding, he lets himself down to our capacity, and speaks of himself after the manner of men. Thus, in condescension to our weakness, he speaks of his own purpose, counsel, plan, foreknowledge. Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally? To one who was so gross in his conceptions might he not say, "Thinkest thou I am such an one as thyself?" Not so: As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than thy ways. I know, decree, work, in such a manner as it is not possible for thee to conceive: But to give thee some faint, glimmering knowledge of my ways, I use the language of men, and suit myself to thy apprehensions in this thy infant state of existence.

16. What is it, then, that we learn from this whole account? It is this, and no more: --

(1.) God knows all believers;

(2) wills that they should be saved from sin;

(3) to that end, justifies them,

(4) sanctifies and

(5) takes them to glory. O that men would praise the Lord for this his goodness; and that they would be content with this plain account of it, and not endeavor to wade into those mysteries which are too deep for angels to fathom!

R
roaringlamb Sep 15, 2007

14. Once more: As all that are called were predestinated, so all whom God has predestinated he foreknew. He knew, he saw them as believers, and as such predestinated them to salvation, according to his eternal decree, "He that believeth shall be saved."

Sounds good, but then Paul would be contradicting himself by writing-

Rom 9:11 (For the children [b]being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,[/b] that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

or-
Rom 9:16 So then [b]it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.[/b]

or-
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time [b]Christ died for the ungodly.[/b]
Notice it is the ungodly, not the one whom He saw that were believing in the future.

or-
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, [b]while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.[/b]

or-
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 [b]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)[/b]

Foreknowledge is not God looking through time and seeing those who would believe, and then electing them based upon that foreseen faith. For if this is true, then God is respecter of persons. God's election is His free choice apart from any perceived or foreseen faith within us.

What would there be for God to see beside sin anyway, and that is nothing to warrant salvation.

H
hmmhmm Sep 16, 2007

yes brother, The Bible also clearly says we have responsibilities, the bible teaches Gods sovereignty and mans responsibility. Now yours and my brain may not make it all fit together and understand it, but i would assume anyone who says he has figured out God has probably lost it. Some verses that to me clearly speaks about mans responsibility

[b]
Matthew 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37 ¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Revelation 22:17 ¶ And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.[/b]

and there is many more passages brother, I do know all the predestination verses and what calvinist explains and how you use some verses, and I do not deny that God elects people, the bible says so, but the bible also says man can choose. Calvinist deny , twist this verses witch is very dangerous i think, If the bible says it it is so....

P
PaulWest Sep 16, 2007

The Bible also clearly says we have responsibilities, the bible teaches Gods sovereignty and mans responsibility. Now yours and my brain may not make it all fit together and understand it

Yes, brother. We can't understand it; I don't think any theologian has possibly understood the full concept, or has been able to wrap his mind fully around it. All we can do is stick our faces in the dust and admit we see through a glass, darkly. I like Zac Poonen's take on it:

"God knew his children from before the foundation of the world. But [b]we[/b] know that we are His children only when we actually repent and turn to Him. Our finite minds cannot grasp how God elects His children and yet gives man freedom to choose Him or not. These are like two parallel lines that don't seem to meet in our understanding. But as the mathematical definition of parallel lines is, [i]they meet at infinity[/i] -- in the infinite mind of God. Someone has expressed it like this: As you walked along the road of life, you found an open door one day, with these words written all over it: [b]"Whoever repents and believes in Christ may enter in here and obtain eternal life."[/b] You entered in. On looking back, you saw written all over the very door through which you had just entered: [b]"You were chosen by God in Christ, before the foundation of the world."[/b]

- Zac Poonen

sermonindex Sep 16, 2007

[b]God knew his children from before the foundation of the world.[/b]

There's THE answer right there brothers.

Plain and simple. There's no complicated answer.

I love brother Poonen, but must disagree that "our finite minds cannot grasp how God "elects" His children".
As Zac said above and answered his own dilemma - God 'foreknew' from before the foundation of the world 'who' would - "actually repent and turn to Him." And the key is "faithful unto the end".
God foreknew who would remain faithful unto the end - Before the foundations of the world.
He 'foreknew' who would continue to "choose Him" and they are therefore "chosen before the foundation of the world."
It is absolutely marvelous. No automatons.
His Bride loves Him to the death of her own freewill.
We know we are His Elect - by our loving Him as our Husband and treat Him as one would treat the One that they love more than life itself.
We can be sure of our salvation or our Election, by our hunger and thirsting and following after.

We know we are The Elect, as our hearts are still bent on doing His Will or earnestly willing to will to do His will.

We should be as happy as newlyweds are with our Beloved and not allow any fear of whether we're "predestined" or not - take from the Joy of our Salvation.
Our love for Him is what He's measured humans by since the Beginning - even B.C..
Love fulfills all of the law. He foreknew who would Love Him.
The whole of it is a Love Story.
Makes me smile and I love the lack of arrogance in it.
Those whom He did "foreknow", He predestined to be conformed into the Image of His Son - How ? - by the "all things" that work together toward 'that' Good.
He works and we work. Phil 2:12 & 13.
What Husband would not help His wife if He saw her struggling with something ???
What Husband would put the whole weight of their relationship solely on his wife ?
What Wife would put the whole weight of their relationship solely on her Husband ?
:-) Rejoice in the Lord Always and again I say Rejoice.

R
roaringlamb Sep 16, 2007

God knew his children from before the foundation of the world.

That's all that I've ever tried to say, and that's all that predestination is.

Yet we must come to grips with the fact that not ALL are God's children, therefore He has in His own freedom created those who will perish.

Perhaps you guys can answer this for me. How is it that people think that if someone is "nicknamed" a Calvinist, they do not grieve over the fact that people will perish? Why do people think that I or others of the same thought gloat in the fact that men will perish? This I do not understand. :-(

Either way, men will perish, and as i have come to understand men don't really have a problem with that idea so long as men have a choice to do so. But if it hinges upon God's choosing them or not choosing them, then the fur flies and the gloves get taken off.

But which view exalts God as He is in the Bible? You cannot read the Scriptures without seeing God do what He wants to do. He uses the Assyrians to chasten Israel, He uses Babylon to chasten His people. All this He does without violating their will, for their will was set on destroying Israel.

It is just that same as the men that crucified Christ. God did not override their wills to make them do what they did, they ere following what their hearts were set on. If anything, we do see God overriding the desire of Pilate as he wanted to let Jesus go. But we know that God had ordained that Christ should be crucified, and prophesied of it in the OT. God was moving everything according to His plan. Nothing has changed.

Blessings brethren :-)

P
PaulWest Sep 16, 2007

I love brother Poonen, but must disagree that "our finite minds cannot grasp how God "elects" His children".

Congratulations on acquiring knowledge that transcends milleniums, brother. I haven't yet figured it out, but I do believe what the written Word says. I believe in election, but as to how and why God incorporates in us the freedom to choose (which is also undeniably Biblical) eternal life is too far beyond me. It's above our ways. My finite mind cannot grasp this, yet I know this is [i]possible[/i] in the infinity of God's mind, and therein I have peace and rest.

sermonindex Sep 17, 2007

Would to God brothers, that we could truly have been given the liberty to approach this issue Sola Scriptura sincerely.
Without the prior educating from any man.
Being in a fellowship here with mixes of many views obtained mostly from the teachings of men, it becomes so difficult to say - Brother, this is what I see in Scripture, without getting a response back saying, but "this author says".

Trying to maintain peace and harmony between all with differing views on Predestination or Election can be as Wesley has sadly stated above - "Nay, the same men, who, writing upon any other subject, are remarkably modest and humble, on this alone lay aside all self-distrust"

If we could approach this with Scripture alone, I believe we could see where we do agree and put aside this split that started on the Scripture and Doctrine section and now I see is beginning to cover this Article section.
At least we've freed up the other Section for other Doctrines to be discussed.

Brothers, I trust that God's Omniscience is all I can rest in. "For whom he did foreknow ...."
If resting in this verse and those like it, is transcending milleniums worth of knowledge - then I'm far from alone in this rest.
I have no knowledge outside of what is written and can only rest my soul upon Who He Is, not who I am - Thank God.
Today during our cook-out, I found time to read Calvin quotes in the fresh outdoors.
Reading his writing that God has predestined some to Hell and calling them "reprobates" is not what I see in Scripture.
I do not see God making anyone do anything against their freewills.
God forsaw, if you will, every decision that every human would make - before the foundation of the world - yet at any point - their own freewills could have decided differently - so He is Just to allow them to decide for themselves to go to Heaven or Hell.

I thought today about these threads and thought - I could never preach to a stadium of unsaved humans that - "You can come to Christ now, get out of your seat and come forward - but let me tell you first, that some of you may be predestined for Hell."

I respect the posters here for what I read of them on other threads. Street witnessing and all and I'd like to see our respect for one another to continue and not throw slurs at individuals, but to just look at our differences of opinions on these doctrines and see if we cannot approach these differences with Bible only.

If this could be accomplished, without personal remarks and sola Scriptura, I think it would be splendid to go about such a debate on Election/Predestination.
I rejoice with you brother that you are at peace and rest and this is what our goal should be, to have our peace and rest founded on Biblical Foundations that can stand the test of time and future attacks of the enemy and win many to Christ and cause those who know Him to desire to know Him more. To give assurance to the unsaved, every one of them, that they can be accepted by our Beloved, just as He has said, "whosoever will."

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