The End of the Rapture or the Rapture at the end

THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH

Opinions are as varied as there are people to ask them of. Left behind books made a couple men an awful lot of money. From the best that I can find through research, the "rapture" doctrine was invented by a Jesuit who had a Jewish pen name. When I learned this, I was amazed that in all my years of catholic school, not a word can I remember being mentioned about "rapture".
The word rapture is not in the bible. It means, "catching away". That principle is mentioned by Paul in the bible.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
But when does it occur? Paul gives us some clues. He says there will be a shout from heaven, a voice of the archangel, and the trumpet of God will sound. Paul says that the dead in Christ shall rise first. So, in order for there to be a rapture, there must also be a "resurrection".

If you read the last half of chapter 19 in the book of Revelation, you will see that in time, we are at the end of the 7 year tribulation. Satan is bound for a thousand years. Then as chapter 20 opens, we find that those who are alive at His coming, which is at the end of the tribulation period, and those who were slain for their faith during the tribulation, will rule with Christ for 1000 years.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
This is not difficult to understand. Those who were slain for their faith will rise from the dead. Then John makes this statement, "this is the first resurrection".
Now, surely there can't be more than one "first resurrection". The first resurrection mentioned in the bible is clearly at the end of the trib at the second coming of Jesus. The logical conclusion then is that there can be no pre-trib resurrection, since there can only be one fist resurrection and it occurs clearly at the end of the trib.
To me, this was a great discovery and revelation. It finally settled the issue in my spirit and I have a real peace about it.
This, to me, is just another reason why reading the bible is so important. It is the one of the blessings of the Holy Spirit living in us, to lead us and guide us into all truth.

Now, a sudden removal of all true Biblical believers in a rapture would certainly be a most spectacular event (sign) to both those departing and those who remain on the earth. Therefore, we would expect Jesus to include such an event (sign) in his prophetic answers to the questions about the "end of this age" and "His coming." There would certainly be no point in His disguising or hiding such and important thing, after all, why would Christians have to know much about the end of time and the "great tribulation" if we are not going to be here?
Jesus chose specifically to not pray for a rapture:
John 17:15 "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
Examples of Jesus telling about the wicked being taken and the righteous left:
a) Matt 24:37-40"But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.38 "For as in the days before the flood, they (the wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark (Noah and family entered the ark 7 days before the flood), 39 "and (they – the wicked) did not know until the flood came and took them (the wicked) all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.40"Then two men will be in the field: one (wicked) will be taken and the other left. 41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill: one (wicked) will be taken and the other left.42"Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. (NKJ)
b) Luke 17:26-27"And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
27 "They (the wicked) ate, they (the wicked) drank, they (the wicked) married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them (the wicked) all.

Luke 17:34-37 "I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.35 "Two women will be grinding together: the one (the wicked) will be taken (destroyed) and the other left.36"Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken (destroyed) and the other left."37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."(NKJ)

c) 2 Pet 2:4-9For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)--9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,(NKJ)
Examples of Jesus saying that the taken ones are devoured :
a) Luke 17:37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."(NKJ) (eagles = vultures = large bird that lives chiefly on decaying flesh of a dead body)
b) Rev 19:17-1817 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."(NKJ)
c) The taken ones cannot be Christians because they are to be "alive and remain" 1 Thess 4:15-17
Four Examples of wicked taken 'out' of the earth and destroyed and righteous 'remain':
1) Matt 13:37-43 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42"and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43"Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (NKJ)
2) Luke 17:28-30" 28Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 "but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. (NKJ)
3) Matt 13:47-50 47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea ("multitudes of people" Rev 17:15) and gathered some of every kind, 48 "which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.49 "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 "and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."(NKJ)
4) 1Thes 5:2-4 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they (the wicked) say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. (NKJ)(If we were not going to be "here" this passage makes no sense at all.)
The Elect (believers) are in the Tribulation because the days must be shortened for them:
1) Mark 13:19-20"For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20"And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. (also Matt 24:21)(NKJ)
2) Luke 18:7 "And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? (NKJ)
3) Rom 8:33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (NKJ)
4) Col 3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering NKJ)
5) Titus 1:1Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, (NKJ)
6) The elect are not Jewish evangelists but all believers
Why shorten the Tribulation days for the 'elect' if the believers are raptured away from it? The believers are in the tribulation, that is why it must be shortened for them.
Many people believe that the bible teaches that Israel signing a peace accord with the arabs starts the 7 year tribulation period. Read your newspaper. Watch Communist News Network (CNN). What if this happens and there is no rapture. What will this do to your "faith"? Most who argue for a pre-trib rapture agree there will be a tribulation period like no other as described above by Jesus Himself. Is your faith strong enough to go through it?
Some argue that the word church does not appear in Revelation after chapter 3:17, so it must be raptured. Oh? Who, pray tell are the saints, but the church itself? If the church is raptured, who are all these saints mentioned in Revelation? Please read the verses below and key in on the word "saints".
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true thy ways, thou King of saints.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Now, ask yourself, more, ask God, where are the saints during the tribulation?
I hope this helps answer some of your questions. When people try to read into the bible what it does not actually say, trouble and false doctrine are sure to follow. So be careful about your resources of information. Ask God to show you His truth found in His Word. If it does not line up with His Word, it probably is not "His Word".
Friends, I know there are many well known ministers today who preach and believe in the Pre-Trib rapture of the church. I dare not question there sincerity or their good intentions. I believe they are teaching and preaching what they have been taught as honestly as they can. But are they following the whole counsel of God’s Word, or the traditions of men? Jesus said that when we follow after the traditions of me, we are like the blind leading the blind, they both fall into a ditch. Are you sure you know what is going to happen when the trib begins? Are you ready? Am I? Lord helps us be ready and walking in the Light. Amen.

....the least of all since Paul,

"O"

Hi HE_Reigns...

Please see what Tim LaHaye and company are doing with their money and with [b]this pre-trib lie[/b] that only came about around 1826 and fit the puzzle pieces together.

I am both amazed and perplexed by this sort of nonsense! We are not talking about a doctrinal view that is universally clear from the Scriptures. Even the most ardent pre-trib or post-trib believers would have to admit that it takes some sort of honest and scholarly assumption to decide upon a belief (either way) about the "rapture." These sort of beliefs about prophecy are certainly not "foundational" in the sense that they are not necessary to enter the Kingdom of God. Yet we sometimes feel so inclined to label believers or preachers who profess such a belief (either way) as "heretics," "infidels" or, in this case, LIARS.

When I am asked what I believe about something as irrelevant (in terms of eternal salvation) as the timing of the "rapture," I usually confess that I don't know what to believe. I am somewhat persuaded that a "rapture" might take place BEFORE the time of great tribulation. I am also persuaded that a "rapture" might simply be our transformation AFTER the time of tribulation (at the Lord's return). Do we honestly believe (as some have insisted in the past) that true believers with a relationship with the Lord will be lost because they are waiting on a pre-trib rapture (or vice versa)? I thought that our relationship with the Lord was made of "sterner stuff" than that.

Regardless, I am familiar with both sides of this doctrinal argument. I tend to hold to Keith Green's "pray for pre-trib but prepare for post-trib" viewpoint. In fact, all that I am CERTAIN of is that the Lord is coming. He will one day return to this Earth and gather His people unto Himself. Whether or not that means that Christ will appear in the clouds and gather us BEFORE or AFTER the tribulation is of no matter. What matters is that we remain intimately dedicated to Him at all times.

Of course, I don't believe that we should be "preaching" about the timing of the "rapture" (pre or post) unless we are quick to mention the alternate views of the Church -- including the Scriptural rationale for those beliefs. But we should ALWAYS be extremely careful when using the "L" words (lie, lies, lying, liar, etc...) in regards to sincere and inconsequential matters of doctrine.

:-)

ccchhhrrriiisss,
Good post! The pre- post discussion could be much more fruitfull if the post trib crowd could simply debate with out charachter assasination. according to them ALL "pre" believers got their doctrine from tim lahaye and are somehow connected with some little girls dream in 1826.
I personally never knew this untill I was told by them that my biblical view was connected and thus tainted by 2 things I never heard of before.
Jesus WILL come for his bride. This is the rapture.
Jesus takes his bride to heaven
Jesus and the bride attend the marriage supper of the lamb
Jesus comes back with the saints on white horses to defeat the antichrist on the earth.
OK now look at the parable of the 10 virgins and the marriage supper of the lamb and the army on white horses.
this is powerfull stuff!
.....David

he reigns,
How do you reconcile 1 thess with the white horses in revelation. Do the saints rise up in the air to mount riderless horses and immediately return to earth?
thanks,...David

dear saints Greetings in Jesus' Name by WHose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

that there is a rapture, a catching away for me is a foregone conclusion, it will happen. The matter of the placement of this is what is in question. i never bought into the pre-trib rapture in spite of seeing many proponents of it in t.v., reading the left behind series and so on. Something about it always bothered me. Why was the book of Revelation given to the Church if the Church didn't have any part in the days it speaks of? Why did those days have to be shortened for the Elect if the Elect aren't there? When did Jesus say He would come in secret for the Church and then again in triumph? i thought there was only 1 second coming. also Paul said that in the twinlking of an eye we will change, that's enough time to be caught up to heaven and get dressed for the descent to Jerusalem, give antichrist the boot and celebrate this Victory. if Jesus suffered so, dare we think we can avoid suffering especially since we are called to fellowship with Him in His suffering so that we can share with His Glorification?Noah was a righteous man, but he wasn't saved out of the flood but rather THROUGH it. Daniel a righteous man, whose Righteousness is spoken of by God Himself to Ezekiel, wasn't spared the captivity of Babylon but was preserved through it. Ezekiel also, a priest and a righteous man was too carried to exile...but God preserved him THROUGH it. Even in the letter to the Church at Smyrna which was to be saved from the hour of trial, it is not a saving out of, but a saving THROUGH the time of trial. i know we are not appointed to Wrath, but surely God in His Infinite Wisdom and Power even in the midst of Him pouring out His Wrath remains able to preseve His Saints through this and keep Himself from harming them. Now the enemy on the other hand will rage against us but even so, is God unable to keep us even through this. i thought if God was for us, who could be against us? What about nothing being able to separate us from the Love of God in Jesus...hunger, persecution, death, life, angel, demon, height depth etc...all are rendered impotent...or do we not trust God enough that He will pull us through? bro Psalm do you trust God enough to bring you through the trib? how about you bro Chris? bro O? bro He_Reigns? i belive He can and will. i think bro O brought up some pertinent things for consideration for the pre-trib camp which are quite compelling...May God make it plain to us all.

Now about the MArriage feast of the Lamb, bro Psalm1,we were there, we are there now and will be there. We are saved from before the foundations of the world and this is the security of our Salvation, God has Saved us and we are hidden in Him now and with Him now in Heavenly Places like Paul said. We also await the return of the Messiah to take us Home. Heaven is not a place where things happen in a linear fashion as we are accustomed to here on earth. in Heaven past present and future occur simultaneously. The marriage feast of the lamb doesn't require time as we know it to pass and then those who are there get up and come back so to say that we have to be there first and then come back so there must be a rapture is a wrong conclusion. The truth is, if we see ourselves as always awaiting Heaven, we've not grasped what it is Heaven is about, it is about being with God and unless you are with God on this side now, there is no point of looking forward to it because Heaven is a continuation of something which we must step into and already be walking in NOW.

let us consider Reveleation 7:

[b]9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; [/b]

who are these people?

[b]10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. [/b]

now the answer:

[b]13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. [/b]

now these are all the saints, washed in the blood of Jesus from the very first, to the very last. This includes those who come through the trib, the whole lot including those who are Judged at the end of the Millenium and are found in the Book of Life. How come all of them are here in Heaven while the trib is raging? Heaven isn't so much a place we await but a place which clearly we must ever be in as Paul says we are seated in Heavenly Places with Jesus. clearly people will be Saved during the Trib and yet they are counted here already...

Paul talks of the rapture happening when Christ returns which is after the man of sin is revealed and many have fallen away. i think that the idea that many people await the rapture is speaking to this great falling away. More people expect to escape that be here during it all and so when that hope evaporates, many saints will jump ship...some will not return and will become betrayers and give up the Elect to persecution.

i'm a post tribber, perhaps because i know i own rapturing will be in a violent death, perhaps i'm thinking "ya'll had better be with me... :-P " all the same though, if i am wrong we have nothing to worry about as we will be caught away...but if God has spoken to us post-tribbers and we have heard rightly what He has said, then we're all in for a rough ride. Bless God though that He is more than able to preserve His Elect! That's good enough for me pre-mid-or-post trib!

Grace and Peace are ours in Him.AMEN.

He reigns,
The link "last trumpet" in my opinion is very disengenuous. It is actually the anti pre-trib website. 90% of the reading there is attacking the pre trib believers.
read the butcher job he does on the marriage supper of the lamb, Then ask yourself why does he do this? Just the marriage supper item alone blows a hole in his doctrine big enough to sail a ship through.
...David

ironman,rev 19 refers to the wedding supper and it says HIS WIFE . now keep reading and you will find the white horses after the wedding supper. the reason for the rapture is specifically for the wedding supper. His bride becomes his wife in heaven.
...David

he reigns, rev 19, also the parable of 10 virgins. Also if you go to last trumphet" you will see tims attempt to explain it away.
you never addressed the white horses.

Thanks,David

The jews thought the messiah was coming to restore Israel and become king. When Jesus died they thought he couldn't be the messiah because he didn't do what the messiah was to do. They confused prophecies and didn't accept the true messiah. I believe that alot of folks do that with the rapture and second coming.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th. 2:7,8

Something or someone has to be taken out of the way so the wickedness can be revealed. My bet is the bride of Christ. Are you looking for Christ or Anti-Christ?

-with love, Timmyjoe

The link "last trumpet" in my opinion is very disengenuous. It is actually the anti pre-trib website. 90% of the reading there is attacking the pre trib believers.
read the butcher job he does on the marriage supper of the lamb, Then ask yourself why does he do this? Just the marriage supper item alone blows a hole in his doctrine big enough to sail a ship through.

The Last Trumpet website hosted by Tim Warner is an excellent website with top quality scholarship. I strongly disagree with you David. Tim Warner has done his homework, and for someone who has studied the pre-trib post-trib debate for many years, I have never seen any such good scholarship come from the pre-tribulational camp that even compares. I'm sorry you are getting upset, but I challenge you to check the Scriptures to see if what you believe is Biblical, or if it something you have been taught and hold onto emotionally. I've seen this happen in hundreds of cases.

Amen to this thread and amen to He_reigns.

Eli barnabas,You dont know me but you judge me to be upset and emotional.Tim warner has a anti pre trib website that attacks a segment of christianity that stands on solid scriptural ground.It is my utmost desire to be accurate and true to the truth as possible.
I could show him where he is wrong but guess what ? he is in too deep to listen.
people have Legitamate positions and the debate should be open.Too bad you have to resort to your tactics, I am sure we could learn from one another but when you call people names it destroys lively debate.
but then again i guess i can summize that my questions do put the post trib position on shaky ground.
again I would say Look at his {Tim warner} mishandling of scripture and ask yourself. What is going on here?
Thanks ,David

Praise Jesus!! Lion of Judah!!

i think i will throw in my 2 cents.

In the Bible i never see God removing people from trials and tribulations. When we look at historical Christianity we never see that either.

Daniel, Meschak, Abednego, Schadrak, Mordecai, David, Paul, Peter, John, Anabaptists, puritans the list could go on and on.

My question to all those believing in a pre-trib Catching Away. What makes you so special????

And i will say this i am convicted that it is not a minor deception. i fear that many are expecting to avoid hardship etc. and will not be prepared for the fury of Satan. This will be their undoing. Yes-- Keep your lamps full and serve God with all the strength HE gives you. Prepare your hearts to cleave unto HIM so that you may endure to the end.

i will finish by saying that if there is going to be a pre-trib removal of the church. It better be coming REAL SOON.

Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

he reigns, I should not have taken the bait . but if I for example called you emotional and upset at your last post you wouldask yourself {as i did} why is he doing this? It is a rabbit trail. It leads nowhere .
But what it does do is avoids answering my question.
I believe this is where the debate should be kept.
I would gladly [join ranks]with the post tribbers if my questions could be answered.
Iwould be happy to answer any questions about what i believe.
Is this a forum or a club of Like minded christians.
You like eli dont know me and yet you say I have been taught pre- trib.
I got saved in 1977 and I attended a church that TAUGHT A millinialism.I believe you call it something else. I think i was the only one in the church that bellieved diff. from them. I stuck my nose in the word and began to seek GOD for answers.
I dont need a little girls dream Mr lahye Mr warner or ANY man to tell me what i need to believe.I WILL listen to them and even ponder what they say. AND I WILL change or adjust my position GLADLY.
I personally cant believe that a group of christiaans so readily jumps on a band wagon that trumpets error based on accusations of dreams and church history to try and validate their position.
Look, I dont need to discredit the post tribbers to fortify my position.
To me post trib is a impossibility But i welcome anyone [without using Tactics].... Justt the word. to open discussion.
THanks,David

hisremnant, Jesus said pray that you would be counted worthy to escape the things that are about to come upon the earth.
You left out noah.The ark represents heaven.
It looks like Lesus had an escapist mentality.
If you have trouble believing some are more special than others consider those that dont get any crowns to cast to the LORD.
YES HIS BRIDE IS SPECIAL.
Ask yourself a question.... If Jesus has a bride and he is to be united with his bride. .... Would not this possibly be the next [most unprecidented] event?
If it is, maybe the focus [from heavens point of view] is not the tribulation period but JESUS AND HIS BRIDE.
I am a man but i am also the bride of CHRIST.
The 5 foolish virgins were not allowed in.
The 5 foolish were definately NOT saying COME LORD JESUS.
Now doesnt it seem foolish to you to not look for the bridegrooms comming?
Thanks, David

Hi HE_Reigns...

[color=000099]
HE_Reigns wrote:
Sorry to have upset you brother, but I haven't much else to say except that after reading the ECF, the "origin" of the belief and every verse in the Bible on the last days - yes, it is a lie.
And I feel no harm done to myself whatsoever if others would consider what we believe to be a lie. I don't take offense or take it personal when anything I believe is called a lie. No, not at all Sir.

The Lord wrote enough about the last days for us to 'know' and we're told 'to know'.
Sorry if we disagree, but yes I am adamant on this, because unless one is holding "the testimony of Jesus which is the spirit of prophecy" - they're going to have a very rough time discerning the times they are living in and I would be willing to wager a major bet - that if Keith Green should not have been killed in that plane crash, that he'd have come right out and taught eschatology differently by now.

I've known more men to change their view just within this last year alone, then I'd seen in over 40 years in the Church and since I've dug into this - I 'was' pre-trib many years ago.
Something's happening out there - to cause this polar shift in men's eschatology.

Again, sorry that you are upset.
I'll leave this one link to explain a little more, but you are still free to believe as you choose.
http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/timeline/index.html

I cannot apologize for calling it a lie but I can say, that I feel badly that you are so upset.
Eschatology is not "irrelevant". Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude and John and our O.T. Prophets certainly didn't think so in the slightest. Very far from it.

A least you ended it with a :-).[/color]

[color=CC0000]ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Do you really feel the need to call the belief and preaching of a pre-trib "rapture" a "lie?" You certainly don't have to agree with the notion of a "pre-trib rapture." But do you feel so spiritually pretentious as to disrespect the view held by many others by using such a strong word? How would you feel if they called your belief in a post-trib "rapture" a "lie?"

I am both amazed and perplexed by this sort of nonsense! We are not talking about a doctrinal view that is universally clear from the Scriptures. Even the most ardent pre-trib or post-trib believers would have to admit that it takes some sort of honest and scholarly assumption to decide upon a belief (either way) about the "rapture." These sort of beliefs about prophecy are certainly not "foundational" in the sense that they are not necessary to enter the Kingdom of God. Yet we sometimes feel so inclined to label believers or preachers who profess such a belief (either way) as "heretics," "infidels" or, in this case, LIARS.

When I am asked what I believe about something as irrelevant (in terms of eternal salvation) as the timing of the "rapture," I usually confess that I don't know what to believe. I am somewhat persuaded that a "rapture" might take place BEFORE the time of great tribulation. I am also persuaded that a "rapture" might simply be our transformation AFTER the time of tribulation (at the Lord's return). Do we honestly believe (as some have insisted in the past) that true believers with a relationship with the Lord will be lost because they are waiting on a pre-trib rapture (or vice versa)? I thought that our relationship with the Lord was made of "sterner stuff" than that.

Regardless, I am familiar with both sides of this doctrinal argument. I tend to hold to Keith Green's "pray for pre-trib but prepare for post-trib" viewpoint. In fact, all that I am CERTAIN of is that the Lord is coming. He will one day return to this Earth and gather His people unto Himself. Whether or not that means that Christ will appear in the clouds and gather us BEFORE or AFTER the tribulation is of no matter. What matters is that we remain intimately dedicated to Him at all times.

Of course, I don't believe that we should be "preaching" about the timing of the "rapture" (pre or post) unless we are quick to mention the alternate views of the Church -- including the Scriptural rationale for those beliefs. But we should ALWAYS be extremely careful when using the "L" words (lie, lies, lying, liar, etc...) in regards to sincere and inconsequential matters of doctrine.[/color]

Do you see the problem with this? You have willfully criticized a sincere doctrinal belief that is accepted by many believers around the globe. You not only described the belief as "incorrect," but you have labeled it a "[u]LIE[/u]." This makes the people that preach it "LIARS," and those who believe it "FOOLS."

Why is such a statement wrong? This goes far beyond the limited scope of the Scriptural or historical "defense" that you give for a "post-trib" rapture (or others give for a "pre-trib" rapture). The problem is that you are using the same bipolar argument that serves to seperate the Body of Christ. You seem to feel so incredibly secure about your belief that you feel the liberty to slander all other doctrinal views pertaining to this issue.

Why is such bipolar rhetoric wrong? Because you leave no room for personal error. You have stated that you come from a "pre-trib" background. How certain were you about your "pre-trib" beliefs? Would you have felt the liberty to publicly state that post-trib Christians were "[i]believing a lie[/i]?" Yet that is what you have done now that you have "seen the light" about the timing of the rapture.

It seems to me that "no man knows the day or the hour" -- including the Son of God (Matthew 24:36). If the "rapture" were to take place only after the beginning of the time of great tribulation (usually agreed upon as either 3 1/2 or 7 years -- by both pre and post believers alike), then don't you think that Jesus might have a good idea when He will return? In fact, it seems like ALL believers would be expecting Christ's return following the commencement of the time of tribulation (instead of "[i]an hour when we thinketh not[/i]"). How about the Scripture in Revelation, where the Lord stated that He would "[i]keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth[/i]" (Revelation 3:10). Your historical account states that the idea of a "pre-trib" rapture comes from a "vision" (or dream) of a young girl in 1826 (or 1830). Yet we have accounts of Ephraem the Syrian, an early Church deacon, spoke about a "pre-trib" rapture in his work [i]Hymns Against Heresies[/i] (C. 373 A.D.). He stated, "[i]For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins[/i]."

"Post-trib" believers usually attribute the "last trumpet" of Revelation 11 with the trumpet mentioned by Paul in I Corinthians 15. Yet we have received no indication that these are the same trumpets or trumpet sounds. It is also interesting to note that I Corinthians was written many years before John's revelation on the Isle of Patmos. Some "post-trib" believers attribute their belief to the "Day of the Lord" argument (that the "thief in the night" rapture will occur on that great and dreadful day of the Lord (Armaggedon). Yet Peter wrote about the Day of the Lord in which the Heavens and the Earth will be destroyed, which is almost universally accepted as following the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth (II Peter 3:10-13). Is it possible that there is more than one "day of the Lord?" Or is it possible that the "day of the Lord" is longer than a single Earth day? Remember that Paul, in the same context that he preached about the "day of the Lord" also told us that "[i]God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ[/i]" (I Thessalonians 5:1-9).

Why am I saying this? You are preaching something as FACT that, in my opinion, is not 100% completely clear from Scripture. However, you may in fact be correct. The rapture might take place AFTER the time of tribulation. But is there ANY DOUBT whatsoever that the rapture could possibly take place BEFORE the tribulation? If there is any doubt whatsoever, then you have done a disservice by labeling a belief in the pre-trib rapture a "LIE."

Currently, I am somewhat persuaded that the rapture MIGHT take place BEFORE the tribulation (which will take place either 3 1/2 or 7 years), at which point the Lord will return to the Earth, gathering those who died and remain during the tribulation to meet Him as He descends (at Megiddo). Following this, there will be a 1000 year time of peace (as believers reign with Christ over those who survived on the Earth). But regardless of what I believe, or whether or not I am right or wrong, I am quick to point out that this is merely my own persuasion and that I am well aware of possible flaws in such a belief. I should NEVER proclaim as FACT what is merely my own persuasion. In my opinion, the teaching of the rapture can only be taught from a perspective of deduction, assumption or persuasion. To teach otherwise would render one in danger of proclaiming something to be TRUTH that might not be, or to proclaim something as a LIE that might not be. Can we ever feel so secure about something that isn't completely clear from Scripture?

:-)