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Apostolic Doctrine

J
john1140 Oct 14, 2007

Hi Brothers and Sisters,
This morning I attended Sunday school at an Apostolic church and the teacher mentioned the importance of being baptized in Jesus' name only. She referenced Jesus' commandment to go out into all the earth...baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... but noted that the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus (or Christ) suggesting that the deed took precedence over the commandment.

The implications of her statement was:
1) baptism is necessary for salvation
2) baptizing is the means by which people are filled with the Holy Spirit (as if it were a separate event)
3)If an individual has not been baptized in the name of Jesus only, then he or she is not saved.

I was able to get a copy of their doctrinal statement, and the the last sentence troubles me..."We believe in the baptism in the water by immersion, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (I'm okay with this) and the baptism of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. This constitutes the new birth."

If any of you can direct me to a previous thread that address this issue, I'd appreciate it. As always, I look forward to any insight.

Sonya

B
BlazedbyGod Oct 14, 2007

I reference you to:

John 3:1-8 (verse 3-5)
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
Rom 6:1-12

3)If an individual has not been baptized in the name of Jesus only, then he or she is not saved

The remission of sins only come through being water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ-thus, if one has not been baptized in the name of Jesus they are still in sin, or better yet, sin is still in them. Acts 2:38 shows that it is indeed water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins.

Also Acts 4:12 showing how we are saved by the NAME of Jesus

" She referenced Jesus' commandment to go out into all the earth...baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... but noted that the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus (or Christ) suggesting that the deed took precedence over the commandment."

It is not that it took precedence OVER the commandment, it is that it was the answer and obedience to the commandment.


J
john1140 Oct 14, 2007

Thanks for responding. It is my understanding that we are baptized because we have received remission of sins through the blood of Jesus Christ (believing that He is the Christ and that He shed His blood on the cross for our sins).

B
BlazedbyGod Oct 14, 2007

Your welcome

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Scripture says we get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins.

The blood of Christ is attached to us through water baptism in his name.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

This was first done on the day of Pentecost.


P
psalm1 Oct 15, 2007

john1140,they probably came across the objection to their doctrine after they were already committed to the Jesus only position.
You will find that the Jesus only people are so dogmatic in their doctrine that they will actually accuse you of NOT being saved.
You will also find that you agree with them on most points of their doctrine. But they put their dogma out front as a actual point of fellowship.
You cant be a part of them and dissagree about their baptism doctrine. In their mind this point is just cause for division.
I have run into this several times and so far have seen no fruit.
I never have looked into their "holy Ghost doctrine"
.....David

J
john1140 Oct 15, 2007

Thanks for the insight David,
Funny you should bring up the point about division because one characterization a brother made during the lesson was the "nominal church" in comparison to the Apostolic church, with the latter being superior. I was thoroughly confused after that- it's not a term I've heard in this context. I am pretty disheartened right now with Church. My faith in Jesus Christ has not waned, but looking for a church is proving to be labor intensive :)

Thanks again.
sonya

R
running2win Oct 15, 2007

The remission of sins only come through being water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ-thus, if one has not been baptized in the name of Jesus they are still in sin, or better yet, sin is still in them.

How so? This looks like salvation by baptism docrine to me. John Wesley (and others) was never baptized after being baptized as an infant.
Thanks for responding. It is my understanding that we are baptized because we have received remission of sins through the blood of Jesus Christ (believing that He is the Christ and that He shed His blood on the cross for our sins).

That's exactly the way I understand it. I was born-again and then I was baptized. I'm not born-again [i]because[/i] I was baptized.

B
BlazedbyGod Oct 15, 2007


running2win wrote:
The remission of sins only come through being water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ-thus, if one has not been baptized in the name of Jesus they are still in sin, or better yet, sin is still in them.

How so? This looks like salvation by baptism docrine to me. John Wesley (and others) was never baptized after being baptized as an infant.
Thanks for responding. It is my understanding that we are baptized because we have received remission of sins through the blood of Jesus Christ (believing that He is the Christ and that He shed His blood on the cross for our sins).

quote]

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ [b]FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS[/b] and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You cannot be born-again without being born of WATER AND of the Spirit.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of [b]water [/b] AND of the Spirit, he CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Water in this verse is the greek word "hudor" and it's definition is: water
of water in rivers, in fountains, in pools
of the water of the deluge
of water in any of the earth's repositories
of water as the primary element, out of and through which the world that was before the deluge, arose and was compacted
of the waves of the sea
fig used of many people

[url=http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5204&version=kjv]See the definition of "water" in John 3:5[/url]

This whole principle is the very same thing, that Jesus experiences in Matt 3:

Matt 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the WATER: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the SPIRIT OF GOD descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The heavens "lo, the heavens WERE OPENED UP TO HIM" after he was WATER baptized, THEN the Spirit descended upon him. It was the water baptsim that "OPENED UP THE HEAVENS UNTO HIM" for the Spirit to descend upon him.

Jesus was not talking about water in a womans womb at natural birth-we know this, because the same principle as John 3:5,& Matt 3:13-17 is carried out in Acts 10:44-48

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid WATER, that these should not be BAPTIZED, WHICH have RECEIVED HOLY GHOST as well as we? 48 And he COMMANDED them to be BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Verse 47 Can ANY [b]MAN FORBID WATER[/b]..
Is Peter talking about the water/fluid in a mothers womb-[b][size=medium]NO[/size][/b]
because he goes on to say "...that these should not be [b]BAPTIZED WHICH HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL AS WE[/b]

Peter was talking to GROWN MEN, just like Jesus was when talking to Nicodemus.

Vers 48 Then he commanded them to be BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord.

What is the name of the Lord?-Jesus Christ

This is again the third time where Peter tells people to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized EVERYONE OF YOU, [b]IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS[/b].."

Acts 10:48 48 And he COMMANDED them to be BAPTIZED [b]IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.[/b]

R
running2win Oct 15, 2007

...that these should not be BAPTIZED WHICH HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL AS WE

But how could they have received the Holy Ghost if (as you say) their sins were still in them and they in their sins? Your understanding of scripture is inconsistant here. A person can't be filled with the Holy Ghost as Cornelius and his household were for what fellowship hath light with darkness. John said that whosoever [b][i]BELIEVETH[/i][/b] on him should [b]NOT PERISH[/b] but have everlasting life. He didn't say that whosever gets baptized should not perish.
According to you John Wesley is burning hell as we converse and Luther and many others. Their lives speak for themselves so I don't need to try and prove to you that they were men of God.
To me that understanding of the doctrine of baptism is a dangerous one to hold.

sermonindex Oct 16, 2007

Hi Sonya,

You bring up a very good question -this is certainly a very important issue and is essential to have our doctrine to be correct concerning this, seeing it is a salvation issue. You said:

This morning I attended Sunday school at an Apostolic church and the teacher mentioned the importance of being baptized in Jesus' name only. She referenced Jesus' commandment to go out into all the earth...baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... but noted that the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus (or Christ) suggesting that the deed took precedence over the commandment.

This is a huge 'red flag' right here. She begins by quoting Jesus when He commanded His apostles (and us) to baptize all converts in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, but then she goes on to "explain away" what Jesus said and to basically say it doesn't apply to us. This is the area of specialty for cults and heretical sects; to take scripture and twist it, explaining it away, while conveniently quoting only the scriptures that can easily be 'read into' to develop their own pet doctrine and to support their own preconceived views. Whenever somebody explains away a clear command of Jesus, saying it doesn't apply, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!! In the very next verse, after Jesus says to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, He says, "Teaching them to observe [u]all things whatsoever I have commanded you[/u]: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." -Mat 28:20. We are to teach and practice ALL THINGS THAT JESUS COMMANDED. What right do we have to explain it away? This is to twist and pervert scripture and to "take away from the words of this book", something commonly done among modern day theologians who want to explain away all the 'hard sayings' of Jesus to make the gate that leads to life broader than it really is.

Let me answer her three implications:

1) baptism is necessary for salvation

Though baptism is very important and is commanded by Jesus, it is certainly not "neccesary for salvation". Scripture says, [i]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)[/i] We are saved by God's grace alone, and that through faith, which is itself the gift of God. We are not saved by grace through baptism, but grace through faith!

[i]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(Romans 3:23-28)[/i]

We are justified (declared righteous and restored to right relationship with God through forgiveness of sins) freely through the redemption that is in Jesus (through His finished work on the Cross) through faith alone in the merits of His shed blood that atoned for our sin in full. We are justified by faith alone, by beliving in Jesus, apart from any deeds or works.

I would reccomend reading all of Romans chapter 4 and 5, talking about justification by faith. In Romans 4, circumcision is a 'foreshadow' of baptism. Both are symbolic of cutting away wickedness from the heart and a covenant sign of faith in the true God. Also read Galtians chapter 3, which speaks of justification by faith alone.

[i]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:14-18)[/i]
. According to Jesus, whoever believes in Him (with a true, living faith) has everlasting life. Period.

[i]For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:3-7)[/i]

There are MANY, MANY other scriptures we could quote, but this is sufficient enough alone to prove the case that salvation is by grace through faith alone, apart from any works.

2) baptizing is the means by which people are filled with the Holy Spirit (as if it were a separate event)

This is not true and contradicts the whole of Scripture. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb:

[i]And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and [u]he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.[/u] (Luke 1:12-15)[/i]

And we must remember, John the Baptist was still under the old covenant. So if he could be filled with the Spirit from his mothers womb under the old covenant, without being baptised, when grace through Christ was not yet revealed in full and when His blood was not yet shed for the remission of sins, then how much more can we be saved and filled with the Spirit now that we are under grace, apart from any "extra" condition, such as baptism?

Once again, when Peter went and preached to Cornelius, the Holy Spirit fell on him and his household when he wasn't even baptised yet:

[i]While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (Acts 10:44-48)[/i]

This PROVES beyond a doubt that baptism is NOT THE MEANS by which one is filled with the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit when we believe in Christ being justified by faith alone:

[i]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (Galatians 3:1-7)[/i]

We receive the Holy Spirit by the promise of God through faith, not through baptism.

3)If an individual has not been baptized in the name of Jesus only, then he or she is not saved.

If this is true, then EVERY SINGLE BELIEVER IN THE OLD TESTAMENT IS NOT SAVED. This is absurd. This also means that the thief on the cross was not saved, even though Jesus told him he was, because he was never baptised nor did he speak in tongues. It is not different under the New Covenant either, for under both covenants men were justified by faith apart from works (read Romans 4 and Hebrews 11). Is the grace that saves greater under the Old Testament than it is under the New Testament? Why can men be saved by faith ALONE apart from even baptism under the Old and not under the New? What then do you do with the MANY NT scriptures that overwhelmingly speak of being saved by grace through faith alone?

It is my understanding that we are baptized because we have received remission of sins through the blood of Jesus Christ (believing that He is the Christ and that He shed His blood on the cross for our sins).

Your understanding is correct. Do not let the grace of God be perverted by the doctrines of men!

My faith in Jesus Christ has not waned, but looking for a church is proving to be labor intensive

We must remember that the Church is not a building or a denomination, but the people of God who are His saints, His "called out ones" who have been born again by the Spirit and placed by God into the Body of Christ. Looking for a local fellowship can be very disheartening in modern times. There is error and heresy on all sides, as the Apostles of our Lord warned. They prophsied of a great falling away before the man of sin is revealed, and this is what we are seeing. Much of the institutional church is built on the traditions and doctrines of men, not on the Solid Rock of [u]CHRIST ALONE[/u]. Run from these places, run for your life! Beware of the leaven of the pharisees! Seek God, fast and pray in earnest, and He will lead you where He wants you in His perfect will! Don't run ahead of God and get sucked into a false doctrine or counterfeit church, seek His face and He will lead you as the Good Shepherd! His sheep know His voice and another shepherd they will not follow!

These deceivers call themselves Apostolic, but nothing could be further from the truth. There is division from the Body of Christ around the world, the sectarian spirit, faction, and more all because of a false doctrine.

[i]"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, [u]seditions, heresies,[/u] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)[/i]

I reccomend the following link for more information on this subject:

http://www.carm.org/oneness.htm

B
BlazedbyGod Oct 16, 2007

"A person can't be filled with the Holy Ghost as Cornelius and his household were for what fellowship hath light with darkness. John said that whosoever BELIEVETH on him should NOT PERISH but have everlasting life. He didn't say that whosever gets baptized should not perish."

Mark 16:16 He that BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved;..'

He that believeth [b]AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED[/b], he that believeth not shall be damned.

That is plain and simple. And the reason he didn't say he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned-is because unbelieveres don't get baptized-BELIEVERS do!

C
ChrisJD Oct 16, 2007

Hi everyone.


"Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is my understanding that we are baptized because we have received remission of sins through the blood of Jesus Christ (believing that He is the Christ and that He shed His blood on the cross for our sins).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Your understanding is correct. Do not let the grace of God be perverted by the doctrines of men!"

Wanted to add to what was mentioned here this also, from the book of Acts:


"And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." -Acts 15:7-9

[i]And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. [/i]


Grace and peace.

B
BlazedbyGod Oct 16, 2007


It is my understanding that we are baptized because we have received remission of sins through the blood of Jesus Christ (believing that He is the Christ and that He shed His blood on the cross for our sins).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Your understanding is correct. ]


Grace and peace.

That is incorrect. No scripture teaches that once you believe in Jesus you automatically have the Blood of Jesus applied to your life/sins.

Faith alone or by itself, or without works saves [b]NO ONE[/b]. James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [/b]

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well:[b]the devils ALSO BELIEVE[/b], and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O VAIN MAN, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!!!!!!!

James even called the man vain who believes that faith alone can save-He said even the devils believe-does that mean the devils are saved?-NO, under NO circumstance.

We are justified by works-what works, the works in obedience unto God-the very works that the devils that believe lack. Did you not read:

James 2:21 21 Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, AND BY WORKS was faith MADE PERFECT? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The father of faith was justified BY WORKS!! What were his works, offering up Issac as instructed by God in obedience to God. Any person who rejects being baptized is in sin which is disobedience to God-which it was one simple act of disobedience that got Adam and Eve kicked out of the presence of God from the garden.

Yes, we are saved [b]BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH[/b][b] AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES[/b]: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast.

But you must remember, faith without works IS DEAD. And the " not of works lest any man should boast" is referring to man's OWN works, it is not referring to God's Work through the operation of salvation.

Once again, the Bible plainly says we are WATER BAPTIZED [b][size=medium]FOR[/size][/b]THE REMISSION OF SINS.

Acts 2:36 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren,
[b]WHAT SHALL WE DO?[/b]38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and[b] be BAPTIZED EVERYONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS[/b]..."

He plainly said be baptized [b]in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS [/b][b][b]

It is unscriptual to say you are baptized because you already received remission of sins-that is unscriptual.

Jesus Christ left the act of remitting sins to the Apostles ( I will probably be called a heretic for that), but that is what he did:

John 20:23 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, [color=CC0000]Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins YE REMIT, THEY ARE REMITTED UNTO THEM; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.[/color]

He said " whose soever sins YE(YOU) REMIT, THEY ARE REMITTED unto them; AND whose soever sins YE(you) retain, they are retained.

The Apostles remitted sin by water baptizing people in the name of JESUS CHRIST. Again, this is why, Peter one of the 12, says in Acts 2:38

Acts 2:38 "....and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ [b]FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS[/b]

The name of this thread is the "Apostles Doctrine"-this was their teaching, even in the Word of God.

On the same day, on the Day of Pentecost, the Bible says :

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers

C
ChrisJD Oct 16, 2007

Hi BlazedbyGod.


With the household of Cornelius, God Himself bore them witness


"And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;" -Acts 15:8


He bore witness of their hearts.

That they were purified. By faith.


That is, before they were baptized in water.


Chris

B
BlazedbyGod Oct 16, 2007


ChrisJD wrote:
Hi BlazedbyGod.


With the household of Cornelius, God Himself bore them witness

"And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;" -Acts 15:8
He bore witness of their hearts.
That they were purified. By faith.
That is, before they were baptized in water.


Chris

"And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;" -Acts 15:8

Did you not read Acts 10:47 Can ANY MAN forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

These men just received the Holy Ghost and Peter still says not even they can forbid to be water baptized.

sermonindex Oct 16, 2007

Everyone from Abraham, to the thief on the cross to the apostles were saved by faith. Some in my fellowship coming from a Church of Christ background put a very heavy emphasis on water baptism to the point of baptizmal regeneration... however when asked if someone who is converted in their heart out in the dessert with no water around and is killed on their way to find water to be baptized is saved or not they will back down and say yes they are saved... by grace through faith. I worry about anyone who can not understand this, the foundation of salvation, faith, true faith, cleansing faith, saving faith.

As a former thug in our fellowship puts it.. if you go and get beat into a gang, you become a member... but you better go and get your tat afterwards because its commanded as a mark of your membership... the tat doesn't make you a member of the gang, its a mark, more then symbolic, but less then qualifying.

OK, thats not a great analogy, but it's better then the reckless cherry picking and throwing around of scripture that some people use to support their religous arguments.

I think brother Mike said it best when this came up last... just get baptized.

In Christ - Jim

B
BlazedbyGod Oct 16, 2007


ChrisJD wrote:
Hi BlazedbyGod.
With the household of Cornelius, God Himself bore them witness

"And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;" -Acts 15:8
He bore witness of their hearts.

That they were purified. By faith.


That is, before they were baptized in water.


Chris

The Bible also says that Christ was the Lamb that was slain BEFORE the Foundations of the World, but he still had to literally and physically come and die on the Cross.

He was slain before he was slain, but he still had to physically come to earth and be slain.

When it came to the Gentiles, God had to give them the Holy Ghost first by his divine power-this is why as Peter was preaching, the Holy Ghost just fell on them without Peter even laying hands....God had to do it this way to the Gentiles, because if not, there would have been no way that the disciples would have water baptized Gentiles- Peter knew they were granted repentance by the fact that the Holy Ghost fell on them-then he knew, that, as scripture says, " repentance was granted unto them" thus it was now that they could be baptized with water.

Acts 11:18"...Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."


C
ChrisJD Oct 16, 2007

Hi again BlazedbyGod,


"These men just received the Holy Ghost and Peter still says not even they can forbid to be water baptized."

But what does this mean. Did this mean that Peter thought they still must be cleansed from sin by being baptised in water?

He testifies later, in this passage in Acts 15 that

"God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost"

God had testified of their hearts that they were purified by faith(Acts 15:9). And were they not then united to Christ through the Holy Spirit?


And if they were united to Christ, what more cleansing from sin could they have recieved from water baptisim?


It seems to me that Peter is not here expressing his unwillingness to forbid them from some further cleansing through water baptisim. But that he was unwilling to forbid them the obediance to, and open and public declaration of, their faith and unity with Christ, which God had just testified of Himself, by giving them the Holy Spirit.


I call to mind what God had told Peter beforehand:

"And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." -Acts 10:15


[i]What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common[/i]

Please forgive me if I do not continue in this discussion. I'd like to look more towards the confrence.


Chris

B
BlazedbyGod Oct 16, 2007


jimdied2sin wrote:
Everyone from Abraham, to the thief on the cross to the apostles were saved by faith.

I think brother Mike said it best when this came up last... just get baptized.

In Christ - Jim

My brother, nobody in scripture was saved by faith ALONE. Faith without works has always been dead-even in the Old T.

Abraham was justified BY WORKS when he OFFERRED(that's the work) up Issacc upon the altar.

Again, if people are saved by faith alone-then even the devils in James that Believe are saved.

And even these devils of Matt 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
I guess even they are saved as well-because they have confessed and believed?

Please read this slow:

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ...18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils ALSO BELIEVE, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit F9 is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I
InTheLight Oct 16, 2007

Thanks for your excellent contributions to this thread Josef and Chris. Whenever we take up the topic of salvation we need to be reminded that the whole of Scripture makes it very clear that we are saved by grace through faith.

The Scriptures also teach that the initial act of obedience in the early church was a public confession of that faith. That public confession came forth in baptism so that baptism is linked with repentance. "Repent and be baptized" is to say "repent of your sin and make public confession." It may be very much like Romans 10:9-10, "If you believe in heart God raised Him from the dead, and confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' you will be saved."

So, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sin," simply takes the confession and the faith and puts it together. You want to stay away from anything that would strike a blow at salvation by faith which is all through Scripture. We want to see baptism for what it is, the outward confessionn of the inward belief.

In Christ,

Ron

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