DHL
Oct 28, 2007
Did Israel, during Moses time, receive the Holy Spirit?
Did Israel, during Moses time, receive the Holy Spirit?
DHL wrote:
Did Israel, during Moses time, receive the Holy Spirit?
DHL,
Hope this link helps with your question.
Thank you brother,
That was a very informative Link. God bless.
There is one verse from the link that stuck to my mind.
Isaiah 63:10-11 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them. 11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying: "Where is He who brought them up out of the sea With the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them.
When Isaiah said: But they rebelled.
I ask you, what was this rebellion about?
and are we today, at the risk of doing the very same thing?
God put His Holy Spirit in them, and yet they grieved it. and God fought against them.
this is a very scarry thought to me, having God fighting against me.
Hi DHL,
You are very welcome.
I ask you, what was this rebellion about?
Unbelief,
and are we today, at the risk of doing the very same thing?
Yes, if we look at anything other than the Word, and take our eyes off our example to follow, Jesus Christ.
this is a very scarry thought to me, having God fighting against me.
Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Trust and obey, for there is know other way to be happy in Jesus, but to Trust and Obey.
In His Love
pastorfrin
Greetings DHL and pastorfrin,
I was slightly surprised at the way Isaiah 63:11 has been translated with the implication that each Israelite had received the Holy Spirit as we can now since Pentecost.
Therefore, I looked in Youngs, for a more stilted but accurate form of words, and sure enough, it does read differently:
11 And He remembereth the days of old,
Moses--his people.
Where [i]is
The shepherd of his flock?
Where [i]is
We see here, that the Holy Spirit was in the midst of the flock.
I don't believe that a born again believer need fear God's opposition, while exercising faith and obedience towards Him. God didn't ever give Israel a hard time without a reason, and, He was always slow to respond in an antagonistic way - but justified by His faith and righteousness.
Stephen said this of the many generations preceding Pentecost...
Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
What does it mean for the individual to resist the Holy Spirit?
Why were their hearts not circumcised?
James speaks of the same...
James 3:
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?
James 4:6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:
\t“God resists the proud,
\tBut gives grace to the humble.”
Here we see that James indicates that in the OT Scriptures, teach that the Spirit in us yearns jealously against our fleshly desires.
Likewise Peter declares of the OT prophets..
1Pet. 1:10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
Then we have this in Proverbs...
Proverbs 1:
20 \tWisdom calls aloud outside;
\tShe raises her voice in the open squares.
21 \tShe cries out in the chief concourses,
\tAt the openings of the gates in the city
\tShe speaks her words:
22 \t“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
\tFor scorners delight in their scorning,
\tAnd fools hate knowledge.
23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.
In verse 23 God promises to pour out His Spirit on them who repent. The outcome of this grace by God is to "make" His "words known to you."
This is the same outcome that was experienced when the Spirit of God was "poured out" on them. They proceeded to speak the words of God.
There are many examples of the mystery of God working in the OT saint to preserve them by grace. Just look at last weeks Revival Conference...all the preachers posted thus far taught NT life out of the OT Scriptures....
God Bless
Your brother in Christ
Jeff
Hi Linn, and everyone.
dorcas wrote:Greetings DHL and pastorfrin,
I was slightly surprised at the way Isaiah 63:11 has been translated with the implication that each Israelite had received the Holy Spirit as we can now since Pentecost.
Therefore, I looked in Youngs, for a more stilted but accurate form of words, and sure enough, it does read differently:
11 And He remembereth the days of old,
Moses--his people.
Where[i]is[/i] He who is bringing them up from the sea,
The shepherd of his flock?
Where[i]is[/i] He who is putting in its midst His Holy Spirit?We see here, that the Holy Spirit was in the midst of the flock.
I don't believe that a born again believer need fear God's opposition, while exercising faith and obedience towards Him. God didn't ever give Israel a hard time without a reason, and, He was always slow to respond in an antagonistic way - but justified by His faith and righteousness.
Indeed, we should not be in fear of God coming against us, if we are His, and truly seeking to walk with and obey Him.
Maybe the main point in seeking to answer this question is that God works from the standpoint of [u][i]who He is
Human nature as a whole doesn't change either. God's people, OT or NT, are still rebellious and stiffnecked, in spite of a fuller measure of the Spirit these days to those who truly believe!
Yes, KJV "within them" obviously has to mean "among them", as it's speaking of the nation, not all of whom (or very few of whom) were willing to trust and obey God - to this day.
But I can't help but see strong parallels between the rebellion and idolatry of Israel then, and the rebellion and idolatry of the Church in general now.
And, as it was then, so it is now, that there are comparatively few who remain faithful.
And we have less excuse than they had in OT times, because of the fuller "availability" of the Spirit to us, since Jesus died and rose and poured Him out upon the Church. As, for example, in Jeremiah's looking forward to the New Covenant:
Jeremiah 31:
[color=990000] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.[/color]
The difference I believe is more in the [i]scale
Blessings
Jeannette
Some great thoughts here, Jeff. And a very searchging question.
rookie wrote:
Stephen said this of the many generations preceding Pentecost...Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
What does it mean for the individual to resist the Holy Spirit?
Why were their hearts not circumcised?
James speaks of the same...
James 3:
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?
James 4:6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:
\t“God resists the proud,
\tBut gives grace to the humble.”Here we see that James indicates that in the OT Scriptures, teach that the Spirit in us yearns jealously against our fleshly desires.
Likewise Peter declares of the OT prophets..
1Pet. 1:10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
Then we have this in Proverbs...
Proverbs 1:
20 \tWisdom calls aloud outside;
\tShe raises her voice in the open squares.
21 \tShe cries out in the chief concourses,
\tAt the openings of the gates in the city
\tShe speaks her words:
22 \t“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
\tFor scorners delight in their scorning,
\tAnd fools hate knowledge.
23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.In verse 23 God promises to pour out His Spirit on them who repent. The outcome of this grace by God is to "make" His "words known to you."
This is the same outcome that was experienced when the Spirit of God was "poured out" on them. They proceeded to speak the words of God.
There are many examples of the mystery of God working in the OT saint to preserve them by grace. Just look at last weeks Revival Conference...all the preachers posted thus far taught NT life out of the OT Scriptures....
God Bless
Your brother in Christ
Jeff
Mmmm, very challenging!What does it mean for the individual to resist the Holy Spirit?Why were their hearts not circumcised?
I think we all have times when we resist the Holy Spirit, even though it isn't out and out rebellion if we are truly His. I've certainly been guilty of wriggling like crazy when the Spirit is wanting to challenge something in my life that I'm not willing to let go of!
Blessings
Jeannette
Jeff said
Well of course. But it wasn't 'life' as we know it... was it?all the preachers posted thus far taught NT life out of the OT Scriptures....
Luke 24
25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning [u]Himself
Well of course. But it wasn't 'life' as we know it... was it?
dorcas wrote:Jeff said
all the preachers posted thus far taught NT life out of the OT Scriptures....
Luke 24
25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning [u]Himself[u][i]their own[u][i]explained what was already there
The OT prophets obviously [u][i]did[i]knew
[i][color=330099]"But it wasn't 'life' as we know it... was it?"[/color]
And because He isn't here bodily it has to be by the Spirit!
Blessings
Jeannette
Well of course. But it wasn't 'life' as we know it... was it?
dorcas wrote:Jeff said
all the preachers posted thus far taught NT life out of the OT Scriptures....
Luke 24
25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning [u]Himself
Hi dorcas,
Good question,
Was not their obidience, which could only come about by the Spirit, counted unto them for righteousness? Is not our obedience to the wooing of the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Word, which leads us to 'poor in spirit'
accepting Jesus Christ; both given life by the same Spirit.
In other words, it is the same Spirit that gave both, Life. Is it the same Life?
In His Love
pastorfrin
Sorry it's late here and if I don't reply briefly, I may not get back for days.
My point about 'NT life' is that that was only possible through the death of Jesus Christ (and His resurrection)... making Pentecost possible.
If we imply that the Son was in the prophets in the same way as He is in us, what was the point of His coming? Why the Incarnation at all?
I can see that it was the same Spirit bearing down on the prophets as we have received, but, it cannot be that the same effect obtained in them, as the Son had not yet made that new and living way. This is what I'm getting at, while at the same time I acknowledge both they and we are saved by faith. Nevertheless, they never became sons, but we do, if we will receive Him.
I think it is difficult to understand the Holy Spirit with the human mind.
In the ot the saints operated in more of a defined existance or walk. They had the law the priesthood and atonement. It was almost like communism. The government took care of them.
There was not a whole lot to understand.
They saw things 'one dimensional.'
This is why you see Jesus saying "you have heard it said"......."but i say unto you......"
Now we have the Kingdom of God at hand, which is deeper than the law.
Jesus showed us we break the law with our mind.
Holiness is inward and outward.[2 dimensional]
The trinity [including the Holy Spirit] is not one dimensional.
So we will never be able to understand the Holy Spirit on a one dimensional level.
ex; How can Christ be in us and seated at the right hand of the father.[at the same time]
You may disagree with me but when i read heb.11;39-40,I see the entire purposes of God placed squarely in the lap of the last days saints,...us,you and me....."That they without us should not be made perfect"
This is mind boggling!!!!
Holy Spirit come. Habitate in us. Indwell us. Empower us. Help us to surrender all and take our place in the army of God. Having no thought for ourselves, but singleminded FOR YOUR PURPOSES.
AMEN
psalm1 said
It certainly is! But RobertW has done a great job of explaining His work in believers, in his post on p8 of Pelagius and Pelagianism in this forum.I think it is difficult to understand the Holy Spirit with the human mind.
This reminds me of something appolus found to share, on the temple (of the Holy Spirit)......"That they without us should not be made perfect"
This is mind boggling!!!!
[i]Slowly, all through the universe, that temple of God is
being built. Wherever, in any world, a soul, by free-willed
obedience, catches the fire of God's likeness, it is set into
the growing walls, a living stone. When, in your hard fight,
in your tiresome drudgery, or in your terrible temptation, you
catch the purpose of your being and give yourself to God, and
so give Him the chance to give Himself to you, your life -- a
living stone -- is taken up and set into that growing wall.
Wherever souls are being tried and ripened, in whatever
commonplace and homely ways, there God is hewing out the
pillars for His temple. Oh, if the stone can only have some
vision of the temple of which it is to be a part forever, what
patience must fill it as it feels the blows of the hammer, and
knows that success for it is simply to let itself be wrought
into what shape the Master wills.
... Phillips Brooks (1835-1893), The Law of Growth [1902]
Recently, crsschk posted access to a short book: The Holy Spirit in Romans.
If we agree, it is all edification. Only when man [i]knowingly[u]send
Jesus had to come, in order to effect salvation. And for us He came at a particular point of history.
dorcas wrote:Sorry it's late here and if I don't reply briefly, I may not get back for days.
My point about 'NT life' is that that was only possible through the death of Jesus Christ (and His resurrection)... making Pentecost possible.
If we imply that the Son was in the prophets in the same way as He is in us, what was the point of His coming? Why the Incarnation at all?
I can see that it was the same Spirit bearing down on the prophets as we have received, but, it cannot be that the same effect obtained in them, as the Son had not yet made that new and living way. This is what I'm getting at, while at the same time I acknowledge both they and we are saved by faith. Nevertheless, they never became sons, but we do, if we will receive Him.
But in eternity His salvation is effective both forwards and backwards from that point when Satan was defeated and Jesus died for our sins.
From the human viewpoint Salvation hadn't yet come in OT times, but from the eternal viewpoint He is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".
Both viewpoints are valid, but if eternity is in our hearts that is the best perspective of all.
The life is the same, because the Saviour and His salvation is the same - yesterday, today and for ever.
The only significant differences are that the OT prophets were looking forwards and we are looking back; and that the outpouring and fullness of the Spirit at Pentecost wasn't "rationed", as in OT times, to a special few. To Jesus the Spirit is given "without measure", which wasn't true then.
But, as Pastorfrin says, it is the [i][u]same
It has to be, otherwise there would have to be two Holy Spirits, one for them and one for us!
Blessings
Jeannette
Not wishing to sound too indignant... but has anything I've said, (or linked to), given any impression I believe in two Holy Spirits?
Just for the record, I do believe in the 'seven spirits of God' of Revelation, but I take your point. :-)
Personally, I don't think it's as simple as one looking back and one looking forward, because God gave us time. He could have avoided that altogether, and made us aware only of eternity, despite needing a Saviour-or-we-die, some other way conveying to us the consequence of rejecting the Son.
As I write, I see that even this - the difference between time and eternity - is a picture of the finite compared with the infinite, that we should be under no illusion about what Adam lost for himself and his wife and children, and what it feels like to get eternity back.
Not at all, and I had no intention of giving offence. However, that would be the only logical way that the
dorcas wrote:Not wishing to sound too indignant... but has anything I've said, (or linked to), given any impression I believe in two Holy Spirits?
Amen! And of course that "sevenfold" concept of the Spirit's nature is already in the OT.Just for the record, I do believe in the 'seven spirits of God' of Revelation, but I take your point. :-)
As I said, most Jewish people, than and now, don't understand their own scriptures.
As Jesus said to Nicodemus,
[color=990000]8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, [i][u]Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[/color]
That was Jesus' point, Nicodemus, as an expert in the Scriptures, ought to have understood.
Mmmm, some interesting thoughts here.Personally, I don't think it's as simple as one looking back and one looking forward, because God gave us time. He could have avoided that altogether, and made us aware only of eternity, despite needing a Saviour-or-we-die, some other way conveying to us the consequence of rejecting the Son.As I write, I see that even this - the difference between time and eternity - is a picture of the finite compared with the infinite, that we should be under no illusion about what Adam lost for himself and his wife and children, and what it feels like to get eternity back.
However, God invented time for us, for whatever reason, and He sent the same Holy Spirit on the earth from the beginning of creation until now, when the New Creation is being manifested, (though not yet in all fulness, just a foretaste).
Which is in answer to the original question.
in HIm
Jeannette
Romans 8:
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Galatians 2:
19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is a deficient Trinitarian theology that separates the Holy Spirit from the "Spirit of Christ." The natural tendency of Christian "religion" is to teach some theory of the Spirit's "supernatural influence" to assist in the Christian's ethical obedience in the context of a morality-based relationship with God. This is not the gospel!
In the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. "If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him (Christ)" (Rom. 8:9). By the indwelling presence of the Spirit of Christ we are "joined to the Lord in one spirit" (I Cor. 6:17) in a real spiritual union of the divine life dwelling in the Christian, where the life of the risen Lord Jesus can be manifested in character that is the "fruit of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22,23).
The Old Testament believers looked forward to the promise of life in Christ Jesus, but they did not "receive the promises" (Heb. 11:13). They responded to the graciousness of the Living God in trusting faith, and "lived" physically, socially, religiously in that old covenant relationship with God, but they did not "pass from death to life" (I John 3:14) spiritually in regeneration whereby the very presence and activity of the life of Jesus Christ became their life (Col. 3:4) in the Old Testament. It is the unique privilege of Christians within the **New Covenant** to participate in a spiritual union with the life of Jesus Christ, and to be "saved by His life" (Rom. 5:10) as His life is lived out through us.
Nowhere in Scripture are the Old Testament believers said to have "passed from death to life," to have been "regenerated," to have been "born again," or to have participated in the indwelling life of the risen Lord Jesus, throught the POWER of the Holy Spirit, who has sealed us until the day of redemption.
The Holy Spirit has always been active in the Old Testament and New. In the New Covenant, the Spirit of the life of the RISEN Christ indwells the believer.
This is/was the Mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world.....The RISEN CHRIST IN YOU ...(Colossians 1)our hope of Glory.
**1st Peter 1
Love in Christ
Katy-Did
Hi Katy, glad to see you back (just sent you a pm).
Maybe I overstated my case a little, in response to Dorcas. There is no way I would want to deny that the working of the Holy Spirit is different in New Testament times, or that what the Lord does in us, as a norm, is greater than His operation in the OT.
Although I wonder what 1Samuel 10:6-9 means if it isn't speaking of something akin to new birth?
[color=990000]6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and [b]shalt be turned into another man
9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, [b]God gave him another heart
............................................................
I'm not sure how Scripture explains about the difference between the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit. Indeed I don't know if it does!
Maybe in spiritual matters, and especially in matters regarding the nature of God Himself, the exact relationship isn't meant to be understood by our limited human minds - even regenerate ones.
Which is probably the reason for recent debates about the Trinity.
For example, the "seven spirits of God" doesn't mean there are seven Gods, any more than the concept of the Trinity means there are three Gods - as all on this thread would surely agree.
But if not, what exactly [i]does[i]is
As He said to Moses, (slightly changed wording to emphasise this aspect of the meaning), "I just [i]AM
Love in Him
Jeannette
Jeannette,
1 Samuel 10 is about Saul being anointed as King of Israel.
The situation going on is not about the New Birth. Reading the verses before between and after the ones you placed here will show that the Prophets only prophesied when the Spirit of the Lord was UPON them.
When Saul was prophesying, the question was...is he a prophet too?
But this is not about being Born Again, has nothing to do with being Saved by GRACE through faith.
OT Saints were not baptized into the Body of the resurrected Christ. Until Jesus rose from the dead, OT Saints(those looking forward to the Cross) were in Abraham's Bosom..Luke..
When Jesus rose from the dead, He lead captivity captive and those Saints now are listed among those in Hebrews 12....the Spirits of Just men made perfect. Their Perfection IN CHRIST came on resurrection day.
If OT Saints were born again as we are today, no need would have been for the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
So many focus on the work of Jesus shedding His blood dying for our sin, and yet so few understand our life on the Resurrection side of the Cross, and the resurrection life of Christ in us. OT Saints did not have this available to them....they died without the promise of the indwelling life of the Risen Christ...**The Spirit of the Life of Christ that set them free from the law of sin and death***. We are justified by His Blood, and Saved by His RISEN life.
Even those who lived by faith looking forward to the Cross still were under LAW. Hebrews 10,( the shedding of blood of bulls and goats was a shaddow of things that were to come, as the chapter continues to say...Christ came. And the blood of bulls and goats could never make anyone OT [u]perfect
[u][b]We
Here is more of 1 Samuel 10: This chapter is not about salvation.
In the New Covenant, we are given a [u][b]New Heart[i]another heart
1 Samuel 10:
6And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
7And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
8And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.
9And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.
10And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
11And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?
12And one of the same place answered and said, But who is their father? Therefore it became a proverb, Is Saul also among the prophets?
Love in Christ
Katy-Did
PS:
One would have to say if those who prophesied when the Holy Spirit came UPON them (OT Saints) is referring to the New Birth, then only Prophets/Kings in the OT would be Born Again, and not ordinary people. Do you see a problem here with that idea.
This discussion is locked.