BSBKJVWEBYLTASVBBEWMBT4TDBY|HymnsMusicDonate
Menu
Theology

Did Jesus Choose?

B
BenK Oct 3, 2007

I was at a Bible study last night and we were talking about Christ being reluctant("take this cup") to go to the cross but deciding to follow the will of the Father.
I've been thinking about a question. If Jesus was fully man and fully God(and He was) was it really possible for him to choose something in rebellion to the Fathers will? I realize that because He was human, He was tempted and had contrary desires, but could He have actually decided NOT to die. Wouldn't that have been sin? If Jesus had sinned, He would not have been God! God is not double minded. I know this might open the door to thoughts about "sinless perfection" through Christ in us, I don't really want to go there. I just wanted to know if anyone had any input

M
MSeaman Oct 3, 2007

I started to write a few paragraphs to answer, but decided it made no sense except to me so I will try to simplify and say this: No Jesus couldn't have chosen not to go because He is God. He had no will of His own, only that of the Father. Scripture states this clearly.

If you want me to elaborate, I'll try to collect my thoughts into something coherent.

B
BenK Oct 3, 2007

I have heard teaching throughtout my life that puts emphasis on the "choice" that Jesus made. For instance, "He could have called down 10,000 angels to take Him off the cross if he had wanted to, but He loved us so much that He chose to die"
What do you make of this?

M
MSeaman Oct 3, 2007

Hi Ben,
I have also heard this, but I cannot believe that Jesus Christ would have gone against His Father. In His whole life, He never did anything except what the Father told Him to do. He made that statement several times in the Gospels. Jesus made His choice before He was born, if that makes sense? Once He came in the flesh, His course was set. Please let us continue this conversation and if you'd like, I will find the Scripture on which I base my belief.

B
BenWilliams Oct 3, 2007

In discussing this issue, we must remember that Jesus was fully God, and fully man. While Christ was and is God, and it was Jesus will that He die on the cross.

So, Jesus, as God would not go against His own will. However, remembering that He was also a man, it was His physical body, and physical mind which was afraid of the cross.

Now, Christ was not afraid of the physical cross, that would be almost ludicrous, becaus thousands of Christ's disciples have gone to their martyrdom rejoicing, as they die. Read Hebrews 11 where some would not accept release from prison, as they wanted a more glorious ressurection. So we can understand that if the followers were not afraid to die, then neither would the captain be such.

So what was Christ afraid of? It was the wrath of God, He was fearful in His physical body of the wrath of God, and in His physical body, did not want to taste of the wrath of God. For who can taste the wrath of God, and live?

So it makes more sense in the light of understanding what Christ was afraid of, and how the battle was not between Christ (God) and the Father, but it was between his human frame, and the will of God. And He chose with His human body to partake of the wrath of God.

M
MSeaman Oct 3, 2007

Ben Williams...you said that so much better than I did! :-D

P
PreachParsly Oct 3, 2007

take this cup

So what was Christ afraid of? It was the wrath of God,

I've wondered about that interpretation. If it is so, then the disciples must have also tasted the wrath of God, right?

Mar 10:38\tBut Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar 10:39\tAnd they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

M
MSeaman Oct 3, 2007

I thought it was the fact that all the sins of the world were placed on Him and that God was going to turn His face away from Him, that made Jesus ask for the cup to be taken...

sermonindex Oct 3, 2007

Hi BenK,

I also started answering earlier, but felt I should wait and see how others would respond - if at all. I forgot how emotive the matter of choice is, over there.

First, I agree with Melissa that He chose to die before He was ever incarnate, because He was the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. The Godhead had a plan which They had already begun to put into effect, before Adam was formed from the dust of the ground.


Ben makes good points about Jesus' humanity, but I don't believe He was afraid. He had said He desired ferently to eat the last Passover with them, and also, after the Mount of Transfiguration, had set His face [as a flint] to go to Jerusalem [u]to accomplish His decease[/u]. (Luke's account.) Then in John 10, He says that no-one is taking His life from Him, He is laying it down of Himself. He is actively engaged in doing the laying down of His life.

This is why He could dismiss His spirit, after [b]He[/b] said 'It is finished'. It didn't finish Him. He finished it.

This was the accomplishment of Eve's seed bruising the serpent's head with His heel. He always told Satan to get behind Him. He knew who He was and when facing the cross, despised the shame of it for the joy which was set before Him. In this, He became the Finisher of faith. There is an interesting statement in John 10 which I have never heard expounded, (so here's my two cents), where He alludes to having asked His Father something; John writes:

17 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18 "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, [u]and I have power to take it again[/u]. [b]This command I have received from My Father[/b]."

Going back to Gesthemane then, I believe what He was not looking forward to, was 'tasting' [u]sin[/u]\\death (which is represented in the vinegar He sucked out of the sponge, just before He cried 'It is finished' and gave up His spirit).

He was the Prince of Life, and He had to become sin and taste death. Uughh.

According to an elder brother here, the Hebrew understanding of 'taste' was like their understanding of 'hour'. One hour included the whole day. Likewise, to taste death, is to take the full draught of it.


I don't think the Son was ever rebellious, because He had seen what happened when Lucifer rebelled - how he was cast out of heaven and the presence of God in all His glory - and He deeply desired to redeem mankind from that same fate of eternal separation. When Satan tried to kill Him from time to time on earth, they were 'old' sparring partners, and the order was always that the Son pleased the Father, loved and obeyed Him, and Satan was always subservient, getting behind Jesus when Jesus told him to, and diabolical.

But, Jesus found out the limitations of being a Man and came to appreciate fully, what it was to be tempted to sin. Nevertheless, between the joy that was set before Him when it came to enduring the cross, and glory which He desired to return to of which we read in John 17, He stayed focused until He had fulfilled all that the Father had entrusted Him to be and do.

Perhaps there was one other thing which helped Him live perfectly - the knowledge that His blood would finally cleanse the heavenlies, (Heb 9:23), and that those men who followed in His footsteps (die\\dead to sin - Rom 6) could receive the Holy Spirit and be received there one day.

Hebrews is a great book for getting to grips with these things. These (last) verses come to mind.

Hebrews 10
4 For [i]it is[/i] not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come --
In the volume of the book it is written of Me --
To do Your will, O God.' "


Remember, David was the man after God's own heart - who subdued kingdoms, prophesied, played the harp and sang psalms.

Psalms 22:22
I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly [u]I will praise You[/u].

Psalms 22:25
My praise [i]shall be[/i] of You in the great assembly;
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.

Hebrews 2:12
saying: "I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You."


Remembering Jesus was the [u]Word[/u] made Flesh, I believe He knew what He was coming to fulfill and that He couldn't fulfill it any other way.


Psalm 22 again
9 But You [i]are[/i] He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust [i]while[/i] on My mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother's womb You [i]have been[/i] My God.
11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble [i]is[/i] near;
For [i]there is[/i] none to help.

T
thomasm Oct 4, 2007

Ive always looked at this verse this way;
Jesus thought that his physical body was going to die right there in the garden, because he was at the point of sweating blood and very weak," Father take this cup from me, but not my will, but yours be done."
Then the answer came, An angel came and ministered to him. What do you think?

love in CHRIST tom

M
MSeaman Oct 4, 2007

Dorcas-a beautiful post as always.

P
psalm1 Oct 6, 2007

Mseaman, Yes i also believe "the cup" issue was a huge far reaching dilema. How can sin be placed on God? This is seemingly impossible.This had to be what Jesus was refering to.
Not the sin of a man but the sin of the world.
This salvation we have is so great and awesome the human mind doesnt have the capacity to fully fathem it.
...David

L
Lavishes Oct 6, 2007

I was at a Bible study last night and we were talking about Christ being reluctant("take this cup") to go to the cross but deciding to follow the will of the Father.
I've been thinking about a question. If Jesus was fully man and fully God(and He was) was it really possible for him to choose something in rebellion to the Fathers will? I realize that because He was human, He was tempted and had contrary desires, but could He have actually decided NOT to die. Wouldn't that have been sin? If Jesus had sinned, He would not have been God! God is not double minded. I know this might open the door to thoughts about "sinless perfection" through Christ in us, I don't really want to go there. I just wanted to know if anyone had any input

Firstly I feel it is important to address what you believe the cup meant to Jesus Christ?

To cut to the point the cup among the fact that it meant the sins of mankind, the wrath of God, disease, insult, wickedness, violence, suffering and beating from the Roman guards, I believe the most crucial meaning to Jesus Christ was that this cup meant separation from the Father. Perfect LOVE, that knew no separation for eternity past to eternity future, for a moment in time had to separate from God. Jesus Christ had to bear the separation of God the Father "Eloi Eloi Lama Shabahtani" my God my God why have you forsaken me? It's like tearing your body in half, that's what it meant to Jesus Christ. It meant EVERYTHING to Jesus Christ because God the Father and God the Son were inseparable and had never known separation.

So essentially Jesus Christ God, was choosing between being separated from God the Father for that moment in time (whether it was hours or eternity no one knows but separation it was) or from being separated from mankind for eternity.

Jesus Christ made a choice to bear the wrath of God and ultimately the separation from the one He loved perfectly to give us a chance at being redeemed.

Yes it was a choice, He definitely had the choice of rejecting mankind and being in the presence of God uninterrupted, or accepting the cup and being separated from God, something God had never experienced before. That is AGAPE, that is love. Love is a choice, always a choice. If Jesus Christ had refused the cup He would not have been sinning because He was not obliged to do what He did on behalf of God. For God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, for whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Glory to God Hallelujah!!! :-) :-)

W
Warrior4Jah Oct 6, 2007

At school we had a discussion about this with the following as basis:

1) POSSE PECCARE: Choice not to sin (like Adam).
2) NON POSSE NON PECCARE: Not able to not sin.
3) POSSE NON PECCARE: Power to not sin.
4) NON POSSE PECCARE: Not able to sin.

Adam was able to choose [edit]not[/edit] to sin, we are not able not to sin, but as believers we receive the power of the HS not to sin. But at times when we are not close to God or just deceiving ourselves we do sin. Apart from all those (small) sins we do we don't know about.

Choosing 4 would mean that the satan trying to tempt Jesus in the desert would be a facade, why would he try if it was impossible?

Myself I did choose for 4 (with only 3 other classmates) as its just impossible for God to be divided in himself. But as Jesus being fully man he also became hungry.
My teacher said he was between 3 and 4, but very close to 4. As that Jesus would have the choice to make bread of the stones, but it would never come up in His mind.

Liberals might preach 2, Jesus did sin, etc. One and 3 is weird as you can imagine it is by far unlikely that Jesus had a hard time not sinning.

Where do you guys stand?

[edit2]Ah my memory failed me!I said this in class: I choose 1, 3 and 4. But afterwards I found 4 with a tidbit 3 not bad.

B
BenK Oct 6, 2007

Thanks for all the input so far.

Dorcas, I really love how your heart comes out in your posts

It's one of those things that is hard for me to wrap my head around. BenWilliams-I think you captured the feeling of there being an answer but not an easy one! Although I also disagree that Jesus was afraid.

The cool thing is, I don't have to understand it!
Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, came to this earth and poured out His blood so that I could be brought from death into life!! Praise His Holy Name! He deserves all of my life and I will give it to Him. My heart leaps inside of me for the priceless blessing of life that He has given me.

Sorry, I got sidetracked:)

That's an interesting question about satan tempting Jesus. I'm thinking that satan is not omniscient. He had to tempt Jesus now that He was in bodily form and in his domain to see if it were now possible to get Him to rebel. Notice that scripture doesn't say that satan continued to tempt him after that. He gave it a shot and then saw the futility.

Warrior-I would probably have to go with 4
BUT with some ever so slight leanings into 3 ;-)

This discussion is locked.

Archived
1 of 15 posts