All Men Everywhere

It amazes me, that with all the arguments of God's sovereignty, not one person can answer this question:

If God is completely sovereign in salvation, and if His word does not return to Him void, how can He command all men everywhere to repent, and then they do not repent as He commanded them to?

[b][color=FF0000]Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:[/color][/b]

Please do not post unless you can answer the question I asked. I know quite a bit about both sides doctrinally, I have studied TULIP and the opposing side, and I have yet to see anyone who believes in the complete sovereignty of God in salvation that can answer this question. Even James White does not answer it.

I wonder how many surprised calvinists there will be in heaven when they see Esau talking to Jesus.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

It's no different than God commanding all men not to commit adultery, or lie, or to love the Lord with all their heart, mind , soul, and strength.

The natural man cannot do these things,thus he must be born again or regenerated and receive justification by the faith produced in the new heart.

God sovereignly gives spiritual life to whom He will, when He will, and how He will. Even a skimming of Romans 9 makes that abundantly clear, unless one is attaching an agenda to it(i.e. nations and not individuals). The language of Romans 9 does not, and has never meant nations.

Consider the highlighted portion in light of what is surrounding it-
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 [b]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/b]
Rom 9:24 [b]Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

Is Paul speaking to nations and calling them "us", or is he referring to the people he is writing to?

Does Paul say anything there about a Jewish nation? or rather does it not say that the "vessels prepared before unto glory" were "called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles"?

I wonder how many surprised calvinists there will be in heaven when they see Esau talking to Jesus.

Unless you have Scripture to show he'll be there, I don't think he will be. I'll be more surprised to see Finney there :-D

I'll be more surprised to see Finney there

Are you kidding here bro? He'll be there. Although in a way I agree...I might indeed be surprised to see him...because his seat will be so much better then mine. (paraphrasing Wesley...)

Praise God, even my own theology will finally be corrected and perfected in Glory.

Blessings,

MC

Are you kidding here bro?

I wish I was, but any man who makes salvation dependent upon their own works is in danger of missing the point of Christ's perfect substitution for sinners.

It amazes me that a man can deny that Christ actually saved anyone, that the cross was simply to show God's anger towards sin, and that man must earn Heaven by his own deeds, and yet be highly praised by so many.

I at one time bought into this thinking, and understand to a point why it seems so wonderous, because it's ME doing, and I feel I contribute to MY salvation.

But if indeed God requires a perfect righteousness to allow entrance into Heaven(which He does), then it cannot be found in myself or my actions, for in them will be failure, and weakness, and nothing that would be worth God's approval (outside of Christ).

The Scriptures declare that God has placed us in Christ, and He has been made wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption to us(1 Corinthians 1:30), and also that God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Finney's theology has more in common with Judaism than with the teachings of the New Testament. For in his theology, there is really no need for a bleeding Saviour, because man can do it on his own. Man can keep the commandments, man can build a ladder to Heaven.

Brother I know that this is not a popular view to have here, but Scripture is truth, and it does not matter what man says. I have been through, and seen firsthand the horrid effects of this man's theology upon souls, and the consequences produced in the modern church, thus as one who loves the brethren and seeks their spiritual health, I warn, and confront, simply that folks would really evaluate what they are reading, and if it measures up with the Bible.

Blessings brother compton.

roaringlamb wrote:

Consider the highlighted portion in light of what is surrounding it-
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 [b]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/b]
Rom 9:24 [b]Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

Is Paul speaking to nations and calling them "us", or is he referring to the people he is writing to?

Does Paul say anything there about a Jewish nation? or rather does it not say that the "vessels prepared before unto glory" were "called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles"?

Why is it at the Potters House in Jer 18:2-6, which is the coi-text to Romans 9:21-23, the vessle was the nation of Israel?

The Potter did not mare the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.
The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.
Therefore, the Potter had to reform the clay into a new vessel.

Israel was warned to repent and they did not, that is the clay being marred.
God sent them to Babylon because of there repentance, this is the clay being reformed.

So, the answer to "Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, [b]Why hast thou made me thus?"[/b]
"Because you rebeled and did not yield to MY voice."
God never make vessels of dishonor just because HE wants an "ashtray, diaper pail, spittoon, garbage container, or whatnot" or just because HE wants to.
The vessels of dishonor are vessels of dishonor by there own fault.

by BenWilliams on 2007/10/20 2:46:21

It amazes me, that with all the arguments of God's sovereignty, not one person can answer this question:

If God is completely sovereign in salvation, and if His word does not return to Him void, how can He command all men everywhere to repent, and then they do not repent as He commanded them to?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Please do not post unless you can answer the question I asked. I know quite a bit about both sides doctrinally, I have studied TULIP and the opposing side, and I have yet to see anyone who believes in the complete sovereignty of God in salvation that can answer this question. Even James White does not answer it.

I wonder how many surprised calvinists there will be in heaven when they see Esau talking to Jesus.

The underlying concept behind pelagian thinking and it's arminian offshoots is the concept that if God gave man an instruction, man must therefore be able to fulfill it on his own; "If God is just, if God is righteous and God is holy, and God commands of the creature to do something,certainly that creature must have the power within himself, the moral ability within himself, to perform it or God would never require it in the first place.”

To illustrate the fallacy of this thinking, I'd like to use the following analogy:
A man has an important appointment of which his attendance is compulsory. His only means of transport is to take the 9:00am train from his suburb into the metropolitan area. He arrives at the train station at 8:59am to find that the cost of the ticket will be $4.50 for a one-way journey. He looks into his wallet only to find it empty. The train pulls in and knowing nothing else to do, he gets on anyway.
Halfway into the journey, a policeman and a transport officer boards the train to inspect tickets. Eventually they get to the man who decided to board without a ticket. The police officer says that there is a $100 on the spot fine for evading fare. The passenger complains that he has no money to pay for it, to which the police officer says that failure to pay the fine within a specific timeframe will result in legal action by way of court.

Now let's think this scenario through. The fine required that the man paid $100 for transgressing the law. Now, does the policeman and the transport officer first inspect the man's wallet to see if he will actually be able to pay the fine then give the charge accordingly?
No.
The fine and the consequences of failing to pay it is a reflection not of the passengers' financial status, but rather the standard of civil law which those who are under it are required to abide by.

The same is true with God's instructions. They arte not a reflection of man's ability, but rather God's holiness. All men are sinful and thus "fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

So to, when God gives an instruction only to find that man cannot fulfill it on his own, he is more than just to declare his wrath, because he is Holy and cannot let sin go unpunished.

Simple.

What I find hard to understand is how anyone can think that Armenianism (which I assume you are opposing) is, by definition, doing this? Why the insistance on this dichotomy, as if there are only two camps, Calvinists who believe in Grace, anmd Armenians who believe in works)

No sister, I do not care what nick name a person goes by. My issue is with the unbiblical teaching that justification is not by faith, grace and Christ alone.

I grieve to see people toiling under the false assumption that they must be maintaining a clean slate from their own works in order to get to Heaven. Or in simple terms, confusing sanctification and justification.

Arminians(most I have met) have a different view of grace which is more Roman Catholic than Biblical. It seems they view an initial giving of grace to help kick off salvation, but it is utterly dependent upon the individual to maintain his or her salvation by their works, and if they do not, then even though they at one time received grace, they will(according to Arminians) be lost.

Roman Catholics believe pretty close to the same thing. God infuses grace to start the process, but you must cooperate with it in order to be saved. But because God requires perfection for a person to get into Heaven they have at least invented purgatory to give some a false hope of being purified.

Redemption is a many-faceted jewel. Why limit yourself to only one facet of it?

I will limit it in the same way that Paul did. I seek to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified, because that is the only hope I have in this world. If the work of Christ upon the cross did not actually pay for the sins of His people, then we are in deep trouble, because someone needs to pay them before we can get into Heaven. Along with this too is the fact that God must also have a perfect fulfillment of the Law in order to allow a soul into Heaven. Again if this facet of Christ's work is ignored, then we are in trouble, and must seek to keep the Law on our own.

I don't know much about Finney's theology, but do agree with you here. Even though I'm not a Calvinist!

Not at all, because the Bible is where we draw our answers, and it never contradicts itself.

Blessings to you sister

Brother Benjamin from Aus. wrote:

The underlying concept behind pelagian thinking and it's arminian offshoots is the concept that if God gave man an instruction, man must therefore be able to fulfill it on his own; "If God is just, if God is righteous and God is holy, and God commands of the creature to do something,certainly that creature must have the power within himself, the moral ability within himself, to perform it or God would never require it in the first place.”

So when God spoke to Cain...

Gen. 4:6 So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

Did He lie to Cain?

In Christ
Jeff

roaringlamb wrote:

It's no different than God commanding all men not to commit adultery, or lie, or to love the Lord with all their heart, mind , soul, and strength.

The natural man cannot do these things,thus he must be born again or regenerated and receive justification by the faith produced in the new heart.

God sovereignly gives spiritual life to whom He will, when He will, and how He will. Even a skimming of Romans 9 makes that abundantly clear, unless one is attaching an agenda to it(i.e. nations and not individuals). The language of Romans 9 does not, and has never meant nations.

Perhaps I misphrased the question I was asking, let me try again to make the question clearer.

How can a just God command all men everywhere to repent, but not give them the ability to do so?

That has not, is not, nor ever shall be justice. If God is just, then everything He does must be just, not being just simply because he does it, but just because He is justice, therefore He cannot do anything apart from His own nature.

I want to ask another question as well, when did the pattern of Israel, and God's dealings with them change, so that we as gentiles would not experience the same God that dealt with them?

Throughout Old Testament scripture, God makes it abundantly clear that the ball is in the court of man, and that he is not only capable of controlling his own destiny, but he is responsible for it.

Lastly, the real question that all of this comes down to is this:

If we study the nature and character of God throughout the whole of the scriptures, will we find a God that is arbitrary, or a God that does everything with a reason?

The answer is simple, and I don't think there is any argument against it, God is not arbitrary at all, and never does anything without a reason. The calvinist God is an arbitrary God, who chooses individuals randomly at will.

How can a just God command all men everywhere to repent, but not give them the ability to do so?

God's justice is not in the slightest harmed by man's inability to do what He commands. Again consider the Law, and tell me who has ever kept that except for Christ.

Man must answer to God, not God to man.

Our original parents(Adam and Eve) were fully capable of keeping the covenant of works that they were given, or of breaking it and sinning against God. We know that they sinned, and thus brought forth children in their likeness(sinful, dead in sin etc.).

After the covenant of works was broken by Adam and Eve, God put forth a new covenant and a promise of a seed that would deliver His people, then He covered Adam and Eve in skins from a sacrificed animal, and people from that point to now are justified by believing in that Messiah that was foretold then.

The law was never meant as a means for man to gain Heaven. It instead shows man how incapable he is to do anything to gain God's favour apart from Christ. Until you stop looking at the Law as a way of salvation, I am afraid that you will continue to see God as unjust to command what man cannot do.

The other danger one must avoid as well is thinking that men are innocent, and somehow God owes them "a chance". If we truly believed that "all have sinned" then we must understand that God owes no man anything outside of damnation.

Throughout Old Testament scripture, God makes it abundantly clear that the ball is in the court of man, and that he is not only capable of controlling his own destiny, but he is responsible for it.

Yes, but the OT is God dealing with His people, not the world. So, you are correct in that God does take the responsibility of caring for His people. However the Amalekites, Hittites, etc do not have the same promises or care given to them.

If anything this should bring joy to our hearts as we God working with a sinful group of people, loving them when unlovable, and offering a way for them to come to Him.

The answer is simple, and I don't think there is any argument against it, God is not arbitrary at all, and never does anything without a reason. The calvinist God is an arbitrary God, who chooses individuals randomly at will.

Not at all, for even Scripture says that God chooses individuals-
Ephesians 1:4 According [b]as he hath chosen us[/b] in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, [b]being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:[/b]

God's election of people has nothing to do with them, or upon God's favoritism. God is God, and as Romans 9 says, He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. We are created by Him, thus we bow to His ways, not He to ours.

All things that happen are for His glory, and to work out His will. If one does not understand the mercy and love that is behind this, it can be very confusing and painful. Nevertheless, God is God.

Consider all Joseph went through, and the pain his father endured. Yet God was working His will so that His word would be fulfilled. Consider the agony Christ endured. Yet it pleased the Father to crush Him, to make Him the firstborn of many sons.

roaringlamb, have you ever considered that from Adam and Eve, all the way to Abraham, and then far past Abraham all the way to Christ, the scripture shows generation by generation how God has commanded each generation to walk in righteousness, and when they did, He rewarded them, and when they didn't He judged them. These were fallen people!

Have you ever found it interesting that God offered cain repentance, and cain did not take it. Yet God still showed him mercy? Cain was not granted heaven, but God dealt mercifully with him.

Have you ever wondered why the scripture teaches that hell was created for the devil and his angels, and not for mankind? And only after man sinned, did God judge that they should go to hell.

I just don't see how you can call what you believe justice. You say to me "but God does not answer to men" and I believe that truly, but is justice not justice? Is repentance not repentance?

Have you ever seen the evidence in real human beings of a man who is incapable of repenting? You cannot say you have, because you cannot know. It is only for God to know you say.

If God is good, then everything He does must be good, or He is no longer good.

If God is righteous, then everything He does must be righteous or He is no longer righteous.

If God is just, then everything He does must be just, or He is no longer just.

roaringlamb wrote:

God's justice is not in the slightest harmed by man's inability to do what He commands. Again consider the Law, and tell me who has ever kept that except for Christ.

Paul was blameless, according to the scripture.

John the Baptists mother and father were blameless according to the scripture.

The law could be kept, but not fulfilled. Only Christ could fulfill the law, because he kept it in spirit, as well as in action.
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roaringlamb, the scripture does not say that after adam and eve sinned, man became incapable of choosing God. It does not say that anywhere.

Romans one is not directed at that specifically, and romans 1 does not say that all men are incapable of choosing God.

The law was never meant as a means for man to gain Heaven. It instead shows man how incapable he is to do anything to gain God's favour apart from Christ. Until you stop looking at the Law as a way of salvation, I am afraid that you will continue to see God as unjust to command what man cannot do.

I do not see the law as a means for salvation, the scripture very clearly teaches that faith is the only way a man can be justified.

But if God has not given the ability to all men to be saved, then He is unjust in commanding them to repent.

He has commanded "all men" to "repent", this goes further than what Romans 1 talks about when it says that God has revealed himself to all men, and given them a conscience, and all that it says, this goes way beyond that, whereas before, God was commanding the Israelites to repent, now He commands all men to repent.

If I walk into a room, and say to a group of one hundred people, all of you kneel before me, or you will be beheaded, but I have made some of those hundred people without joints in their knees. Am I just?

No, the answer is emphatically no, I have commanded my creation to do something that I have created it so it cannot do, and then I judge the creature for not complying with my command.

Do you see the logical falacies that this is full of?

That is like God handing out glasses of water to a hundred people and saying, everyone drink the water or you will die, but He has taken the mouths of some of them away, so that they cannot drink.

My friend, you are not honest with yourself if you say that that is justice.

Are you aware that Psalms says that God has shown love to "every" man?

Do you call love, creating a creature simply to damn it to hell?

Have you ever found it interesting that God offered cain repentance, and cain did not take it. Yet God still showed him mercy? Cain was not granted heaven, but God dealt mercifully with him.

Yes God treated him with mercy as He does all men. He makes it rain upon the just and the unjust alike. The point of what God is telling Cain has to do with Cain's rejection of God's means of acceptance.

Cain wanted God to bend to his sacrifice, and his way approach to God. This has nothing to do with "free-will" and to make this passage mean this misses the point. Abel was accepted because his sacrifice was according to God's ways, Cain wanted to created his own worship of God and was rejected.

Have you ever wondered why the scripture teaches that hell was created for the devil and his angels, and not for mankind? And only after man sinned, did God judge that they should go to hell.

Here is the verse you are speaking of-
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Could you show me where it says hell was not created for men? Could you be reading into this passage something that is not there?

How do you know that God decided hell was for man only after he sinned? Consider that those who are saved, were chosen in Christ before the foundations of the world.

If God is good, then everything He does must be good, or He is no longer good.

But you are basing your view of good upon man deserving something from God, and if God does not give it to man, then He is not good.

God remains good no matter what we think or feel about him. He would remain good even if He never gave us a way of salvation, simply because His character is goodness, and holiness.

Paul was blameless, according to the scripture.

Well again, you are reading into Scripture your own ideas. Here is what Paul says-
Philippians 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; [b]touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.[/b]

Then he goes on to say-
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, [b]not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:[/b]

John the Baptists mother and father were blameless according to the scripture.

Yes according to the outward means, but not the inward righteousness. Even David wrote of how he was blameless in keeping the law, and being upright. That is why Jesus made it a point to bring up the law and its true intent in His Sermon on the Mount. All hope in human effort was to be done away with, so that men would accept God's means for salvation.

roaringlamb, the scripture does not say that after adam and eve sinned, man became incapable of choosing God. It does not say that anywhere.

Well how about these words from Christ-
John 6:44 [b]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:[/b] and I will raise him up at the last day.

No one will come unless God works to bring them. They will try to erect their own way of worship, and expect God to accept it just like Cain did.

Romans one is not directed at that specifically, and romans 1 does not say that all men are incapable of choosing God.

Brother Romans 1 clearly shows that revelation from nature only serves as a means of greater condemnation. That is the point that Paul is making, and it parallels what the Apostle John had written here-
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

The natural heart will do anything to remove God, thus we have science to explain away God, or we have deification of nature rather than worship of the Creator.

If I walk into a room, and say to a group of one hundred people, all of you kneel before me, or you will be beheaded, but I have made some of those hundred people without joints in their knees. Am I just?

Your illustration is flawed as it does not follow the Biblical account of what we are talking about. What if there were two people who could bend their legs, and move their joints, and you told them to kneel or die. Yet they chose not to, and died.

That is more like the truth, Adam and Eve could have obeyed, but they did not and death has reigned ever since.

It is your misunderstanding of original sin that causes your confusion, and I cannot make you believe it, God will reveal it to you.

That is like God handing out glasses of water to a hundred people and saying, everyone drink the water or you will die, but He has taken the mouths of some of them away, so that they cannot drink.

Again, a flawed illustration. For God did not remove the mouths, but man by their sin has. Men are not born good, and then corrupted, they are born wicked, and must be made holy by God's grace. To be realistic with your illustration, you need to have the people not even wanting water, or seeking some other form of refreshment other than what God had commanded.

Are you aware that Psalms says that God has shown love to "every" man?

So does this mean that all will be saved then? His love is displayed in that He allows even the unsaved to partake in His creation, He gives oxygen to them etc. This is His great mercy for all men, not immediately giving them the justice they deserve.

You act as if men are running around worried about their offence to God. Sadly this is not the case, but those who are worried are being bothered by God Himself, and are being drawn to Christ.

Men are not neutral towards God and able to decide one way or the other. Rather they are "haters of God", "children of wrath".

roaringlamb wrote:

Yes God treated him with mercy as He does all men. He makes it rain upon the just and the unjust alike. The point of what God is telling Cain has to do with Cain's rejection of God's means of acceptance.

Cain wanted God to bend to his sacrifice, and his way approach to God. This has nothing to do with "free-will" and to make this passage mean this misses the point. Abel was accepted because his sacrifice was according to God's ways, Cain wanted to created his own worship of God and was rejected.

I am not talking about the sacrifices they offered, I am talking about verse seven when God says to a "fallen individual",

[b][color=FF0033]Genisis 4:7

7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.[/color][/b]

God says to him, "If you do well you will be accepted"

God also says to him, "You will rule over the desire of sin"

Now I want you to explain why God would come to cain and say these things if they were not true?

Had God been the God of calvin, God would have said to cain, "Cain, know ye not that you are chosen of God?"

But that is not what God says, he tells cain something that is true for "all men".

God says to him, "If you do well you will be accepted"

Now, either God is a liar, which we know he is not, or the story in scripture is untrue.

Now, either one of two things is true here, cain is a justified man before God, or cain is a fallen man before God.

If cain was already justified, then explain what happens to him after he kills able.

If cain is still a fallen man, then explain why God would tell him something that is not true. (He can be saved)

So either cain was one of God's chosen, or he was not.

If cain was chosen of God, explain what happens after he kills able.

If he is not one of God's chosen, then explain to me how God is not lying by telling cain he will be accepted if he does well.
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Could you show me where it says hell was not created for men? Could you be reading into this passage something that is not there?

How do you know that God decided hell was for man only after he sinned? Consider that those who are saved, were chosen in Christ before the foundations of the world.

First of all, I'm not readin into that passage at all.

It says, "prepared for the devil and his angels".
No other passage in scripture states what hell was prepared for other than that, they only state what it will be used for.

Secondly, that is not what I meant by that. Yes God has perfect foreknowledge, so things were done before, or were they? No, they were done at the time they were done, and when it speaks of them having been done beforehand, it is speaking of the plans of God being set in place beforehand.

I don't know the exact time that God decided hell was for mankind who did not repent, but he did not reveal that to man until after man had sinned.
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But you are basing your view of good upon man deserving something from God, and if God does not give it to man, then He is not good.

God remains good no matter what we think or feel about him. He would remain good even if He never gave us a way of salvation, simply because His character is goodness, and holiness.

First, man deserves nothing from God, in fact he deserves less than nothing, he deserves eternal damnation, because he is desperately wicked.

In this point you err in understanding me.

Your statement "God is good no matter what we think or feel about Him" while true, is used to make a flawed, and illogical point. God is not good because "everything He does becomes good because He does it", God is good, because everything he does is good, and because his goodness stems from a nature that is good.

I am not saying that God's goodness is justified by man's opinion of him, what I am saying is that anyone can claim to be good, but if the facts don't line up with the words, then something is wrong.

God cannot be good, and lie.

God cannot be good and steal.

God cannot be good and judge the innocent as guilty.

We know these things because He has told them to us, and then we see the truth of it. God has never lied to us, God has never stolen from us, and God has never judged an innocent man as guilty.

To clarify that point, so that we don't get distracted here, man is not innocent, man is guilty, he is condemned already in the eyes of God.
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To the next point, I'm not trying to ignore what you said, but everything you said concerning Paul, and John the baptist's parents, is basically pointless.

Paul, says that there was righteousness in the law, and that he was blameless according to that righteousness.

And the account of JB's parents is that they were blameless.

I'm not arguing that the righteousness in the law was man's righteousness, Paul states that clearly, but that does not negate the fact that they were righteous men. they were approved by God, until the lamb was slain, and at that point, the knowledge that they needed the righteousness of Christ came.

Paul says, "I was righteous!" and he says, "it was gain to me to be righteous".
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Well how about these words from Christ-
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No one will come unless God works to bring them. They will try to erect their own way of worship, and expect God to accept it just like Cain did.

I whole heartedly agree with that verse...

Where does it say that a man must come if he is drawn?
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Your illustration is flawed as it does not follow the Biblical account of what we are talking about. What if there were two people who could bend their legs, and move their joints, and you told them to kneel or die. Yet they chose not to, and died.

You still fail to see that in what you believe God is denying the person he commands the ability to carry out what he tells them to.

my examples are perfect in describing what you believe.

Here you have a God, who says to all men, "repent".

But then chooses certain individuals and says, "I will give you the ability to do what I have said".

And to the others He says, "I will not give you the ability to do what I have said".

That is like saying speak, but I will take your tongue. Breathe, but you cannot have lungs. Walk, but I'll leave your feet and ankles broken. Think, but without a brain.

It is absolutely unjust in every way.

You have two slaves chained to a wall, and you say, I command you tounlock your chains and you will be free, but to one you give a key and to the other you give nothing.

Oh no, this is not a God of justice. It is a deceiving God. No court, No judge would ever accept that as justice, because God has placed his understanding of justice in our hearts. While many are deceived from understanding justice, not all are.
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So does this mean that all will be saved then? His love is displayed in that He allows even the unsaved to partake in His creation, He gives oxygen to them etc. This is His great mercy for all men, not immediately giving them the justice they deserve.

You act as if men are running around worried about their offence to God. Sadly this is not the case, but those who are worried are being bothered by God Himself, and are being drawn to Christ.

Men are not neutral towards God and able to decide one way or the other. Rather they are "haters of God", "children of wrath".

In answer to this question, you know that the only kind of love that the scripture shows God giving is agapeo, or agape love?

This is love, that I create you, that I kill you, and then that I torment your soul for all eternity.

No, not all men will be saved, but only those who reject Christ out of their own will will be damned.

If a man is not capable of making the choice on his own, that is because he is controlled by a demon, in which case, in every instance in the scripture, Christ held the demon accountable, cast it out, and set the man free.

And as we know from what Paul teaches, if the man from that point, of being free from the influence of demons does not walk in the truth, then the demons will return seven times greater.

So we see again how God gives the men who cannot choose, a choice. He frees their minds, and then allows them to choose.
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roaringlamb wrote:

How can a just God command all men everywhere to repent, but not give them the ability to do so?

God's justice is not in the slightest harmed by man's inability to do what He commands. Again consider the Law, and tell me who has ever kept that except for Christ.

roaringlamb wrote:
Our original parents(Adam and Eve) were fully capable of keeping the covenant of works that they were given, or of breaking it and sinning against God. We know that they sinned, and thus brought forth children in their likeness(sinful, dead in sin etc.).

roaringlamb wrote:
The other danger one must avoid as well is thinking that men are innocent, and somehow God owes them "a chance". If we truly believed that "all have sinned" then we must understand that God owes no man anything outside of damnation.

But then chooses certain individuals and says, "I will give you the ability to do what I have said".

And to the others He says, "I will not give you the ability to do what I have said"

Brother, God would never keep a man out of Heaven if he wanted to be there.

You again are operating under the unscriptural assumption that all men want to go to Heaven, but then a mean Calvinist Christ says, "sorry, you cannot come in!"

Men do not desire to be saved unless God gives them the desire, and God will never give that desire to frustrate or destroy a person.

You again are using emotional arguments that seem unfair when looked at through man's goodness,but strip away that goodness, and you will see rightly.

I do not wish to go round and round on this, because if you do not believe in original sin and its implications, we will continue to arrive at differing conclusions.

After years of looking at this debate, reading over and over the same aguments, I have come to a few conclusions. First, I will admit we do not know everything there is to know about election. Not everything, but enough to know that 5 point calvinism IS NOT the answer. As others have rightly already pointed out many scriptures, I will not repeat them.
It would be fuitless to begin again with all the scriptures that any clear thinking individual has not either considered if they truely looked at this false doctrine. It is so rediculas it defies God given logic and reason, not to mention more importantly scripture as a whole. I can only equate it to a strong delusion, 2 Thes 1:11. Now I know the context here is not about calvinism, but "strong delusion" could be one reason. Another referance to be looked at could be 2 Cor.4:3-4 "whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them who believe not". Again, I am not saying calvinists (hyper-5 point) are lost, I am just refering to the state of blindness by accepting a lie and refusing the truth.(I only use this for referance, not context, I know the context) And again, 1 Cor.1:19 - "For there MUST be heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you".
My point is this - how could someone be shown the same scriptures over and over, and still stand on a doctrine of a man, (a murderer and one who showed little if any fruit of a true Christian, with the doctrine itself named after him)? There must be a supernatuiural element in this, and I do not think it is the true God either.
If God is the God of hyper 5 point calvinism, then he can not be the same God most Christians love and serve - they are two different Gods by definission. And, if the 5 point god is true, think about it, how could enyone realy love a god like that, I said IF he is the 5 point God? A normal, rational, biblicaly thinking person could not. It defies reason and ability within to do so, unless there is some other contributing factor. I do not say any of this to offend or be un loving. I guess I read these things over and over, and I just don't get it. I don't understand something else, if a person realy believes this, what is the motive to always push it? The only thing it teaches is God does not love everyone, He does not realy want everyone to repent and believe the Gospel and be saved, He offers false hope and salvation to all who would come in repentance, but he realy does not mean it, he does not want a child to come in child like faith, because only a highly educated theologin could come up with this faulty theory, and, well, why bother going on, I could make a list a mile long, and brighter minds have already refuted this better than I ever could. Calvinism, tell me, what does it do for anyone, but cause debate, confusion, uncertainty about God and who He is? It is not truth, it does not follow biblical themes, Gods nature as a WHOLE, or the need of man as a WHOLE. A universal problem (sin) requires a universal cure (Salvation). If salvation is not availible to all, then satan and sin are greater than god and evil triumps over good. Potential salvation must of necessity be availible, and mans choice must be the deciding factor to accept or reject Gods offer. He will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy - a favorite quote. But did you ever look up every instance where this was stated, and see that that mercy always was reated to those who submitted and obeyed the Lord, that the condition of mercy was never a decree or arbitrary, but conditioned on what man or nation did with the commands of God? But typing here is in vain, my button has been pushed!
I pray we all come to the full knowledge of the truth, and I pray my calvinist freinds re think there faulty positon and heretical leader, Mr calvin.
God Bless, Bob

I don't believe in Calvin, but I do believe what scripture says and God and His Christ.

God has chosen all things for His pleasure. You cannot say God did not choose Able over Cain. You cannot say God did not choose to hate Esau and love Jacob. There for you cannot say that God has not chosen before the foundation of the world that those chosen before the foundation of the World to be in Christ Jesus was not His plan before the foundation of the world. God does not choose anyone not to be in Christ. It is all mans choice to not be in Christ. None would choose Him, none is righteous, we even have to be made righteous in Christ and no other especially self.

No plainer than this: Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

God chose Abraham, God chose David, God chose Judah, God chose Jacob, none of them chose God.
God chose Israel, and God choose those who will be in Christ. Yet it is not in God that any should be lost but we know there are, and God is righteous even in those that are Not God's choice but man's. Without God choosing none would be saved.

The words chosen God occur in 23 verses.

Deu 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.

Deu 12:21 If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after.

Deu 14:2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth.

Deu 16:11 And thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that [is] within thy gates, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that [are] among you, in the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to place his name there.

Deu 18:5 For the LORD thy God hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of the LORD, him and his sons for ever.

Deu 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be [tried]:

1Sa 10:24 And Samuel said to all the people, See ye him whom the LORD hath chosen, that [there is] none like him among all the people? And all the people shouted, and said, God save the king.

1Ch 15:2 Then David said, None ought to carry the ark of God but the Levites: for them hath the LORD chosen to carry the ark of God, and to minister unto him for ever.

1Ch 28:4 Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah [to be] the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make [me] king over all Israel:

1Ch 29:1 Furthermore David the king said unto all the congregation, Solomon my son, whom alone God hath chosen, [is yet] young and tender, and the work [is] great: for the palace [is] not for man, but for the LORD God.

2Ch 33:7 And he set a carved image, the idol which he had made, in the house of God, of which God had said to David and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen before all the tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever:

Psa 33:12 Blessed [is] the nation whose God [is] the LORD; [and] the people [whom] he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

Psa 78:31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen [men] of Israel.

Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Luk 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided [him], saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Cr 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,

You would say if I am not chosen why did He make me this way and tell me to repent if I could not do it.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Man will have no argument before God, even those who will be in the great white throne judgment of God. All man kind will be judged perfectly.

With out Christ all will be judged by their works and works has no life and is the Killer of the self-righteous sending them to Hell cast into the lake of fire with Satan.

If we are not in Christ we are dead to God. That is the New Testament Truth. The Old Testament Saints must be separated form the New and leave them to God. That is His decision and Judgement, not ours. That is why no one will ever reconcile those in the old with those in the new by commingling the Old Testament with the New Testament. You cannot commingle Law and the mercy of God with Grace and Jesus Christ our Savior.

Christ liveth in me: Phillip

God has chosen all things for His pleasure. You cannot say God did not choose Able over Cain. You cannot say God did not choose to hate Esau and love Jacob. There for you cannot say that God has not chosen before the foundation of the world that those chosen before the foundation of the World to be in Christ Jesus was not His plan before the foundation of the world. God does not choose anyone not to be in Christ. It is all mans choice to not be in Christ. None would choose Him, none is righteous, we even have to be made righteous in Christ and no other especially self.

So brother Phillip, based on what you said, Abel was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Abel was righteous. Do you believe what you said?

In Christ
Jeff