Quoting scripture?

Hi all

I've started reading the "moral Government" thread, and was struck by the comment that Finney quoted Scripture very little at the beginning.

Many earnest Christians (as I have seen in discussions here) are unwilling to accept what anyone says unless they back it up with chapter and verse. Fair enough; our faith is based on what the Bible says, and the main test for error is whether something is clearly taught in Scripture or not.

If we are debating an issue, or seeking proof for or against a particular teaching, then appeals to the Word are right and proper.

Yet, while that is good, I wonder if it can sometimes be taken too far? We sometimes seem so concerned about being "Bereans" that we miss the heart of the matter, and get bogged down in endless wranglings over finer points of doctrine. Or using the Word to fight each other!

The Word of God is [u]far more[/u] than words on a page, however correct, true and inspired by the Holy Spirit.

And often a mature believer (such as Finney) has the Scriptures so embedded in his mind and heart that he [i]knows[/i] what it says without having to quote it word for word every time.

Does that mean he is necessarily in error because he neglects to give us chapter and verse?

Some posts do give the impression that that is the case.

I find more and more these days that thoughts flow more in the form of "narrative" - paraphrasing or summarising what I believe the Bible says - rather than quoting verbatim.

Of course, the Bible is the final authority, and it is important to check that the summary or paraphrase is an accurate expression of the essence of Truth as revealed in Scripture. But I don't think it's necessarily wrong to do this...

Any comments?

Jeannette

PS I can't comment on Finney himself because of having read very little of his writings. This is just about the general principle - the Finney thread was merely a jumping off point for this question.

Hello Jeannette,

I am of the school that we test the spirits by the Word of God. There are many sound alikes, that you find if you follow, sounding good, will lead you away from the Cross and our Life In Christ.

The Word, if used properly is to conform us to the image of Jesus Christ, illuminated by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our Teacher who leads us into all truth.

Jesus said, My Sheep hear My Voice, and a strangers voice they will not hear.

Hebrews 10:22, our bodies washed with PURE water. We have a PURE Conscience, Revelation 22:1 says ....a PURE river of Water.

Jesus said, if you abide in me and MY WORDS abide in you......

So, I'm of the School that says, if it didn't grow that way...don't eat it.

Jesus Lived by every word of God, and when being tested by Satan for 40 days in the wilderness, Satan could also use scripture itself, twisting it to use in trying to bring Jesus to disobey and worship him.

Scripture teaches scripture, and it is so vitally important, as Jesus so clearly demonstrated when Satan used scripture, that Jesus quoted other scripture to refute Satan , knowing where Satan was trying to lead Him......away from the Cross. (He's still in that business today...leading away from the cross....manipulating scripture as does WOF and many others)

Hebrews says, mature Christians have BEEN EXERCISED to discern between good and evil. We are equipped, through the WORD OF GOD, and exercised moving on to maturity to quickly spot error....however someone may base their statements on feelings and sentiment.

One such example was on the Tongues Thread by Psalms 1, talking about the poor people in Mexico, stating Doctrine is like water that just runs out of their hands (and that Doctrine was not important throwing HIS own personal opinion into the hat as what is best for others) ....Does he KNOW this for a FACT or is this just his personal opinion? With opinions as that, one can come to several conclusions:

1.Poor people are Stupid

2.Poor People have more need for food then sound doctrine.

Well, the test of that truth and principle is found in John 6. Yes, Jesus did feed the multitude, and they came back for more....but when Jesus questioned them, "do you want the bread or do you want Me", Jesus also stating what it was to follow Him, .....they said it was too hard, and turned away. He asked the others if they would BETRAY Him too. (Doctrine HERE was vitally important to Jesus)

I do think so much of the strife on these threads are actually about this very issue. However we may not have actually pin pointed this culpret until you stated it most clearly on this thread.

When finding yourself in strife on the threads, one must ask first, are you going by the Written Word of God, or just paraphrasing out of your own understanding, not yet come into maturity, knowing how to test the spirits to see where it will led you.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

ADDED for content

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and [b][color=CC0000]FOR THE WORD OF GOD[/color][/b], and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue53.htm

poet wrote:
Im going through it right now with my church demonation.
Prayerfully, we come to realise that we will never be able to completely understand all scripture, for all times and all people.
The pharisees of Jesus time thought they had it all figured out and missed the spirit of scripture, and doctrine.
Many of their beliefs became extra biblical and so they missed the giver of life when he came to them.

Me personally, I dont agree with Finney at every level. "But" He loved God, and was used by God, and many who heard Finney were brought under conviction and were saved.

Also personally if someone is writing a book, and they dont give scripture and source material to promote their findings, I throw it away because If I cant confirm what they teach, then how do I know im drinking cool-aid or not.

It's ok to discuss a teaching and debate teachings but remember the spirit of it all, we bare each other, borebare, patient, love, and kind. were on the same team trying to edify each other and answer each others questions.
I no longer will bash a person, but can make righteous judgments on what they teach.
Will I share my findings to everyone who I come in contact with or will I quietly just get away from bad teaching and pray for those who listen to it?
I could be wrong about bad teaching and figure that out a year later. But now I've told 20 people that I have to find and appoligize for it.
It takes discernment to know what to speak out against and when to just chew your tongue off.
:-)

And yet there is a time to speak out too.

Blessings

Jeannette

Katy-did wrote:
Hello Jeannette,

You seem to have misunderstood what I was saying (as I rather expected some folk to do):-P

In fact I agree 100% with just about ALL you said!

I am of the school that we test the spirits by the Word of God. There are many sound alikes, that you find if you follow, sounding good, will lead you away from the Cross and our Life In Christ.

The Word, if used properly is to conform us to the image of Jesus Christ, illuminated by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our Teacher who leads us into all truth.

Jesus said, My Sheep hear My Voice, and a strangers voice they will not hear.

Hebrews 10:22, our bodies washed with PURE water. We have a PURE Conscience, Revelation 22:1 says ....a PURE river of Water.

Jesus said, if you abide in me and MY WORDS abide in you......

So, I'm of the School that says, if it didn't grow that way...don't eat it.

Jesus Lived by every word of God, and when being tested by Satan for 40 days in the wilderness, Satan could also use scripture itself, twisting it to use in trying to bring Jesus to disobey and worship him.

Scripture teaches scripture, and it is so vitally important, as Jesus so clearly demonstrated when Satan used scripture, that Jesus quoted other scripture to refute Satan , knowing where Satan was trying to lead Him......away from the Cross. (He's still in that business today...leading away from the cross....manipulating scripture as does WOF and many others)

Hebrews says, mature Christians have BEEN EXERCISED to discern between good and evil. We are equipped, through the WORD OF GOD, and exercised moving on to maturity to quickly spot error....however someone may base their statements on feelings and sentiment.

One such example was on the Tongues Thread by Psalms 1, talking about the poor people in Mexico, stating Doctrine is like water that just runs out of their hands (and that Doctrine was not important throwing HIS own personal opinion into the hat as what is best for others) ....Does he KNOW this for a FACT or is this just his personal opinion?

We all come to the Lord first as babies, knowing almost nothing. Like the man born blind (John 9) who, at first, didn't even know clearly who Jesus was, but stuck stubbornly to what he did know, "Once I was blind, now I see". But even the most truly saved "babe" in Christ has to grow into a "man in Christ" - neglect of the Scriptures will inevitably lead to error.

In my introductory post I was referring only to those who already know the Bible very well, and are mature in faith, not to those who are babes in Christ. Of course babies need teaching - intensive feeding, growing, instructing, until they become mature enough to feed themselves on the Word, so that it becomes a part of them.

When such a person is well taught, really knows the Lord, and is walking with Him, he can mostly discern truth from error, rather than being "tossed about with every wind of doctrine" (Ephesians). Such a one will now be mature enough to search the scriptures for himself - and to ask the Lord if he is still uncertain.

With opinions as that, one can come to several conclusions:

1.Poor people are Stupid

2.Poor People have more need for food then sound doctrine.

Well, the test of that truth and principle is found in John 6. Yes, Jesus did feed the multitude, and they came back for more....but when Jesus questioned them, "do you want the bread or do you want Me", Jesus also stating what it was to follow Him, .....they said it was too hard, and turned away. He asked the others if they would BETRAY Him too. (Doctrine HERE was vitally important to Jesus)

I do think so much of the strife on these threads are actually about this very issue. However we may not have actually pin pointed this culpret until you stated it most clearly on this thread.

Sorry you've lost me here! :-?

When finding yourself in strife on the threads, one must ask first, are you going by the Written Word of God, or just paraphrasing out of your own understanding, not yet come into maturity, knowing how to test the spirits to see where it will led you.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

ADDED for content

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and [b][color=CC0000]FOR THE WORD OF GOD[/color][/b], and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue53.htm

But you seemed to think I was saying the opposite! :-?

Love in Him

Jeannette

Good morning Jeannette,

I didn't disagree with anything you said.

But I read your first post as a question that could have been understood or even mis-understood by some depending on how they processed the question at hand.

I would have gladly put all of John 6 as a reference without ***highlighting*** the Chapter subject. So I guess it's a matter of semantics....I say Highlight, you say Para-phrase. I think of paraphrasing as giving generalities to a subject without scripture to back up, as I used Psalms 1's generalities from the Tongues thread, also holding up John 6 to qualify or disqualify a generality.

I also like to work from Chapters rather then a verse here or there unless there are 2 or 3 to back up that scripture...you know...like having 2 or 3 witnesses.

I have always found those things that *seem like* but just seem to miss the mark, come from those who:

1. Deny the Deity of Jesus Christ
2. Deny imputed righteousness
3. Deny this amazing Grace(our sanctification by faith) we have In Christ Jesus
4. Deny the POWER of the Cross
5. Deny our identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life. (Romans 6-8)
6. Do not see themselves raised up with Jesus Christ as we speak, and seated with Him in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.
7. Do not have their roots of their Salvation firmly established from OT Covenant’s", to the New Covenant, that Hebrews so wonderfully lays out for all believers.....A BETTER Covenant.

There is only *ONE* Gospel that will SAVE, Sanctify and Glorify the Believer.

That is why it is so vitally important to have a firm foundation in who we are In Christ.

KNOWING these things, not just from a head knowledge but a Heart knowledge, as the Lord performs those promises:

"HE who has begun a good work in you will continue it until the Day of Jesus Christ." (and so many more!!!

This is what Paul was talking about in Ephesians...that WE, the Church...His Body would know the Hope of OUR calling.

I do agree, there are some very good counterfeits out there, who use and quote scripture. Just because someone sprinkles a little blood on it, does not mean it has been sanctified by God. Many will know ALL the terminology Christians use as well. It's when NEW terminology enters the conversation.....never used in scripture, that Christians run after too, is most disturbing.

Jesus Prayed in John 17, Sanctify them in the Truth, Thy Word is Truth, and our sanctification in Truth is of the utmost importance to the Lord.

We are being changed from Glory to Glory, even by the Spirit of the Lord .....2 Corinthians 3, all referring to the New Covenant and those promises in the New Covenant.

Paul built a firm foundation of our salvation in Christ...and we build upon that fouindation....he also urges that we be careful how we build, as our works will be judges.....many will burn up, but the Gold, Silver and precious stone will remain. The Gold Silver and Precious stone are the WORD of God, and that WORD has been tries 7 times in the fire so Psalms has said.

God Tests us, and our understanding of His word, through that same firey furnace if fire. HE will purge out and burn up our mis-understandings as well as ***Establish, Strengthen and Settle us after we have suffered a while***.

Job, also used by the Apostle is the example here....Job said, I shall come forth as GOLD. Although he was confused in his ordeal, he never denied his faith in the Redeemer, stating...I know that my redeemer liveth.

In the end, God confronts Job, first stating that what Job had spoken was right and his friends were wrong....but there was MORE to see and Know...The Holiness of God. When Job saw himself in contrast to the Holiness of God, he threw himself in the dirt and said, "I am a man of unclean lips".

Added/ Edited for Content:

You will also see reading Job, (to long to post the whole book here), that God was angry with the * Friends of Job* because they did not speak the correct things to Job or have the authority to speak about the Charactor of God to begin with)They may have THOUGHT they knew, but didn't.

*I recommend reading the Book of Job...

End if Edit

It is these moments in our firey trials, and the Holiness of God is revealed to us that we too say, "Now I see, now I understand",.

Here are scriptures to back this up.

Deuteronomy 21:5
And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:

2 Samuel 22:31
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.

Psalm 12:6
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Psalm 105:19
Until the time that his word came: the word of the LORD tried him.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

LittleGift wrote:

...

The Word of God is [u]far more[/u] than words on a page, however correct, true and inspired by the Holy Spirit.

....

Any comments?

Jeannette

Jeannette,

John 1.1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1.2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1.3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1.4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1.5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

It doesn't say anything about the Word of God being the written page. Does that mean that I do not read the Bible? Of course not but I definitely try not to argue or beat anyone up over it.

You also wrote...

LittleGift wrote:
If we are debating an issue, or seeking proof for or against a particular teaching, then appeals to the Word are right and proper.

Yet, while that is good, I wonder if it can sometimes be taken too far? We sometimes seem so concerned about being "Bereans" that we miss the heart of the matter, and get bogged down in endless wranglings over finer points of doctrine. Or using the Word to fight each other!

i agree with your statement that we miss the heart of the matter most times when we are heatedly debating over the written Word. This is just my humble opinion but I believe that there are too many pharisee's here and in churches who can and sometimes do kill with the letter of the word and I don't think that is what God intended when he let man create the printing press!

Anyway, Zac Poonen taught a sermon called [url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?issue=105&date=07_09&title=The+Spirit+And+The+Cross]The Spirit and the Cross[/url], I posted it on another thread but I think it is relevant here too. Here is just an excerpt of it...

[11.00 minutes into it approx and pardon any typing mistakes!] All the great Christians you read about in the Bible, never had a Bible themselves. Abraham didn't have a Bible, Job didn't have a Bible. Enoch who walked with God 300 years didn't have Bible. Even the New Testament Christians, most of them were running around from cave to cave, they didn't have a Bible. The first printed Bibles came around 1500 AD, just about 500 years ago. So how did people lives so many years ago without Bibles? How did God expect Christians to live for 1,500 years without the Bible? They couldn't have a quiet time with the Bible every morning; do you know what was most important for those Christians? The Holy Spirit. The way of the Cross. That's what makes a person spiritual. The reason I say that is because we live in a day when knowledge and information has been given great importance and I found in our churches also there's so much of Bible knowledge and information, understanding of doctrine and truth and all that [u]but not a sufficient dependence on the power of the Holy Spirit and not a sufficient understanding on the way of the Cross. And that's the reason why we don't have more spiritual people in our midst.[/u] [13.25]
(Emphasis mine.)

If we would just be about the Father's business we wouldn't have all this disagreement. Jesus's brother said,

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
James 1:27

God bless you Jeanette in your walk with Him!

Katy said:

I didn't disagree with anything you said.

That'll teach me not to jump to conclusions - as I thought [i]you[/i] were doing! ;-)

Some great and thoughtful responses here. Thank you all

in Him

Jeannette

Hi Jeannette, I'm so glad we worked through that, and seeing your definition of paraphrase, I whole hardly agree. Many do quote scripture and have no HEART depth of the meaning...AMEN!!

I remember Paul saying the word was WROUGHT in Him, which means beating as with a hammer. Many have it hammered in their heads but never in their hearts. God does the hammering.

Main Entry: 1wrought
Pronunciation: 'ro t
past and past participle of WORK
beaten into shape by tools : HAMMERED -- used of metals

* It is God who WORKS in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure*
*He who began a good WORK in you will continue it until the Day of Jesus Christ*

James 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness ** engrafted word**which is able to save your souls. (The Word is engrafted in our Heart) A New Covenant Promise, …. A New Heart will I give you, and take away that stony heart…..

Romans 15:18
For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

2 Corinthians 5:5
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 7:11
For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

James 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

2 John 1:8
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

OT Saints had the Law written on tablets of Stone, The New Creation has them Wrought in and Grafted into our NEW HEART. That's the difference between a Pharasee and one under the operation of Grace. Pharisees talk about rules, and keeping them, Grace talks about teh finished work of Christ and His Keeping us, working in us to will AND to do of His Good pleasure....Faith that produces WORKS....HIS Works!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS Added for content:

From the one who WAS a Pharisee, to now one under Grace, how totally awesome aer Paul's words, as he stated in 1st Corinthians, ( though you have many teachers but not many Fathers, be ye followers of Me, for I have begotten you throught the Gospel. And here is Paul's heart...whom God WROUGHT a Mighty WORK in him stating:

Philippians 3
1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Poet said:

Also personally if someone is writing a book, and they dont give scripture and source material to promote their findings, I throw it away because If I cant confirm what they teach, then how do I know im drinking cool-aid or not.

If you know Scripture you will know if it's true teaching or not. Whether the writer gives direct quotes or not won't make any difference. The only question I have to ask is, [color=CC0000]"Does what this writer or speaker says line up with what the Bible says?"[/color]

Of course, quotes are important, but sometimes the Bible references are best as confirmatory footnotes, or an appendix, instead of in the body of the writing. It all depends on the purpose, and who the book or talk is aimed at.

Blessings

Jeannette

Katy said:

I have always found those things that *seem like* but just seem to miss the mark, come from those who:

1. Deny the Deity of Jesus Christ
2. Deny imputed righteousness
3. Deny this amazing Grace(our sanctification by faith) we have In Christ Jesus
4. Deny the POWER of the Cross
5. Deny our identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life. (Romans 6-8)
6. Do not see themselves raised up with Jesus Christ as we speak, and seated with Him in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.
7. Do not have their roots of their Salvation firmly established from OT Covenant’s", to the New Covenant, that Hebrews so wonderfully lays out for all believers.....A BETTER Covenant.

I'm glad you put in number 3, [i]Sanctification[/i] by faith. Justification (= number 1, Imputed righterousness) is wonderful but its not enough by itself!

Blessings

Jeannette

Katy said:

I do agree, there are some very good counterfeits out there, who use and quote scripture. Just because someone sprinkles a little blood on it, does not mean it has been sanctified by God. Many will know ALL the terminology Christians use as well. It's when NEW terminology enters the conversation.....never used in scripture, that Christians run after too, is most disturbing.

The little I've read on the "inner light" discussion is relevant here. Someone on that thread said (if I remember right) that George Fox probably meant what the Bible means re the indwelling Holy Spirit, but those who came after began to use the term "inner light" in a more mystical or occult way.

Blessings

Jeannette

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

poet wrote:
The pharisees of Jesus time thought they had it all figured out and missed the spirit of scripture, and doctrine.
...
Also personally if someone is writing a book, and they dont give scripture and source material to promote their findings, I throw it away because If I cant confirm what they teach, then how do I know im drinking cool-aid or not.

At the risk of opening myself to being stoned, I'd like to challenge this last statement.

It is interesting to note that the Pharisees commonly quoted Scripture, and yet the sentiments behind what they said were unscriptural because they neglected the "weightier matters of the law" (Matt 23:23). [b]Citing Scripture references doesn't guarantee Scriptural accuracy, just as it is not essential that actual Scripture be quoted in order for a sermon to be Scriptural[/b].

Consider Paul on Mars Hill. I don't believe that he even quoted Scripture once, and yet his sermon hit the nail on the head. Even if we read his epistles, we can see that he often quoted Scripture as if they were his words, not citing a reference. Often even if he did quote a source, he'd only quote the author (eg, Romans 10, where he refers to what Moses wrote).

Norman Grubb was one such example, who would be constantly quoting and paraphrasing Scripture, without even saying that it was Scripture. Art Katz was another. I can remember listening to something he said once, thinking "That's an interesting theory. Not sure if I agree", only to be reading a verse in Leviticus a few days later, to find out that he was actually quoting Scripture.

We are called to be like the Bereans, who "searched the Scriptures to see" if what Paul said was true. [b]Give me one man who'll share the heart of God, without opening His Bible to do so, over 100 who compulsively rattle off a heap of verses to prove a point, any day[/b].

Blessings

Jeannette

Intens4Him wrote:

LittleGift wrote:

...

The Word of God is [u]far more[/u] than words on a page, however correct, true and inspired by the Holy Spirit.

....

Any comments?

Jeannette

Jeannette,

John 1.1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1.2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1.3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1.4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1.5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

It doesn't say anything about the Word of God being the written page. Does that mean that I do not read the Bible? Of course not but I definitely try not to argue or beat anyone up over it.

You also wrote...

LittleGift wrote:
If we are debating an issue, or seeking proof for or against a particular teaching, then appeals to the Word are right and proper.

Yet, while that is good, I wonder if it can sometimes be taken too far? We sometimes seem so concerned about being "Bereans" that we miss the heart of the matter, and get bogged down in endless wranglings over finer points of doctrine. Or using the Word to fight each other!

i agree with your statement that we miss the heart of the matter most times when we are heatedly debating over the written Word. This is just my humble opinion but I believe that there are too many pharisee's here and in churches who can and sometimes do kill with the letter of the word and I don't think that is what God intended when he let man create the printing press!

Anyway, Zac Poonen taught a sermon called [url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?issue=105&date=07_09&title=The+Spirit+And+The+Cross]The Spirit and the Cross[/url], I posted it on another thread but I think it is relevant here too. Here is just an excerpt of it...

[11.00 minutes into it approx and pardon any typing mistakes!] All the great Christians you read about in the Bible, never had a Bible themselves. Abraham didn't have a Bible, Job didn't have a Bible. Enoch who walked with God 300 years didn't have Bible. Even the New Testament Christians, most of them were running around from cave to cave, they didn't have a Bible. The first printed Bibles came around 1500 AD, just about 500 years ago. So how did people lives so many years ago without Bibles? How did God expect Christians to live for 1,500 years without the Bible? They couldn't have a quiet time with the Bible every morning; do you know what was most important for those Christians? The Holy Spirit. The way of the Cross. That's what makes a person spiritual. The reason I say that is because we live in a day when knowledge and information has been given great importance and I found in our churches also there's so much of Bible knowledge and information, understanding of doctrine and truth and all that [u]but not a sufficient dependence on the power of the Holy Spirit and not a sufficient understanding on the way of the Cross. And that's the reason why we don't have more spiritual people in our midst.[/u] [13.25]
(Emphasis mine.)

If we would just be about the Father's business we wouldn't have all this disagreement. Jesus's brother said,

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
James 1:27

If we would just pay more attention to this one verse, we just might have heaven on earth. At least the widows and orphans would think so!

God bless you Jeanette in your walk with Him!

Of course the last quote doesn't give us an excuse for neglecting the written Word.

Just in case someone thinks that's what's being said ;-)

Blessings

Jeannette

Katy said:

I remember Paul saying the word was WROUGHT in Him, which means beating as with a hammer. Many have it hammered in their heads but never in their hearts. God does the hammering.

Main Entry: 1wrought
Pronunciation: 'ro t
past and past participle of WORK
beaten into shape by tools : HAMMERED -- used of metals

Apparently the metal isn't only hammered but plunged again and again into fire and into water by turns, until it becomes very strong, yet pliable enough to be shaped and used without shattering .

In Jeremiah it says that God's Word is like a hammer and like fire.

If I was being picky I could say (after looking it up) that none of the NT Greek words used for "wrought" actually MEAN hammered. But it expresses the sense of the Lord's working in our lives all the same.

[b]In fact that's a very good example of what we've been talking about on this thread, not accurately sticking with the [i][u]letter[/u][/i] of Scripture but still keeping to the [i][u]Spirit[/u][/i] of it[/b].

love in HIm

Jeannette

Hi again Jeannette,

Exodus 25:31
And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.

I should have put this scriptue to cross reference, but the word, "beaten" is miqshah in Hebrew meaning:
1.molded by hammering,
2.beaten out,
3.upright.

There are so many wonderful gems of truth in the study of the Tabernacle, types and shadows referring to Jesus Christ, the Church, Mercy seat, etc, that which was made with hands, made exactly after a pattern God gave Moses, of the Heavenly True Picture, (although not fully revealed in the OT, but fully revealed in the New Testament.

Jesus will present the Church to Himself without spot or Wrinkle, so in the OT, Pure Gold was of beaten work. (Job said I shall come forth as Gold). We are molded into the image of Jesus Christ...Christ formed in you as Paul told the Galatians. They went back to the law, and Paul said "Have ye SUFFERED so much in vain", Ye have fallen from Grace. So many think GRACE is so easy, when actually it is probably more difficult then anything. We LEARN obedience throught the things we suffer, and Jesus was our example of suffering so that He could become a faithful High Priest to Us, His Church. To KNOW Him and the Fellowship of His sufferings is the heart of the Christian life.

So I understand what you mean that people can say something we may not think is in scripture, when it actually is....

I don't like giving any principles unless it is in scripture, so thank you for pointing that out to show where this truth is rooted.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1. Deny the Deity of Jesus Christ
2. Deny imputed righteousness
3. Deny this amazing Grace(our sanctification by faith) we have In Christ Jesus
4. Deny the POWER of the Cross
5. Deny our identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life. (Romans 6-8)
6. Do not see themselves raised up with Jesus Christ as we speak, and seated with Him in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.
7. Do not have their roots of their Salvation firmly established from OT Covenant’s", to the New Covenant, that Hebrews so wonderfully lays out for all believers.....A BETTER Covenant.

I'm glad you put in number 3, Sanctification by faith. Justification (= number 1, Imputed righterousness) is wonderful but its not enough by itself!

Yes and we must never forget that the whole list above is through the **Blood** of the everlasting Covenant, that is why there is teh warning in Hebrews 10 to Jews still wanting to keep Law, that there is no more sacrifice for sin ( Jesus shed blood, paid it all).

And how we are not to count the Blood of the Covenant a common thing or unholy thing, or trample underfoot the Son of God, or insult the Spirit of Grace, for it will be these that the wrath of God is coming.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)