Critical Ravenhill

This is not meant to run down a great man of God, it's more of a question:

After listening to a selection of Leonard Ravenhill's sermons, I'm confronted on a number of subjects.

However, besides the obvious truth behind his messages does anyone else wonder about the consistent cheerlessness, criticism and hopelessness he seemingly conveys?

I think (stress the word "think") I heard a David Wilkerson sermon where he said something about Leonard ending up as bitter and unhappy in his later years.

Again, this isn't to run the man down but there seems to be a sour thread (understandably) in much of his teaching and I was curious what others thought and what we might be able to learn from this...

I belive his consistent cheerlessness as you put it is a godly sorrow, I belive he had a burden larger then most christians. I think he weept more for peoples sin then they themselfes. I belive when we really love, is when we see people as God sees them. And most often that is terrible sight....

his criticism is not so much criticism as it is truth or stated facts in my view

I do think he had joy, i think from what I can hear in his teachings he had a wonderful sense of humor :-) or maybe just me who thinks he does.

I havent been saved so long, but i am already tired of this false and lukewarm "professing" Christianity, what about when seeing it for 50-60 years? as Ravenhill?

Just some thoughts

Christian

hmmhmm wrote:
I belive his consistent cheerlessness as you put it is a godly sorrow, I belive he had a burden larger then most christians. I think he weept more for peoples sin then they themselfes. I belive when we really love, is when we see people as God sees them. And most often that is terrible sight....

his criticism is not so much criticism as it is truth or stated facts in my view

I do think he had joy, i think from what I can hear in his teachings he had a wonderful sense of humor :-) or maybe just me who thinks he does.

I havent been saved so long, but i am already tired of this false and lukewarm "professing" Christianity, what about when seeing it for 50-60 years? as Ravenhill?

Just some thoughts

Christian

I've listened to several of Ravenhill's sermons and I have found the same to be true. Well stated, Christian.

One of the employees in the ministry where I work was a member of YWAM missions overseas in the 1980's. He said that by the time that he had joined YWAM Ravenhill and Keith Green had both recieved a odious reputation among YWAMers.

He refered to Leonard Ravenhill as 'Leonard Ravenous.'

One reason I think that Leonard Ravenhill might have been bitter in his old age was that people who were once friends and supporters turned against his teachings (before or soon after his death).

I am reminded of John 6:60,66 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? ... From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

But Leonard Ravenhill rightly defined a [url=http://www.ravenhill.org/prophet.htm]Prophet[/url] in his book 'America is too young to die.' Which starts:

The prophet in his day is fully accepted of God and totally rejected by men.

Years back, Dr. Gregory Mantle was right when he said, "No man can be fully accepted until he is totally rejected." The prophet of the Lord is aware of both these experiences. They are his "brand name."

I think what seems to happen with men and women of God who have been set in place, especially internationally, they seem to be a counter balance to what's happening in the church. Here is what I mean, say a movement is going North at 40 miles per hour, it is the wrong direction, so God raises up a man or woman who will tackle that moving object (in this case it's the church movement), the only way that can be done is to have equal or more force moving at a faster pace heading south, until there's a collision, than the church is forced to stand at the cross roads and make a decision, "choice".

Think about John the baptist, he was an ascetic to the max, self denial plus on steroids, this dude was off the hook, But God (Jesus) praised him and said there no greater prophet than he! That's even better than hearing well done good and faithful servant! He was double blessed in that he obtained a more excellant name on earth as well as in heaven.

If I was to make a guess I would probably say that Ravenhill may sit somewhere in there, one things for sure---- No one will ever die and go to hell by following his doctrine.

Sometimes it is very hard to sit by and watch things deteriorate as a minister. There is an urgency that increases as time seems to be running out. The challenge is to experience this without coming off as harsh and critical. When I hear Ravenhill I am hearing a man that is very concerned about the state of the Church.

I was recently in with a man that is dying. On this particular day he thought it would be his last. He is very very ill. He called the family over and begin to speak DIRECTLY to them in a very serious and some would argue 'harsh' way. Everyone knew it was a loving plea to WAKE UP before it is too late. He tells the one to stop going to the bars before it sends their soul strait to hell. He begs others to get in church. This went on one by one as he plead with them to turn from their wicked ways and turn to Christ.

Moments like these are not pretty. But it remonds me of Paul in Acts 21 that for 3 years he warned the people [i]night[/i] and [i]day[/i]with [u]tears[/u]. This is urgency. This is the care of the churches. This is a great burden that does not always manifest in ways that are comfortable and delightful. Sometimes it can get very uncomfortable.

Hi MisterCheez...

I think that I understand how such a sentiment could be taken from simply listening to some of his messages. However, many of his messages are also mingled with wit and humor that reflect his understanding of the age and his own inner joy in the Lord.

As a young teen, I met with Brother Ravenhill in his home shortly before he died. He was both polite and kind. He was certainly somber -- as serious times merit serious attitudes. But he was also a man who reflected the inner joy of knowing our Lord. He spoke about being heartbroken from realizing the condition of the modern Church. He told me that he was writing a new work entitled "Why Revival STILL Tarries" which was dedicated to those who read the first book ("Why Revival Tarries") yet had done nothing.

Even with the terrible responsibility that comes with the realization of the condition of the modern Church, Brother Ravenhill still seemed to convey a very real joy. In the course of our conversation, he encouraged me to not be discouraged. Even when all hope seems lost -- and both the world and Church may seem to be spiraling into deeper darkness, Brother Ravenhill reminded me that the victory of the ages ultimately belongs to Christ Jesus. No matter how dark it becomes, His Word will not return void.

In the midst of our meeting, Brother Ravenhill wept, warned and laughed (well, "chuckled" might be a better word). He warned me that the cost of "going all the way with God" could result in loneliness. But he smiled and told me that a man of God is NEVER alone. Not only are we surrounded by a "great cloud of witnesses," but we learn to grow ever more dependent upon the Lord for encouragement.

When I first heard a message by Brother Ravenhill, I noticed that he would sometimes jest about natural things. I remember him telling about how his garden fulfills the Word through "faith and works." He said that he has the "faith" while his wife has the "works."

Yet I am so glad that Brother Ravenhill didn't attempt to humor or impress us with a keen wit. Rather, his words have been a wakeup call in my own life. The world is damned. Should we attempt to remain acceptable and cheerful as the world dies -- or should we proclaim the truth as is revealed by God's Word? I think that Brother Ravenhill chose the latter while still encouraging himself in the Lord.

:-)

Like this thread ...

Had the same exact early reaction brother upon wandering into this wonder of wonders, I do believe my initial reaction was that he was "harsh". That later turned to not harsh enough (in many aspects) and to the point now where he is something of a long lost grandfather, perhaps even a spiritual one at that ...

I do cringe a bit when some who have been once impressed, taken or otherwise challenged by this unique man of God now find themselves having ... 'outgrown' him ... maybe and funny but suddenly a Ravenhillesque notion takes hold, doubt they have [i]outgroaned[/i] him.

Our brother I believe had it right, godly sorrow... Have you listened\\watched the interview with him brother? The video speaks perhaps better.

hi, i am one who knew len and prayed with him and got to know his heart. i am a joy freak and will always be but i was tempered by those times with him.'THE CHRISTIANS OF TODAY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR TODAYS LOST' is his burden and further stated "there are more people dying and going to hell today than at any time in history" great love drove him to asullen, burdened life.jimp

Question: How do we draw the line between genuine godly sorrow that sets people apart which Ravenhill taught as opposed to frustration that comes from a carnal "I'm right, everyone's wrong" kind of attitude?

I ask because I often see people who start with the former, but get deceived into becoming the latter due to lack of humillity, patience and accoutability towards fellow brethren that may lack similar conviction (I myself just had to deal with such a case this past weekend. While it's been resolved, it was quite uncomfortable nonetheless:cry:)

I sometimes ask myself the same questions. Too harsh, too cynical? Does he send us all on a guilt trip? Who does not feel the whip of his words coming down on his own flesh?
We have many teachers, but very few fathers. We have many preachers but very few true prophets. He was one and he still speaks to this generation. When he exposed lukewarm and false Christianity in his day whith harsh words, what would Ravenhill tell the church of today??
He definitely was not a dry eyed prophet. I do not feel condemned by him. Together wih Art Katz, Paul Washer and Zac Poonen he always stirs me up in the Spirit and causes me to draw closer to God.

Philip

As Alan Martin often says, even if a statement is true or accurate, that doesnt necessarily mean it is pleasing in God's eyes.

When the 10 Israelites came back with an "evil report" about the land of Canaan, it wasnt a false report. Everything they said was true... there were giants in the land and overwhelming odds against them. It was the fact that they were faithless in giving the report. The other two came back with the exact same things to share. But they had faith in God to move in them and give them victory.

We need to have the same attitude when addressing the church. It is an "evil report" to blast the 'state of the church in america' without faith that God will come in and have His victory in us. It is an 'evil report' to talk about the overwhelmingly bad situation and the odds against us without believing God for victory.

Love hopes all things. We will be judged for every idle and misspoken word.

I think perhaps the deep despair Ravenhill might have felt at the end of his life, if such a report is indeed true, and the seemingly "bitterness" in his preaching, is the product of Ravenhill having some ideas that dominated his preaching that smacked more of romanticism than were necessarily deeply rooted in Scripture.

I love listening to and reading Leonard Ravenhill... but I have to agree about the critical thing maybe being a little too overwhelming for some (including myself).

Just from personal experience, I know that if I listen to too much Ravenhill and read too much Ravenhill it becomes extremely easy to become Legalistic. Mainly because of the heavy burdens he preaches and romantic ideals he lifts up. I find it always good to enjoy his teaching in moderation mixed in with a little Andrew Murray and other like teachers.

-DO

I think perhaps the deep despair Ravenhill might have felt at the end of his life, if such a report is indeed true, and the seemingly "bitterness" in his preaching, is the product of Ravenhill having some ideas that dominated his preaching that smacked more of romanticism than were necessarily deeply rooted in Scripture.

I have had that thought cross my mind also. Sometimes I think that the emphasis can center more on how many hours a person can pray than whether or not God is well pleased that we are about the Master's business. This, in my opinion, is how revival's fizzle out. The ultimate goal in seeing a people revived is that they would get about the work with a pure heart fervently. If folk hang around too long waiting on a great move of God they may well get nothing done. Maybe I am too much like Finney in that regard.

Everyone has to make up their place in the hedge and do what God has called them to do. I cannot allow some of the extreme practices of 10:00 PM to 4:00 AM praying 365 days a year take hold of my conscience. I have to do what God has called [i]me[/i] to do. That is the only way I can please God. I have to work a job and provide for my family. I have to tend to their needs [i]first[/i]. Will God reward a man for praying 6 hours a day when he specifically gave instruction to train up His children, etc. and make provision for his own? It would take three men to accomplish some of the things that are pointed out in books and sermons on revival if a person tried to be all of them. I can't be a Brainard, Hyde, Finney, Wesley, etc. all rolled up onto one. I can't have a Hebrides revival every month in our community. But I can get about what God has called me to do- live in personal revival with a clear conscience- filled with the Spirit and set about to accomplish as much as I can in this short life on earth led of the Spirit.

This is not meant to run down a great man of God, it's more of a question:

Inarguably, Ravenhill has powerfully touched many lives. I once heard a testimony of a missionary whom he had known and influenced. This Canadian (?) was with the Voice of the Martyrs at the time, working in Sudanese villages, trying to save them from genocide. It was an unbelievable message. I’ll never forget his story about the bullets raining down from helicopters onto the villagers - and he was in the middle of it all. I am convinced that if Ravenhill had heard that testimony, he would have been encouraged – seeing that God is indeed stirring people to give their lives for Christ – those whom he himself had discipled personally, or influenced through his books (me, for example).

Ten years ago, when I read Ravenhill’s books, I did not get the sense of dark grief that I picked up when listening to his sermons. Now I am suspecting that in his later years he was mourning a death of a dream: The very thing that he had passionately craved for, his one biggest hope, did not come true in his lifetime.

Perhaps we can learn from Ravenhill that we need to keep the joy of the Lord at the center of our heart – no matter how deeply we weep and no matter how dark the clouds get. I know for myself how despondency can easily creep in, even leading to cynicism. That’s why I frequently ask the Lord to show me a specific example of where he is working. This seems to be a good antidote. It also helps me remember that God is always working somewhere.

We can also learn from Ravenhill that it is important to keep our eyes on the Lord, more even than on revival or on the apostate church. After all, our hope is in the Lord, not in anything in this world. God is sovereign and has promised to build his Church. We can’t forget that. He works in his time, not ours.

If folk hang around too long waiting on a great move of God they may well get nothing done.

Diane

I cannot allow some of the extreme practices of 10:00 PM to 4:00 AM praying 365 days a year take hold of my conscience.

Indeed, I have no idea why such is considered a "spiritual" practice. Indeed, most serious Christians know what it is to perform a night watch, when one is so burdened by the Spirit of God that they are compelled to do such. But for it to be a regular personal or corporate discipline, simply isn't very practical... unless perhaps you are in full-time ministry and are single.

I have to work a job and provide for my family.

Indeed, and such is a "spiritual thing." So much so that Paul says that if one does not look after his own, and take care of his family, he's worse than an infidel. There are indeed some "practical" things that one must do in life. But even these practical things can be done in a spirit of worship that is just as pleasing to God. Indeed, those who are spiritual do everything as an act of worship to God.

That's not to say that we are free to neglect regular times simply to lie before the Lord. Nor is that to deny one might indeed have special seasons of devotion e.g. when fasting. But, ultimately all that matters is that whatever we do in word or deed, we do in the name of the Lord.