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A passage for those who post on Sermonindex

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ChrisJD Oct 30, 2007

"For inquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers: (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow:) Shall not they teach thee, and tell thee, and utter words out of their heart?"


- Job chapter 8 verses 8-10(KJV)


Some time ago I had thought to share this passage of scripture with you all when I came across it. This morning in devotions, as I opened the Bible, the pages fell open to it.


If we know nothing,


shall not they teach us?

R
RobertW Oct 30, 2007

Some time ago I had thought to share this passage of scripture with you all when I came across it. This morning in devotions, as I opened the Bible, the pages fell open to it.

I suppose likewise I have been vexed by the modern attitude I see so often that seeks to cast off the past as if it were a lite thing and embrace anything new under the sun; but there is [i]no[/i] new thing lest it be God's working.

We are fastly moving towards full on idolatry and paganism in many parts of the Church. I believe that it is happening primarily through various 'new' styles of worship. Andrew Strom in his new book deals with how in a prophetic meeting in 2004 in Kansas City, the people were 'worshipping' God to pagan and tribal sounding music. Having cast off the old Wesley hymns such as we enjoyed at the conference- they have diluted the lyrics down to meaningless garbage and focused on the instruments and the arrangements. soon weak one liners ruled the day. Then contemporary rock and pop began to be called 'praise and worship'. Christian so-called entertainment was offered up as incense to God. This downward spiral hit a new low for me when one of my sons had been given a new so-called 'worship' CD that they were blaring from the other room. I came a running as my soul was vexed beyond measure. The first song sounded like an Egyptian chorus- tribal and pagan. One man upon hearing thought that if they continued in that way it had put the people into a trance.

It is the pattern that Israel followed.

And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. (judges 2:10)

When the world starts creeping in it will culminate with full-on idolatry and paganism. It has taken a while- but in the last 50 year we have gotten a terrible combination of things going; one is that the old has been discarded as if the former days had nothing to say to us. Two is that men have not sanctified God in their hearts and think nothing of offing to God the worship of Baal or some other pagan like ritual. It is truly SHOCKING but not surprising!

"For inquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers: (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow:) Shall not they teach thee, and tell thee, and utter words out of their heart?"

C
ChrisJD Oct 30, 2007

Brother Robert, it was good to meet you brother.


Sometime back, brother Paulwest and I looked at this same theme you brought up here, in a passage from Numbers 25, looking at the names of Cozbi and Zimri and their meanings. I could look up the thread if any are interested.


I wonder if some of the modern style praise and worship music isn't more appealing to the soul than the spirit? or that it touches and works mainly within the soul, rather than the spirit? And perhaps becuase the older style hymns and music do not appeal to the soul so much, and do not stimulate soulish feelings so easliy, that they might be considered less spiritual by those who are accustomed to the modern style? Just some thoughts.

About this though, if any have not see the DVD [b]The Cross: Jesus in China[/b], I would recommend it to you. In part 4, there is the story about a young woman, with very little education, who has composed nearly a thousand hymns. And these hymns are reported to be sung among the house churches all over China.

From what I recall seeing, the believers there sing the hymns with zeal, and passion, and tears. I think many will be blessed to see this. I have been.


I just discovered tonight that some of these hymns are on Sermonindex!


Here's one...


[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15899&commentView=itemComments]Grateful Tears by Canaan Hymns[/url]


The page on SI for the hymns is [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?op=&cid=722]Canaan Hymns [/url]

A thread about the DVD [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=2399&forum=35&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=1]DVD set--- The Cross: Jesus in China[/url]

O
Onesimus4God Oct 31, 2007

Hi,
Good topic. It has been reported to me that an orthodox church here in Tucson hired "circus clows" to hand out communion. Oh God help us go back to our roots and worship thee according to Your word.

"O"

I
IRONMAN Oct 31, 2007

Greetings in Jesus' Name dear Saints by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

bro Robert said:

When the world starts creeping in it will culminate with full-on idolatry and paganism. It has taken a while- but in the last 50 year we have gotten a terrible combination of things going; one is that the old has been discarded as if the former days had nothing to say to us. Two is that men have not sanctified God in their hearts and think nothing of offing to God the worship of Baal or some other pagan like ritual. It is truly SHOCKING but not surprising!

some time ago i was at a gathering where there was a time to worship our Lord. during it all our Lord shared some things with me which made me look upon myself and what was going on around me. i believe our Lord looks into the intents of our hearts and so i don't think that it is necessarily always a question of singing the old hymns (for one can do this and still be wicked, or do so with wicked intentions) vs new style worship. There maybe those among us who don't know any better but are worshipping God all the same out of the Abundance of Joy and Pure Intent of their hearts, the opposite is also true. i have been blessed by some of the newer lyrics, perhaps because some of them reflect things which God has been working out in my life. of course one must discern the difference between soul and spirit and the excitation of the 2 and which is from God and which is a phoney from the enemy. i believe most people are excited in a soulish way, emotionally by whatever means and this has to be repeated because it isn't an abiding excitation, if it is of the Spirit of God, there is a lasting effect which transforms the soul in a way that the soul isn't as liable to be excited by fleshly things. This is howcome sometimes we may be seen as dull or dreary, except when the things of GOd take centre stage, then we get all animated.

anyhow this is an account of what our did on 4/29/07 There were thousands of people there, perhaps 15000, i do believe there were many there that hadn't bowed to Baal.

[b]At the service, our Lord told me that i was not to stand but to set my face against what was before me. i was reminded of Elijah. He was one man who stood for God against 850 false prophets and one completely out-everythinged by them and the world’s standards. However only his God sent fire; i am as he was, one man among so many who seem to be standing for something yet are deceived. We sang “I am a friend of God” and He asked me,[/b][b][color=0000FF]“Who has shared in my grief, my sorrow and my anguish over my people? In who have i confided these things apart from you? Who has known of my anger against these my people? Did I hide from Abraham what I was to do to Sodom? I could not because he is my friend. Who among these is aware of what I have prepared in Judgment for this nation?” [/color][/b]

[b]What could i say except plead for mercy and that we be brought to repentance?

All seem so oblivious to what is coming. No consideration of the gravity of His glory and meet Him in that Ultimate Purpose. How can one be a friend of God without considering this thing? God is an acquaintance for so many and the coming judgment will soon expose this.
At the singing of another song, one of the singers said to lift up Holy hands and God retorted angrily,[/b]

[b][color=0000FF], “Holy hands?! Hands covered in filth! Woe unto those who call good evil and evil good and call that which is Holy profane and what which is profane Holy.” i saw the atmosphere of the Throne Room change to something ominous, as though His throne was ablaze with fire which seemed to be reflected in the structure and all therein. [/color][/b]

[b]At the singing of another song, “Lord hear our prayer.” He said, [/b]

[b][color=0000FF]“How can I hear the prayer of a people who has not reckoned with the gravity of their sin before me. I will not!” The word says in 2 Chronicles 7:[/color][/b]

[i][b][color=CC3300]14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.[/color][/b][/i]

[b][color=0000FF]“Set your face against this wicked people.” [/color][/b]

[b]So i did and asked God not to spare us His hand that we would come to repentance out of a true contrition from a realization of the gravity of our sins. To ensure that i would not get up, my legs would not move. i felt a deadness which couldn’t bear. Even if i wanted to run, i couldn’t. We have sown sins and will reap wrath. Not only have we sowed sin but we have misrepresented Him to the world and there is consequence for that. And i saw the Church, the Bride of Christ, worshipping at an altar of many gods. She was dressed as a harlot, looking ragged, looking very shabby wearing a garment not fit for a bride. Then i saw the Judgment of God which was as a flying eagle burning with flame bearing 2 swords of judgment, one for the Church and the other for the world. Then the Judgment of God became as an angel and appeared before the bride amid all her revelry and startled her. She was expecting another, not her husband else she would have been prepared. i saw the angel knock down every idol on that altar and smash them on the ground. He then struck her repeatedly with his sword, drawing blood and causing her to cry out. He continued to strike her and she continued to cry out and then he stopped. i beheld 2 angels coming down with 2 golden bowls of what i thought was water. They stripped her and began to bathe her and i saw the bowls contained blood mixed with water. As they poured the bowls over her, she was transformed. The marks and welts of her judgment were washed away as was her ugliness. She now looked as she should in order to be the bride of the Lamb. Praise God we are about to be cleansed. AMEN. [/b]

i believe that we in many cases have substituted what is Holy with what is profane, what is Spirit with what is soulish and we're largly unaware of the difference. The soulish requires repeated and increased stimulation of the senses with images, sound, touch. i find that such often leaves me rather disoriented and in need of periods of quiet time with Him lest i perish under the weight of such.

this is from 7/8/07

[b]i understood today why i dread Sundays. We put on our best front and treat one another differently. We fill the time with all sorts of sensual entertainment to titillate our soul because we lack the power of the Spirit of God to lift up our inner man. There is little silence in our worship is packed with something. Every Sunday is like the time when Titus entered the Holiest Place and found nothing. The Glory of God had been gone for God knows how long and no body knew. So it is in many of our services and fellowships, homes, lives and nations. God has long since been gone. Except God Moves, we are finished.
Our Lord called me out of our service and i walked to a place and He told me to sit. i sat in silence for 30-40 min and then He had me stand for about 10 min. He told me to kneel after that for about 15 min and then i stood up a while longer. For the whole time He said nothing except what i should do. There were ants crawling all over me and a bumble bee buzzing about. Then He said that we didn’t like being silent much before Him without singing or any other machination of ours. The music is oft so loud we tend to hide behind it, it drowns out what should be heartfelt praise. If we did go before Him in silence to simply wait, we would know Him as we ought. We don’t like to wait. Our lifespan is so short that we seem to feel this pressure to do and be lest the opportunity pass us. With God though, He holds time in the palm of His hand. Ought we not wait on Him to tell us when and what to do and be?

This whole weekend my senses were bombarded, images, sounds, sensations and so on. i was left quite disoriented and so i bless God for this time of quiet for it is much needed.

God said:
[/b]

[b][color=0000FF]My people rush headlong into folly. They rush ahead of me. My people will not wait upon My Spirit and so they invent all manner of guile and device to titillate the flesh and soul in the place of My Spirit. My people are drunk with the wine of soulishness! They are filled with strong drink and stagger unaware that they shall fall into a pit and a snare! They have substituted for spiritual upliftment soulish titillation which must be sustained and repeated. What is Spirit, indeed my Spirit I sustain by My Own Hand which does not tire. Lament; indeed take up lamentation for yourselves and your brethren, My people.[/color][/b]

[b]So i said to God, “if you do not move, we are finished. If you do not wake us up from our stupor, we are finished. Except you show us Mercy, we are ruined. We are perishing and don’t even know it, drugged by our drink. He led me to Romans 1 vs 18-32:[/b]

[b][color=990000]18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [/color][/b]

And Romans 2 vs 1-16:

[b][color=990000]1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; F9 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: F10 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience F11 also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.[/color][/b]

[b]This is not just and indictment against the wicked but against man also which includes us and we are without excuse (chapt 2 vs1) We have been given over to all kinds of wickedness and depravity so much so that we think we are above reproach but we are not. We have in many ways turned the Sacrifice of God, the Cross of Christ into lasciviousness. We indulge ourselves gorge ourselves on sin and titillation in exchange for the Spirit of God. We have exchanged the Truth of God for a lie and worshipped what has been created rather than the Creator (1vs25)
We are guilty!

So i sought God with much weeping. Moses pleaded with God when God was about to destroy Israel. He pleaded for 40 days and nights. He pleaded saying that surely God wouldn’t allow the nations to make fun of Him saying that He couldn’t save His own people. So i too sought God in like manner saying surely He would shown Mercy on us for His Name’s Sake and not let His Name be further blasphemed on our account by the nations. It is not because of our righteousness but for His own Name’s Sake that i pleaded with Him. We have no righteousness of our own but all we have is that of Christ which we have not put on fully hence the sins outlined in this section of scripture are found among us. “God you must Move and show Mercy and bring us to Repentance oh God.” We have failed to uphold commandment # 1 and so we flout all the other ones. If we can’t uphold the first, which is to worship no other God, which is foundational, we can’t uphold the remaining ones properly. We may not have Asherah poles, altars or temples to Baal as they were in the days of old but we have fashioned idols for ourselves that we may worship them and the result is a straying from God. We have so grieved and quenched the Spirit of God. We are like Israel in that the Shekinah Glory of God has been gone for only He knows how long. And we are to be Judged. In this Judgment, as when Titus sacked Jerusalem and burned the temple, and entered the Holiest Place, the truth will be exposed. This is God’s Mercy as He works to bring us to Repentance. AMEN.

When i came out there, He said to come out and meet Him. Now He said, “Let us go back.” He said He would show Mercy and I know He will. i saw a car with the license plate which had Zepheniah 3:17 and it was most encouraging, it reads:
[/b]

[b][color=990000]17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest F12 in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.[/color][/b]

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

C
ChrisJD Nov 25, 2007

"[i]There is[/i] a generation [i]that are[/i] pure in their own eyes, and [i]yet[/i] is not washed from their filthiness."


- Proverbs chapter 30 verse 12(KJV)

B
BVO Nov 25, 2007

Thank you for this thread. I had a lengthy post with memories that had flooded my mind of things we've experienced in our local churches, but I probably was not in line as I just accidently deleted it. God is faithful! When I started reading scripture more after my conversion, I told my pastor in passing that if Jesus came back for His bride, I didn't think He would even recognize her. He disagreed, but since then I've come to understand The "church" or steeple houses as I have heard it called are not the bride, but the remnant being drawn out will be purified. Lord, give us eyes to see and ears to hear what you are saying to us today. Love in Christ,
Barry

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murdog Nov 25, 2007

Chris,

Thanks for posting that proverb about the generation that is pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. I read that about six months ago and it really sums up what is going on today.

Open our eyes,
open our ears,
and give us a new heart.

Murray

C
ChrisJD Nov 25, 2007

Thank you both brothers.


I know I need it myself. It seems so easy for us to become wise in our own eyes, can speak for myself anyway.

Hebrews 3:13 comes to mind too.

Grace and peace be with you.

P
PaulWest Nov 25, 2007

Having cast off the old Wesley hymns such as we enjoyed at the conference- they have diluted the lyrics down to meaningless garbage and focused on the instruments and the arrangements. soon weak one liners ruled the day. Then contemporary rock and pop began to be called 'praise and worship'. Christian so-called entertainment was offered up as incense to God. This downward spiral hit a new low for me when one of my sons had been given a new so-called 'worship' CD that they were blaring from the other room. I came a running as my soul was vexed beyond measure.

Brother, this has been a lament of mine for some years now. It seems you can preach about most things with relative impunity these days from the pulpit...except music. For some reason, mention music anywhere and you'll stir a hornet nest. And I've found the same also to be true in these forums; I've noticed that most dismissals from SermonIndex stem from someone going emotionally overboard on a thread about music.

Music can be a true catalyst, music can be used through God or by Satan. I recall Elisha requesting a harp and a musician to play upon it, and as he did, the Spirit of God came and he instructed King Joram how to obtain victory against the armies of Moab. When music is ordained by God it can be a channel by which His Spirit may operate, but in the the wrong hands, it can be an instrument of the enemy to deceive the heart.

I see a parallel with the abuse of the Word of God. In God's hands, the Word is a living, breathing, pulsating two-edged sword, a fountain of wisdom to the soul, our Heavenly Manna when appropriated by faith through a clean conscience. But when placed in the wrong hands, through a rebellious heart, the Word of God can be a dagger of the cults. Both the Word of God and music can be steered by spiritual forces, and God's Holy Spirit is not the exclusive exacting influence of them over the hearts of men.

I think this is why the issue of music can be so incendiary. To argue music, for some people, is the same as arguing the Word of God, or even their own salvation. It is an immensely personal issue, for it is embedded in the realm of spirit. It's a stronghold and the deceived spirit will fight with acerbity to keep it standing. Come against someone's rock music and you come against their own spirit and you offend them personally. This is why kids will openly rebel if you try to preach against the ungodliness of this music, they'll mock you and defy you and scoff at you. They'll agree with you on everything, but music. You can't touch their music. You won't get the same result if you preach against sexual immorality, for such an act is physical and the conscience openly and immediately condemns it (even if the person is practicing it in secret).

But when it comes to this ungodly music, it is different. You're dealing with spirit now, something that has not only permeated but attached itself and [i]feeds[/i] the person's soul with the "familiar" euphoria of being in the presence of God. Kids today are being taught to seek out such euphorias, and as long as they do, they have no reason to question their salvation, or the validity of the music that keeps them "spiritual" and closer to God.

The usurper has gradually extricated the glorious Wesleyian hymns from the church and other godly music and has introduced a counterfeit familiar to replace them. At first the familiar was just an off-white decoy, but now it's getting blacker and blacker, transforming into its true color, and I believe this gradualism was necessary to acclimate people to the usurpation.

Brother Paul

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ChrisJD Nov 25, 2007

Brother Paul,


"Music can be a true catalyst, music can be used through God or by Satan...

...in the the wrong hands, it can be an instrument of the enemy to deceive the heart."

I looked up this passage in Exodus just now...

"And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, [i]There is[/i] a noise of war in the camp. And he said, [i]It is[/i] not the voice of [i]them that[/i] shout for mastery, neither [i]is it[/i] the voice of [i]them that[/i] cry for being overcome: [i]but[/i] the noise of [i]them that[/i] sing do I hear."


- Exodus chapter 32 verses 17-18(KJV)

Seems to go along with what you are saying. I guess we cannot tell really what kind of music or singing it was. Doesn't seem unreasonable that it could of been like what they were used to in Egypt. Wonder if there any other texts that would give more light. Like some of the Psalms.


Chris

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PaulWest Nov 25, 2007

I guess we cannot tell really what kind of music or singing it was. Doesn't seem unreasonable that it could of been like what they were used to in Egypt. Wonder if there any other texts that would give more light. Like some of the Psalms.

Well, one example that immediately comes to mind is the flutes and timbrels of Nebuchanezzar. Music embroiled in spiritual idolatry. Certain music has an invocative quality to it; like those guys in Islamic nations that stand in the towers and do that creepy, demonic singing chant at certain times during the day. When you hear the voice, it means it's time to take your shoes off, get on your knees, face Mecca and worship the demon. I think it was the same during Daniel's time, only with flutes and timbrels and who knows what else, and you face the statue of the king and worship.

I'm probably going to draw heat from this, but I'll say it anyways. I think it can be the same with Christian youth and their contemporary Christian rock music idols. We see this at the music festivals. Their favorite worship leader comes on stage and everyone just gets into this Pavlovian spiritual mode, they start grooving, raising their hands and closing their eyes to worship the thing that their souls interpret to be the God of Israel. Only moments before the music started, they were in utter carnality, worldly immersion. How can this be?

Perhaps they really are worshipping, in their own minds, but after the music is finished and they get the autographs they so crave and head home, is there a Christlike transformation in their spirits? This, to me, is really what matters - it is the litmus test, I believe, of a genuine encounter with God and one's willingness to repent. All things become new. With that kind of fervent, ardent worship with tears and shouting and jumping (the full gamit of emotions being expressed) you would think the transformation in their lives from such an encounter with God would be in the least bit conspicuous, but what we actually find is the vast majority of youth who bow to worship at the sound of the flutes and timbrels today are [i]not[/i] growing in godliness. We find that they still love the world, and the things that are in the world. They show no respect to the house of God, as they still come to church dressed like they're going to the beach. They're still clutching their toys, their violent video games, their seductive and worthless MySpace accounts. You go on their MySpace pages and you'll begin to see the pin-up, glossy [i]images[/i], the true emblems of their worship: the flute and timbrel players themselves! Since the kids do not know God except by what their souls under musical manipulation can temporarily show them, when the high wears off, they need a tangible object to acclaim. Obviously, it must be the musicians that are able to evoke those feelings.

G
ginnyrose Nov 26, 2007

they have diluted the lyrics down to meaningless garbage

Yeah, these lyrics are as meaningful, as insightful, as inspirational as "see Dick run, see Dick run fast". Intellectually, I have grown since this was standard fare. I say this music is an insult to ones' intelligence.. :-o

I am not sarcastic, am I?

BTW, I am 60 YO - I grew up singing and listening to songs that said [i]something[/i].

ginnyrose

G
ginnyrose Nov 26, 2007

Paul, I had not read yor post before posting mine, so I now would like to share an insight I gained at CPC. I have shared it before here on SI but do not know if you have read it...

While at CPC I was struck with the number of clients who attended church regularly but who were fornicating. They knew it was wrong but felt no compunction to quit. One day I got some inspiration which I later attributed to the work of the Holy Spirit in order to teach me something. I asked my clients, "why do you go to church?"

All responded to this question in the same manner. They were stumped. They thought a while and I let them think without me saying anything. Finally, they said "It is the music." "You like the music?" "Yes."

I consider this answer so revealing. These fornicating youth are not being convicted by anything in their church which will bring about repentance. This is a far cry from yesteryear.
In years past when our nation would see revivals, the evangelists knew the impact music had on listeners in bring conviction to souls. Many were brought in to the kingdom through the impact of good music. If I recall, D.L. Moody said music was more powerful in bring people to the kingdom then his preaching! (Moody had Ira Sankey as his song leader who also wrote a lot of songs and introduced them to the people during Moody's evangelistic services. Billy Sunday also had a wonderful song writer - Homer Rodeheaver - and musician to lead the singing.)

Thanks for sharing your insight, Paul. What you said about this being a spiritual issue makes a lot of sense.

ginnyrose

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