I would like some input from those who understand the financial world. When the stock market does crash and money has become quite useless, what happens to those people that owe large sums of money to banks?
what happens to those people that owe large sums of money to banks?
Thats exactly why I asked the question based upon what Wilkerson said. I hope I can get some solid answers.I know in David Wilkerson's book "the vision" he says for Christians to work out their debts as a big priority.
Assuming that the dollar doesn't completely cease to be a viable form of currency and exchange, then those unpaid creditors who have liens and deeds to your property will foreclose and repossess, in order to soften their own free fall landing. People already live through it every day. My state has one of the highest foreclosure rates in the country right now.
If you are really serious about getting out of debt, then I would recommend Dave Ramsey's "Total Money Makeover" book. His approach is sensible but strict...and it will give you more positive traction then you think you could have had with your current income and resources, without scaring you half out of your wits in the process.
You will find that often our fear over our money is because we haven't learned to control it. Dave does a good job of taking the dread and foreboding out of your debt problems and gets you feeling hopeful again.
Just remember, laying awake at night with fears of the economy crashing doesn't lessen your debt...only a plan with a schedule and a budget will do that. So once you get a plan in place, protect your mind and emotions so you can hang in there and work your plan consistently.:-)
Blessings brother,
MC
Compton,I heard that during the great depression the banks didnt foreclose on the people that were mortgaged to their necks.Instead they foreclosed on those that were almost paid off.
our nation rests precariously on a unhealthy debt to income ratio. people dont save.They are reckless and drunk on materialism.
Has anyone looked at the price of oil? This means arab controll of our currency!
This also sets in motion cause and effect.
A $20 barrel of oil sells for $80. As this piracy continues inflation becomes automatic.
Your money isnt worth as much.....BUT WAGES CANNOT INCREASE DUE TO CHEAP OVERSEAS "SLAVE LABOR" This devalues the dollar further.
People are beginning to feel the noose around their neck at the pump. Especially those that pay cash. The credit card people only see the dread once a month and they irroneously think the will catch up in due time.Its so convienent to slide the card at the pump.
The old rule of thumb for maximum house/rent payment was 25% of monthly paycheck. Or 1 weeks pay. Now the new "improved" counsel is 50% or 2 weeks pay.
All this adds up to DISASTER.
Our nation is rapidly emptying its coffers to the arabs, chinese and illegals.
Get out of debt and turn you portfolio into at least25% of gold coins and or gold stock. stay liquid and ask God what to do. THERE IS FIXING TO BE SOME FANTASTIC DEALS OUT THERE FOR THE SMART ONES WITH CASH.
.....David
Has anyone out there ever looked into the "jubilee" principle? I understand Israel was to abide by this......Every 50 years debt was forgiven and slaves were freed.
Could we be experiencing "judgement by omission"?
......David
When the stock market does crash and money has become quite useless,
Before this comes, hyperinflation will set in. The cost of all things will increase almost daily. As soon as one gets paid, he or she will seek to purchase as much food and other essentials that that pay check will buy. Everyone but the wealthy will experience poverty in the way that third world nations live under.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”
What one earns in a day will pay for what one eats in a day in those days...
Those who have debt now will not necessarily be afflicted more than those who have little debt. Social unrest will impact all. Those who are seen to have food will be always be in fear of those who are hungry. A nation who has forgotten God will suffer under the grind of Satan.
If you want to understand what might occur again, read up on what happened in the 1930s in Germany. Hitler found a nation willing to sell it soul for the lie...
In Christ
Jeff
Dear Saints
Greetings in JEsus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
i asked our Lord a question concerning the business which He had us start some time ago, "Lord, how will this thing survive in the midst of a collapsed economy?" He has it all in Hand for sure but the simple answer is that buying and selling will continue, just not as freely as we know it now. The scripture which bro Rookie quoted speaks of a time when we may have to work for food to eat to live. bro Compton had some wise words for us and i hope we heed them:
Just remember, laying awake at night with fears of the economy crashing doesn't lessen your debt...only a plan with a schedule and a budget will do that. So once you get a plan in place, protect your mind and emotions so you can hang in there and work your plan consistently.
my wife and i recently have worked to consolidate our unsecured debt. we have yet to finalize things on that but in the process we learned some interesting bits of info. Companies which consolidate debt buy your debt as a derivative for pennies on the dollar from your creditor. Then they turn around and make you pay it all and so there is a killing being made doing this right now. it seems to stem from the fact that much of the money being loaned to people doesn't exist until we apply for it...sometime about fractional reserve lending? i don't know if all our debt will be forgiven but it is interesting how greed can drive men to conceive such plans...a bank can lend up to 10 times what it has in cash reserves, i'm not sure who keeps us with whether that is done properly, but i figure if they can do 10 times, they can do 20 and so on...
as i believe our Lord showed me what would ensue from the economic collapse and destruction of NYC and DC, the government will be unable to keep the peace and unrest of a kind which has probably never been seen here before will ensue. The military will come to the aid of police but that won't be enough and that will be the undoing of our military.
i was speaking to m brother in law Gabriel (Jimm on this site) who is in Zimbabwe now and living the thing which is coming here soon. Another case study of what shall come would be Zimbabwe, at least in terms of the economic and social effect. 80% unemployment, inflation at over 9000%, corruption, starvation, disease and so on. Of course not all the happenings in Zimbabwe may necessarily be applicable here, but certainly i believe there are some things which we can learn.
at any rate dear saints the bottom line is simply to be focused on Jesus. At the end of the day, therein is our All, He will surely guide us and show us what we ought to do day by day and His Grace is sufficient for us all and in that i place all my hope. our Lord hasn't said for me to do anything in preparation as yet so i have no choice but to trust that He has made provisions, even if they are meagre.
Grace and Peace are ours in JEsus.AMEN.
You will find that often our fear over our money is because we haven't learned to control it. Dave does a good job of taking the dread and foreboding out of your debt problems and gets you feeling hopeful again.
I like Dave's frequent cliche's about being debt free. The key to being debt free is [i]contentment[i]below
The challenge then becomes for folk that have health issues and children that need health care in the US. One extended trip to the hospital can bankrupt a family without insurance, even if they have their mortgage paid, etc. In our part of the country the not-for- profit hospitals were bought out by big investors and consolidated into a brand new huge hospital. I guess what I'm saying is, the world seems to always have a way of keeping a hook in our jaw.
I would like some input from those who understand the financial world. When the stock market does crash and money has become quite useless, what happens to those people that owe large sums of money to banks?
Okay, it goes like this:
A low-interest-rates-economy is good for borrowers because it means you have less interest to pay back (ie, it's cheaper to pay back the money you borrowed to buy all those things you thought you needed but you really didn't).
A high-interest-rates-economy is bad for borrowers because it costs you way more to pay back the same amount of money.
Today, because interest rates are low, you might pay anywhere between 6-8% on your mortgage.
In the mid 80s, when interest rates were through the roof, you'd be paying 18-24% on a mortgage (ie, on the high end, a quarter of your monthly payment would go to interest alone).
Now, most mortgages have floating interest rates - this means they track the interest rates set by your national bank (for instance, the Federal Reserve or the Bank of Canada)... I'll get back to this in a minute.
When interest rates are low, lots of people are borrowing money, therefore, the Federal Reserve has to print lots of money. The more money there is in a given economy, the less each individual dollar's worth (because there's so many of them). This is called [i]inflation
Sometimes, inflation can get a little out of control and dollars start plummeting in value - as is happening to the late/great American dollar today. The primary reason for inflation is low interest rates because they make borrowing so much more affordable. The more people borrowing, the more money needs to be printed, the more money in the system, the less each dollar's worth. Okay so far?
When inflation gets out of control, the "boys in the backroom" begin to raise interest rates, which means borrowers have to pay back more money on their loans, making credit less attractive, and, thus, less people borrow money, which means less dollars in circulation, which means each individual dollar's worth more. This is called [i]deflation
Unfortunately, in a deflationary economy people with [i]floating mortgages
To kick the homeowners while they're down, less people want to buy their homes at 18-24% interest rates - thus, people that mortgaged their homes during the low-interest, easy-credit, high-property-price market, will find their homes worth far less than they were before.
Say you borrowed $400,000.00 at 6% interest in 1977 to purchase your house. To curb rampant inflation, the Federal Reserve increases interest rates every year for the next five years.
Fast-forward to 1982, you are paying 22% interest on a $400,000 loan. The monthy payments are killing you, so you put a "For Sale" sign on your front lawn. No one's willing to pay you more than $200,000 for your house because nobody can afford it "with interest rates being so high, and all". You've defaulted on some payments. The wife is yelling at you because you can't afford to take her to Hawaii like you promised. The kids are hungry. You go bankrupt. Greedy guys in suits forclose on your house...
This is why the Founding Fathers wrote in the Constitution, Article 1, Section 10, Paragraph 1, Clause 4:
[i]No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
Paper can be printed. Gold and silver cannot be.
[i]"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies". - Thomas Jefferson
[i]"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning". - Henry Ford
Hope this helps.
How would this work for debts such as student loans?
Cory-h ,Yes this is all true.I would like to add that lenders who are there for one reason only,to make money,have adopted a "dice game" approach to lending.Just loan money to everybody. The "payers" out number the "nonpayers" so we COULD stand to make a fortune.
Real estate agents get their big commission checks and move on to the next big deal leaving stressed out homeowners in their wake.[they think in terms of commission not client's best interest]
If you run the numbers on the aversge household you see they live in a illusion.You see the big car and fancy house and think"wow what do they do for a living"?
It usually is all props.
WELIVE IN A MAKE BELIEVE SOCIETY
Most people have turned in their church membership to worship at the alter of baale. Self is king.
Only a miricle can turn this around which means only one thing.....REVIVAL.
There is also a factor that is overlooked in this discussion. ONE WORLD GOV......Look at the strategic blunder we are stepping in.
China is making our ballbearings.
Guess what our military CANNOT do without.....BALLBEARINGS
"they" have almost got us.
.......David
MSeaman, You and me will be just fine! Our God will provide! You will find work when it seems impossible and you WILL be able to pay your loan!
You caan take that to the bank! [no pun intended]
......David
David-Thank you for the words of encouragement.
The only debt my husband and I have are 2 car payments and my student loan. It isn't that I am worried, I just wondered how those types of loans would be handled. It isn't like they can come and take my education away. :)
I think God has been urging me to pay down my debt for years, I just haven't listened to the urging of the Holy Spirit. I used to make nearly twice as much money in the commercial sector as I now make working for a Christian non-profit, and I'm putting more towards my debts... thats just the sad state of things.
My Pastor had once preached about the chains that keep us from going out and doing God's will in our lives... two of them that applied to me where my debt and my weight (health).
About a year ago I made the mistake of reading KP Yohannan's books, all of them. I don't necessarily agree with all of his missiology, but he does have a very good perspective on living simply. I also was listening to a lot of Zac Poonen at the time which echoed the same mentality.
More recently I was reading Hudson Taylor's Spiritual Secret, and it talked about the decisions that he made in his youth to simplify his life and to put his money towards better uses. I realized that my job is not my only source of income, over the past 25 years I've built up quite a big pile of 'things.' I finally found the urgency to start selling them recently.
Right now I have 7 bibles on eBay, 5 of them are in fine bindings. Oxford, Cambridge and Holman. If you're looking for a nice bible check them out (do a search for 'morocco bible')... ironically I put them up before this thread even appeared.
I don't think we can count on jubilee to free us of our debts as much as we can't count on rapture to free us of our duty to preach the gospel!
For hundreds of years Protestant Christians have been known for their hard work... if we're in debt, it's most likely because of our own materialism or lack of financial discipline... at least thats my case. God never gave me the impression that he's going to forgive my debts here on earth, but I have been given the strong impression by the Holy Spirit that this work, saving, scimping, paying off my debts is probably beneficial for my walk with Jesus.
This is interesting...
...I heard that during the great depression the banks didnt foreclose on the people that were mortgaged to their necks.Instead they foreclosed on those that were almost paid off.
Robert's comments about health care and providing for families is an important topic. On one hand all stuff we buy with money is just stuff..but on the other hand, the medical care, the shelter, food, and clothes we buy with money is important. I believe it is important to our Father as well. He has put his heart in us fathers and mothers to provide for our children. Yet what is a fatherand mother to do when money is scarce?
I had a friend who once wiped the sweat off his brow and quipped to me "Money may not buy happiness, but it sure helps pay off unhappiness." Well there is more then one way to keep financial sorrow at bay...aquiring more and more shrinking dollars is only one way.
Several members of my family including my parents, grandmother, aunts, and uncles, have figured out another way. They have all sold their homes and modified a single house to share together. They each assume roles within the home, and remarkably, even with two teenagers, the place is one of the most low stress environments you'll ever see. Now, it should be admitted that all pretense of being prozac perfect saints with one another is tossed out the window in this situation...there is respect and love... but there are also occasional arguments of course. However the 'stress' from those occasional tiffs is nothing compared to the increasing daily stress of having to generate high dollar volumes just to eat and sleep in expensive homes.
I believe their strategy will become more normal in the coming years. The essence of a good strategy should be hope over dispair. Should the dollar falter or the economy compress, the most powerful currency won't really be gold---it will be the love of God that can afford to give what money can no longer buy. We may learn to push money out of our hearts now, in order to make room for one another there and in our homes as well. :-)
Blessings saints,
MC
Brethren
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
i have spoken to a couple of saints about living simply and they don't seem to be interested. Each time i mentioned it, i'd get a blank stare or no response to an email. i keep mentioning Acts 2 and the community which was at the first and the simplicity in it, there was much Joy and Peace therein because the focus was Jesus. Of course we experience this to some degree individually but how much more when there is a community of such kind? bro Mike Compton said:
I believe their strategy will become more normal in the coming years. The essence of a good strategy should be hope over dispair. Should the dollar falter or the economy compress, the most powerful currency won't really be gold---it will be the love of God that can afford to give what money can no longer buy. We may learn to push money out of our hearts now, in order to make room for one another there and in our homes as well.
this was powerful dear saints, no it IS powerful. on so many levels we are consumed with money such that we don't take on one another's burdens as we ought and hence we lead lives of quiet desperation...i am amazed by the people who will just open up to me sometimes and pour out their griefs/concerns simply because they need an ear. Not someone to judge and advize but to listen and have compassion and offer a prayer. We pretend so much that all is well yet our lives are so desperately out of control and few acknowledge this for fear of perhaps being judged or whatever and yet as believers, we ought to be a community sharing one another's burdens.
i believe like bro Mike that communal living will become more common, um without the hallucinogens that is for you older folk from the 60s :-P, i heard about y'all...i mentioned that idea to some and can you guess the response i got?
ultimately, the Love God and His Spirit will be the only thing can bring us through what i believe is before us. Yet it seems for many people i talk to, this MOst Essential thing is scarce :-(
God Help us.AMEN.
Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
Mseaman asked,
How would this work for debts such as student loans?
Odds are, you have "floating interest" on your student loans - this means if interest rates rise, payments on your loans will rise.
I thank you for all the replies thus far, I hope this thread serves as a base to encourage one another with this type of information for those of us that are in debt and even those that are considering going into debt. Your answers have all been enlightening and I can feel the sincerity.
A few years back my Banking institution gave me a 20,000 dollar line of credit and a Visa gold card of $80,000. I turned down both offers and went with a 10,000 dollar line of credit and a $5,000 visa card. They didn't check what I had like a car house etc.. they just gave it to me. The interest rate for the line of credit is 9% plus 4%prime. The interest rate for the visa at the start was 8% now it's 12%. I don't spend frivolously. The line of credit has been used on building material to build up my apartment. I have been living in the living room and bedroom for the last few years but my kitchen is still not done because I have been so hesitant on spending anymore money, because of the uncertainty. I want to get out of debt and just use money that I earn to get more of the work done that needs to be done to make my kitchen workable, than to buy on credit and paying that off.
The credit card was used for building material, restaurants, and sometimes groceries. For the last few months I managed to get the line of credit down and my intention was to use the line of credit to pay off the visa card. Yesterday I payed off the bulk of the visa and left some because my next bill is on the 13th and then I will completely pay them off on that day.
I got a letter the other day from the bank stating that it has dropped the monthly payment plan of 300 dollars for the line of credit to just paying the interest/or $75. I have no intention to just paying that amount, I want to pay off the principle.
Since I don't use my visa card anymore, yet I still have it in my wallet. And believe me there is no temptation to use it, I lived simply before I can do it again. Do you think I should keep it or should I cut it up?
Comptom wrote:
Several members of my family including my parents, grandmother, aunts, and uncles, have figured out another way. They have all sold their homes and modified a single house to share together.
I am curious: how many people live under this roof? or, better yet, mind sharing more details about this arrangement? It is a fascinating concept...
ginnyrose
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