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Theology

Charles G Finney and Moral Government

P
philologos Sep 16, 2007

I want to try to examine the teaching of Charles Finney. In doing so I will exercise the same courtesy as if he were before me. I will not attack his character or his ministry but will contain myself to examining what he has written and what we should understand by it.

I will take my quotations from the 1851 version of the published work. Some have objected to other versions has having omissions and additions.

The front page of the book has the title...
LECTURES
ON
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY,
EMBRACING

MORAL GOVERNMENT,
THE ATONEMENT, MORAL AND PHYSICAL DEPRAVITY,
NATURAL, MORAL, AND GRACIOUS ABILITY, REPENTANCE, FAITH,
JUSTIFICATION, SANCTIFICATION, &c.

BY THE
REV. CHARLES G. FINNEY,
PROFESSOR OF THEOLOGY IN THE OBERLIN COLLEGIATE INSTITUTE, OHIO, AMERICA.

THE WHOLE WORK REVISED, ENLARGED, AND PARTLY RE-WRITTEN BY THE AUTHOR,
DURING HIS LATE VISIT TO ENGLAND.
It will be helpful to see the priorities that Finney himself placed on this publication; it is an exposition of the theory of Moral Government in Systematic Theology. The opening words of the preface reads...
TO a great extent, the truths of the blessed gospel have been hidden under a false philosophy.
Finney's "Systematic Theology" lectures are the exposition of a philosophy. He claimed that much of the Calvinism and hyper Calvinism of his day was a 'false philosophy' and this series of lectures is Finney's attempt to provide a true philosophy.

This will explain a pattern which may surprise those who read it for the first time, namely that in the foundational chapters there is very little quotation of scripture. It is philosophy rather than Bible exposition. Finney begins not from scriptural revelation but from reason. He was a lawyer and his style is very pedantic, building one idea on the last. This has some advantages but one disadvantage it has if that is you cannot accept the earlier part of his reasoning the later parts are so dependent upon the earlier that it leaves you with a sense of uncertainty.

The pattern is A therefore B, B therefore C, C therefore D etc. If you cannot accept A the whole pattern grinds to a halt. You are left with an elaborate building with no foundation or at least with a foundation in which you have no confidence.

Finney's whole philosophy is built on what might be called 'fairness'. God's works and ways must be seen to be fair. This is another pattern of the law with which Finney was so familiar; justice must not only be done, it must also be seen to be done. There are truths which he holds to be self-evident and which everyone will agree to. He tries to build on a sense of 'moral' common sense. In this sense he is not so different from the Roman Catholic notion of 'natural theology'. Catholic theologians claimed that logic steps would take any reasonable man from the fact of the existence of the world into fully convinced believers. There is something of the same presumption in Finney's writings. He believes that what he is writing is self-evident and that it is the only reasonable explanation for things as they are.

In these lectures he does not begin with the Bible but with self-evident facts which no reasonable person would contradict. He continues...
I often said to myself, "If these things are really taught in the Bible, I must be an infidel." But the more I read my Bible, the more clearly I saw that these things were not found there upon any fair principles of interpretation, such as would be admitted in a court of justice. I could not but perceive that the true idea of moral government had no place in the theology of the church; and, on the contrary, that underlying the whole system were the assumptions that all government was physical, as opposed to moral, and that sin and holiness are rather natural attributes, than moral, voluntary acts.
So Finney claims that it was his reading of the Bible that alerted him to these 'discrepancies' but his lectures do not begin with the Bible but with "How we attain to the knowledge of certain truths". He then lists the ways in which we attain such knowledge...

1. The Revelation of Self-Consciousness
2. The Revelation of the Sense
3. The Revelation of the Reason
4. The Revelation of the Understanding

He is presenting his case as he would do to a court of law;
such as would be admitted in a court of justice.
It is important to keep this in mind when we try to understand his points later on. He is basing his case on 'natural theology' and his arguments are those that he believes would carry the verdict in a court of law. Finney, of course, was a lawyer... as was Augustine, Tertullian and John Calvin!!

The question must be asked as to whether it is appropriate to start at this point. Finney himself believed in 'human depravity' but saw it as being self-induced rather that transmitted. Is it safe to base our case, as Christians, primarily upon the functions of natural reason and obeying such such laws of evidence as would convince a court of law?

In his lectures, at least, Finney does not begin with divine revelation but with human reasoning. To my mind this is going to have serious repercussions to all he writes. Traditionally orthodox Christians have said 'I believe therefore I think'. Belief arises from revelation but for Finney in his lectures conviction will not arise from divine revelation but from the power of reason. We should bear this in mind as we move on to consider his views on the Atonement.

R
roaringlamb Sep 16, 2007

Brother Ron, would you say that Finney's Theology was more ethics than anything else?

I know that when comparing Finney to Emmanuel Kant alone, one can find a multitude of similarities.

If I was going for a PhD, I would write a thesis on this, but thankfully I'm not. :-D

T
truth1 Sep 16, 2007

This will explain a pattern which may surprise those who read it for the first time, namely that in the foundational chapters there is very little quotation of scripture.

I don't recall ever reading of someone alerting the reader to this... namely how little if any scripture is cited, entire paragraphs or pages and no scripture?? How could this be?

R
RobertW Sep 16, 2007

Ron's:

In his lectures, at least, Finney does not [u]begin[/u] with divine revelation but with [u]human reasoning[/u]. To my mind this is going to have serious repercussions to all he writes. Traditionally orthodox Christians have said 'I believe therefore I think'.

The first issue we face in your question is [i]AUTHORITY[/i]. Who or what is in authority? The Chicago Statement reaffirms the historical evangelical position on the authority of scripture. In simple terms, it is forever settled in heaven (Psalm 119:89).

After nearly 1000 years locked up in the dead language of Latin scripture once again saw the light of day in the common language(s) of the people. The Pope's had userped God's authority and passed decrees or laws themselves. As Tyndale stated to the priest, "I defy the Pope and all of his laws. If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause a man that driveth the plow to know the scriptures better than you."

The word of God was the sword of the great Reformation. The reformers refocused the attention on the scriptures. Hence, [i]sola scriptura[/i] (Only the scriptures) refocused absolute and ultimate authority on God's holy word. This simply means, that God's word is the final authority- the Supreme Court in the realm of human argument. The question is [i]not[/i] does the scripture square with my 'reason' or 'experience', but does my 'reason' or 'experience' square with God's word.

To assert my reason over the revelation of God's word is the epitome of rebellion and is the seed of Satan. The enemies herald is simple; "hath God said?" Satan always seeks to undermine the authority of God's word and cloud what He has said. Satan cannot bear to have man take God at His word. He wants man to lean on their own understanding, trust themselves, and do what is right in their own eyes. He did it to Eve and he does it today. To believe God is to exercise [i]faith[/i]. To believe Satan is to sin.

How shall we approach the sacred book? Perhaps with the addresse of the Book of Revelation:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:18, 19)

Genesis begins with the enemies lie that undermined God's word and plunged humanity into damnation; God having set the record strait ends with this solemn warning. We do well to take heed.

Without the authority of scripture everything becomes subjective. The scriptures must retain their place as God's infallible revelation by which all things are and shall be judged. Scripture is high and exalted above all reason. If scripture be made subject to man's reason it shall be foolishness to him because it is spiritually discerned. The natural man does not comprehend the things of God.

P
philologos Sep 16, 2007

Brother Ron, would you say that Finney's Theology was more ethics than anything else?

I can certainly see why you would say that. I think in part he is contending with those for whom belief was everything and behaviour very little. In that I have a lot of sympathy with his views but I must say that I find nothing 'grand' in Finney's theology. It is turgid and earth bound. I am no Calvinist but Calvinists do lift my eyes Godwards.

If I was going for a PhD, I would write a thesis on this, but thankfully I'm not.

Ir might have been interesting to read. ;-)

P
philologos Sep 16, 2007

entire paragraphs or pages and no scripture?? How could this be?

I think simply because this is his design. I don't think it is a conspiracy but just an illustration of Finney's starting point which is essentially human reasoning rather than divine revelation. Later he will use scripture but usually to illustrate his point rather than as a starting point.

When we look at his handling of the atonement we will see this more clearly.

sermonindex Sep 16, 2007

Ron,

Finney believed that the final authority regarding spiritual truth was revelation. Finney's epistemology was 100% revelation from God. But Finney recognized the conscience, or consciousness, as divine revelation given to us by God. Thus the bible says God has given light to every man and Romans talks about the law being written on the heart, the conscience also bearing witness.

Finney believed in natural theology (or natural revelation) and also supernatural theology (or supernatural revelation). The former would be the conscience and the latter would be the bible, and the two never contradict each other since they both come from the same source.

Ron, have you read Finney's entire 1851 Edition of His theology? His theology must be read in it's entirety to properly understand it.

Finney's theology was far more then mere philosophy, it was scriptural. Finney built his entire theology upon the two greatest commandments and quotes an abundance of scripture thorough all of it.

Gordon Olson is one of the best Finneyite Theologians history has seen. And anyone who has read Olson's "The Truth Shall Set You Free" will see how Moral Government Theology is abundantly scriptural. Winkie Pratney articles are great as well, teaching Moral Government principles straight out of the bible itself.

T
theopenlife Sep 16, 2007

Ron, thank you for this timely series. By the way, good use of the word "turgid". ;-)

N
Nile Sep 16, 2007

In his lectures, at least, Finney does not begin with divine revelation but with human reasoning.

The way you said this makes it seems like he starts with human reason [i]in contrary[/i] to scripture.
It is clear from Paul's writings that many things can be known from natural revelation and basic "human reasoning". I can think of numerous places where Paul says things like, "it is clear to all that...", "it is self-evident that...", "nature teaches us that..."

Nile

R
roaringlamb Sep 16, 2007

Thus the bible says God has given light to every man and Romans talks about the law being written on the heart, the conscience also bearing witness.

Yes but what do men do with this light?

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that [b]light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[/b]
John 3:20 [b]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.[/b]

Men are not morally good according to this, but rather evil. Compare this what the Romans verse, and you have a better case of man's depravity than you do of ability.

The light of nature is not enough to bring a man to salvation, as man would rather worship it than God. Also faith comes by the Spirit working with the preaching of the Gospel to give life to hearts to believe.

If Finney really believed that men were morally capable because of conscience then he is far more dangerous than I suspected. If he believed that through the light within, or nature alone men could come to faith, this is similar to new age, or pantheistic views, not Biblical Christianity.


Perhaps this why the area of New York where Finney spent the majority of his time was referred to as the "burned over" district. Form that area sprung forth the Mormons, and many other pseudo-Christian groups that believed they could create a utopia here on Earth because they were morally able.

As a side note for any interested, search around and find Joseph Smith's(founder of Mormons) testimony, and then compare it with Finney's. The similarities will shock you. Either one copied the other, or it was the same spirit working in each.

L
Logic Sep 17, 2007

roaringlamb wrote:
Thus the bible says God has given light to every man and Romans talks about the law being written on the heart, the conscience also bearing witness.
Yes but what do men do with this light?
Your reasoning says that "natural man" can only do what is wrong and is incapable to do any thing right.
However, the only right thing or the only good that "natural man" is commanded to do is repent and have faith in Christ, of wich all are already able to do.

All mankind must [b]be able[/b] to come to God when commanded, otherwise the command is unjust and/or imoral.

If God does not give the ability when HE commands, then HE is guilty of imorality and/or injustice.

It is imoral or unjust to burden a man with no legs with a command to walk.
It is imoral and/or injust to burden a man with no ability to obey a command.

Would it be right to command a blind person to see or read a sign 5 feet way without, first, giving him new eyes?
That is what you are doing with God, having Him comand the imposible without giving the ability to obey; accept to only the elect.

All mankind already has the ability repent and to put their faith in HIM and the evidence for this is the fact of the commandmend its self.

All mankind must already have the ability to obey all Gods commands.
The first of His commands are to repent and put thair faith in HIM, because the ability to obey the rest of Gods commands are found in Christ.

P
Peacecraft Sep 17, 2007

Romans 9: (NIV)

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d]13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[i] 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."[k]

29It is just as Isaiah said previously:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."[l]

Israel's Unbelief
30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[m]

R
roaringlamb Sep 17, 2007

It is immoral or unjust to burden a man with no legs with a command to walk.
It is immoral and/or unjust to burden a man with no ability to obey a command.

Would it be right to command a blind person to see or read a sign 5 feet way without, first, giving him new eyes?
That is what you are doing with God, having Him command the impossible without giving the ability to obey; accept to only the elect.

Dear brother, would it be wrong of God to command Moses to part the Red Sea when he could not do it?
Exo 14:15 And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? [b]speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:[/b]
Exo 14:16 [b]But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.[/b]

Would it be unfair of God to command a small army to fight against one many times stronger like He did with Gideon?

Would it be unjust of God to command Joshua to march around a city, and then the walls would fall down?

Was Jesus mocking the man in the Synagogue when He told Him to stretch forth his hand?

Was Christ immoral when he told the lame man to stand, take up his bed and go home?

There are many more instances in which God commands what man cannot do, but then gives the ability to obey to whom He chooses so that the glory is His alone.

What power did these have within themselves to do anything towards what God commanded?

There was one man who was created with the ability to obey or disobey, and he fell, and thus so did the human race. You refuse this, and that is why it is impossible for you to see how God can command what man cannot do.

It is this very glorious truth that man cannot that brings forth the glory of the Gospel of Christ. For what man could not, Christ did, and that work will be applied to those whom God has chosen in Christ before the foundation of the Earth.

Also, man cannot keep the 10 commandments, is it unfair of God to say we must?

L
Logic Sep 17, 2007

Peacecraft;
Pleas donot only post scripture, give a commentary on why you posted it.
In other words, you did't proove a thing.

[b]Rom 9:13[/b] [color=990000]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/color]
This is not saying that God hates some individuals.
Please read in context with the co-text
[b]Gen 25:23[/b] [color=990000]And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in your womb, and two manner of people shall be born of you; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.[/color]
[b]Rom 9:16 [/b] [color=990000]So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.[/color]
Abraham willed for Ishmael, Isaac willed for Esau.
God had a purpose in choosing one of each for a liniage.

[b]Rom 9:18[/b] [color=990000]Therefore has he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.[/color]
Pharaoh, first hardend his own heart, after God commands and one hardedn his heart against HIM, who has resisted his will?(Rom 9:18)

[b]Rom 9:20-22[/b] [color=990000]Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?
:21 Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:[/color]
Whoever:
[b]2Timoth 2:20-21[/b] [color=990000]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and fit for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.[/color]
One always has a chance and ability to choose what vessle to be

[b]Jer 18:3-6[/b] [color=990000]Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he worked a work on the wheels.
:4 And the vessel that he made of [b]clay was marred in the hand of the potter[/b]: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? says the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.[/color]
God the "potter" didn't mare the clay Himself, it mare in his hands of its self.
Israel weren't suposed to go to Babylon, that is why HE sent Jeremiah.
God had to remold the clay(Israel) by sending them to babylon, their own falt.

N
Nile Sep 17, 2007

Dear brother, would it be wrong of God to command Moses to part the Red Sea when he could not do it?

"Could" is the word you're using wrong here. Moses "could" part the Red Sea, as is apparent by the fact that he *did*. Therefore God did not command him to do something he "could" not do.

Would it be unfair of God to command a small army to fight against one many times stronger like He did with Gideon?

No, it is not unfair. God gave them power to win.

Would it be unjust of God to command Joshua to march around a city, and then the walls would fall down?

God did not command them to make the walls fall down. He commanded them to walk around the city. Big difference.

Was Jesus mocking the man in the Synagogue when He told Him to stretch forth his hand?

You're trying to say that Jesus told him to do something he couldn't do. The man could stretch forth his hand as evidenced by the fact that he did.

Was Christ immoral when he told the lame man to stand, take up his bed and go home?

Jesus healed the man and made him able to walk, don't you know? If the man couldn't obey Jesus's command, he wouldn't have been able to walk.

In none of these examples did God command something which couldn't be done. He always provided a way for the command to be done.

What power did these have within themselves to do anything towards what God commanded?

They all had the power to respond and do what He commanded.

Also, man cannot keep the 10 commandments, is it unfair of God to say we must?

Which of the 10 Commandments are you or anyone unable to keep?
They are all able to be kept.
Because they can be kept does not mean they will though.

R
roaringlamb Sep 17, 2007

Pharaoh, first hardend his own heart, after God commands and one hardedn his heart against HIM, who has resisted his will?(Rom 9:18)

This is not what Scripture says brother-
Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

This come before any mention of Pharaoh hardening his heart.

:21 Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Whoever:

Don't know why you didn't put this part though brother-
Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on [b]the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/b]
Romans 9:24 [b]Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

I know it doesn't fit with your theology, but the Scripture is always right. The vessels here are individuals, and even IF(mighty big if mind you, as the verb structure, and wording in Greek leave no option but individuals)they were nations, at this point Paul points out that the vessels of mercy were "us", the Church, and not the vessels of wrath.

The next passage you love to quote from has little to nothing to do with this passage. But just so you understand the context of what Paul is getting at-

Here is the beginning of the thought process-
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

[i]Paul here gives instruction for Timothy[/i]

Then-
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 [b]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.[/b]

[i]Why Timothy should avoid these men, and the fact that God's truth shall prevail as shall His people[/i]

Now comes your verses-
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Who are the "these" Paul refers to? It is not the "vessels" obviously, so who?

Those who do what Hymenaeus and Philetus did, which was in v.18
2Ti 2:18 [b]Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.[/b]

Follow the text brother, rather than inserting your own agenda upon it.

R
roaringlamb Sep 17, 2007

"Could" is the word you're using wrong here. Moses "could" part the Red Sea, as is apparent by the fact that he *did*. Therefore God did not command him to do something he "could" not do.

Brother, we both know that Moses "could not" do this, and that God had to. God commanded the impossible that He might work and show forth His glory to His people that they would trust Him alone.

You're trying to say that Jesus told him to do something he couldn't do. The man could stretch forth his hand as evidenced by the fact that he did.

So all those years sitting there with a crippled hand, and suddenly one day he decides it needs to heal, and heals himself? I don't think so, man cannot heal himself brother.

In none of these examples did God command something which couldn't be done. [b]He always provided a way for the command to be done.[/b]

Bingo!!! He did the work, not man. Much like my hammer does the job of driving nails as it is in my hand under my power, but once my influence is gone, it is lifeless and capable of nothing, not even what it was made for.

God alone gives what He commands, that is why it is called grace, and not merit. God justifies the ungodly, not the righteous.

Which of the 10 Commandments are you or anyone unable to keep?
They are all able to be kept.
Because they can be kept does not mean they will though.

None are able to love the Lord there God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength all the time.

Even now you and I have rival affections that war with Christ for priority, thus they are idols.

This is why we need a perfect Substitute who did all this for us, and then imputes that to us. It is the great exchange, my sin for His righteousness, that is the Gospel.

Brother the Law is a hard taskmaster to please, and I hope you are found at Mount Zion rather than Mount Sinai.

N
Nile Sep 17, 2007

God alone gives what He commands

The contrapositive is true, and is what you miss:
[b]What God commands, He gives ability to do.[/b]

None are able to love the Lord there God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength all the time.

How can someone be a Christian yet not love God? [b]In-between, halfway love is worthless![/b]
Don't you know no one can serve two masters? Either he will hate the one and love the other, or love the one and hate the other!
If anyone who loves the world, the love of the Father is not in Him.

Even now you and I have rival affections that war with Christ for priority, thus they are idols.

Having rival affections is not ungodliness - it is the curse of this body, something beyond our control.
It is not the rivalry that matters, it is who obey that matters.

R
roaringlamb Sep 17, 2007

Having rival affections is not ungodliness - it is the curse of this body, something beyond our control.
It is not the rivalry that matters, it is who obey that matters.

If God demands all, and we do not give Him all, it is still sin brother, and were it not for the greatness of Christ before His Father on our behalf, we would be doomed. Aren't you overjoyed to know that!!!!!

N
Nile Sep 17, 2007

If God demands all, and we do not give Him all, it is still sin brother, and were it not for the greatness of Christ before His Father on our behalf, we would be doomed. Aren't you overjoyed to know that!!!!!

I am overjoyed :-)

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