I need grace to surrender

[url=http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/murray/absolutesurrender/contents.htm]Absolute Surrender by Andrew Murray[/url]

I'm a very similar position and would encourage you to read "Rees Howell: Intercessor." I'll be praying and will post more as the Lord leads. The pertinent chapter I believe is Chapter 3.

The only way out is to die out and that crucifixion of the flesh is utterly painful. It's been painful to me and I've been resistant as well.

Blessings to you, Jesus will bring you through. Feel free to drop me a PM and we can talk off-line if you would like.

What would you say to someone who just is not finding it in them to obey God?

Look outside of yourself to the One who perfectly obeyed in your behalf. If you continue to look within, you will only see filth, but cast your eyes upon the One who alone is all beautiful.

Trust that the faith you have received to believe in Christ has justified you before God, and that He will work in you to will and do His good pleasure, and though this is a lifelong process, the inner man is being renewed, and His blood avails before the throne of God where no man could ever go.

After all of this, love will be the motivator, and hope in such grace that could love even the most unlovable, thus even in the darkest of moments, there will always be the trust in Him and His work for you.

freecd,

What would you say to someone who just is not finding it in them to obey God?

My reply to your question would be to unburden yourself to God. Just tell Him what you told us here, be serious about it and presevere. It may take a while...it may seem as though God wants to test you to be sure you really want what you are saying you do, and how serious are you? It may not be that God needs to know this - because he already does - but you need to come to the absolute end of yourself, realize how helpless you are before God can do the work in you you know that needs to be done.

Simple, but hard, but very possible. Been there, done that. And you do not need to read a ton of books hoping to find that magic formula because there is none...been there, done that, too. Know what my problem was? Evil imagination.

Have you ever read "Pilgrims Progress, No. 2"? Your problem reminds me of Mercy who was left outside the Wicket Gate. She sure thought she was not going to get to enter. Christiana and her children had entered but for some reason she was left behind. She was so distraught and fearful she couldn't get in, so she took her stick and she beat that door real hard with all her might. When they heard it inside they were so delighted to hear that determination they opened the door for her...reminds me of us mortals in our quest for victory.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Sometimes I think we forget that crucifixion is a slow and painful death, and also that we cannot crucify ourselves.

God has not asked us to commit suicide, but rather to let Him crucify us by His Spirit changing us, and conforming us into the image of His Son.

[b]freecd you wrote;

- I need grace to surrender

- I find within me a deep desire for God but also a strong desire for ways that I know are not of God.

- I think the question simply is, how do I choose something that I don’t want?

- Or, that I don’t want enough?

- Or, how do I choose to surrender to God when I am fighting tooth and nail not to?

- And, I am afraid to as well.

- The question is this, how do I choose something that I don’t want or that I don’t want enough?

- I came to a realization years ago that I was not obeying God and only agreeing with Him when it was convenient for me.

- How do I find the desire or the strength or the will power to choose to obey God?

- And how do I find the whatever to want to do something that I don’t really want to do?

- I see that I don’t really want to give in to God, to obey Him always, or even once sometimes.

- To give up my own ways even though I know that that will separate me from God.

- What I know and what I act on are two different things.

- I try to obey, I try to hold the self down, I try to hold the envy down, hold the bitterness down, hold the lust down. But, it will not stay down. Why?

- Because it is my self that is doing the holding and this self has no intention of holding those things down. My self is determined just to do as much as gives a kind of holy impression to me but, as long as it continues to be free, it will only do so much.

- What would you say to someone who just is not finding it in them to obey God?[/b]

[color=000099]--- Count the I's, and they're capital I's ... Ughhhhh the dreaded "I" vs. Christ battle! ... Holy Spirit told me a while back in lesson to use a small "i" in reference to myself, it was difficult at first to write but now i even think of myself as small i even in speech ... Bless God i have diminished, and really that what it's all about ...

My Moms always says, "Actions speak louder than words" so from experience i can tell you it's not "grace" you need to surrender, that we already have ... It's a much, much deeper understanding and appreciation of just what He's done for You that will catapult you into a deeper and more proper love of Him ... So i'd say the same hard, cold, honest truth to you as the conclusion i came to about myself when i was doing the very same things as you and recieved this revelation ... You don't REALLY love Jesus, nor the Father who predestined you to salvation via His Son's shed blood at Calvary, nor God the Holy Spirit who is now indwealt and livingin you since your salvation and is now being quenched and grieved by you, and trust me if one is truly saved if Holy Ghost within is grieving there's no such thing as continued fun in sin - you will be miserable!... You may have a certain appreciation for ALL that God has done for you, and it's obvious as with myself He's done something in you in that you at least felt the need to reach out in repentance in the first place, but sometimes thru some other circumstances or another we want to just stop at certain points, but now we're indwealt by the Holy Spirit and He just won't let us get away with it - thus your agonized thread ... i know the feeling, and have actually said out loud before from a whale belly experience to the One of whom we now belong, bought and paid for via His terrible price, "Lord why don't You just leave me be"? ...

Trouble is it tho it don't work that way because you're now in a marriage, and just because you're still being unfaithful and have not come to the proper appreciation of the "love" you should be in with Him, He is ever faithful and is still in deepest "love" with you regardless, to the point that He'll leave the 99 to get you when you stray, will never leave you or forsake you tho you may seek Tarshish, is determined to finish the good work in you that He's started, and as many as He loves will rebuke and chasten ...

How He adjusted me was one night Holy Spirit just showed me - me - in all my after salvation sins - and just how much pain i was causing Christ Jesus, my Savior, the One Whom i claimed i loved and appreciated so much ... And as if that wasn't bad enough then He said to me, "Multiply His sorrow by billions" ... i don't know how hard your heart is right now, but i can tell you that mine was pretty flinted at the time, and that just broke me up to tears and i haven't been the same since ... It's so much easier for me to deny self now and to keep the old guy up on the cross, know why, because "i love Him", Father, Son and Holy Spirit for what He's done for me ... We're "blood bought saved" ... We're "hand picked choosen vessels of mercy by God from before the setting of the foundation of the world" and because of it heaven is our destination and not an eternal fiery burning hell, all having nothing to do with any merit of my own, and all that He's asking in return is that "we love Him above all else, heed His commandments, and represent His love to others namely our brethren and our fellow men ...

Ever been is earthly love? ... Ever been so ga-ga over a significant other till all you ever thought about was them? ... Another guy, another gal, come along you don't even see em' even if they're monkey-shine flirting because you only got eyes for the one you love (and they didn't even die for you)? ... We'll spiritually that's the kind of "love" all we saints should have for Christ ... He calls it "first love", and when we loose it for whatever the reason He'll calls us back ... i think He's talking to you ...[/color]

[b]Here are some passages from: God's Log of Love" ... i pray it helps ...

Matt: 22
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 3
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John.14
[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John.15
[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Rom.8
[28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
[37] Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
[39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Cor.2
[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Gal.2
[20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Eph.5
[2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

2Thes.3
[5] And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

Heb.12
[6] For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Jas.1
[12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Jas.2
[5] Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

1Pet.2
[17] Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

1John.2
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1John.3
[1] Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1John.5
[1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2John.1
[6] And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Jude.1
[21] Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Rev.2
[4] Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Rev.3
[19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.[/b]

[color=000099]--- The latter we should all attempt to avoid by pro-active repentance instead of reactive ... ughhhh ...

Blessings in He who loves us enough to keep on knocking, and may He give us ALL the wisdom to open up before His knocking ceases ... "Jesus First" is more than just a notion --- [/color]

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

i have been blessed by you all here in what God has said through you all. indeed God is good, He is Determined to finish this good work which HE has begun in us. Indeed He seeks to bring us to a place where sin isn't an option for us and indeed He is purging us of our wickedness by the Cross as we are Crucified with Jesus thereupon.AMEN.

bro R.L. said this which was quite profound, or should i say, our Lord spoke this to us through him:

Sometimes I think we forget that crucifixion is a slow and painful death, and also that we cannot crucify ourselves.

God has not asked us to commit suicide, but rather to let Him crucify us by His Spirit changing us, and conforming us into the image of His Son.

Crucifixion is indeed a slow, painful death, violence of violence. i am reminded of the first verse of my favourite hymn, "Nearer my God to thee"

Nearer my God to thee, nearer to thee,
e'en though it be a cross that raises me,
still all my song shall be,
nearer my God to thee,
nearer my God to thee, nearer to thee.

we are born with the sin nature/propensity toward sin and as we indulge it over the years we have all this gunk which builds up in our hearts which we need to be purged of. it's like if you gain weight over the years, it's not going to melt away overnight, it'll take some working out dieting etc and you have to stay the course. For the child of God sin bothers him while the child of the enemy delights in it. often times in my zeal i've wanted to be free from sin like yesterday but then i had to check my motives, was i really wanting to Glorify God or was i seeking esteem from men? often i found it was the latter and i hindered the work of God coz my spirit wasn't right. that to me is like suicide, the easy way out. you know, i see a bit more clearly my wretchedness, that even when God had in mind to loose my bonds, i was thinking something apart from what He had in mind and had to be purged of that rotten thought. God is Merciful and indeed determined to see this work done...

indeed sin is no fun for the saint, it gnaws, it hurts, it causes consternation and pain to us as saints and that's us sharing in God's pain on our account. i'm finding more and more that even if a wrong thought crosses my mind i feel a grief and am compelled to repent lest i not find Peace for grieving Holy Spirit. if i respond in a spirit other than that of Christ to someone even if it's not in words but just a thought it hurts. if i act on it, the pain is worse...one could ask "so how come you sin anyway sometimes?" it's like bro R said, i love not the Lord as i ought, i bless God though that He would leave the 99 for me because in that, i am transformed and His Love is imparted to me and i can Love Him more as i ought to. it's an intersting thing which is hard to understand perhaps...i talked about this very thing with my wife and she could bear witness to that too, then i talked about it a bit with bro R...the mark of the child of God is an anguish over his/he own sin which comes from sharing in God's Grief over it and repenting and staying in the fight over sin coz it's not a cakewalk...it hurts.When your true nature is put out on display and you cry out as Paul did in Romans 7:

[b]14 for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin; 15 for that which I work, I do not acknowledge; for not what I will, this I practise, but what I hate, this I do. 16 And if what I do not will, this I do, I consent to the law that [it is] good, 17 and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me, 18 for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find, 19 for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise. 20 And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me. 21 I find, then, the law, that when I desire to do what is right, with me the evil is present, 22 for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man, 23 and I behold another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin that [is] in my members. 24 A wretched man I [am]! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? 25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin.[/b]

Paul said toward the end of his life to Timothy that he was chief of sinners, Paul new how desperately he needed God's Grace and Mercy...he knew very well what he was like before Damascus road...not a nice guy...that's a mighty thing to behold, the Love of God which turned a murderer into a martyr...this same Love makes what we once enjoyed in sin unbearable...ain't God good?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

I haven't much to say except I can relate fully to the original post.

I don't know ANYONE around me who has reached the point of full surrender and death to self. That makes it all the harder.

It's a lonely path sometimes :-(

notmyown you wrote;
"I don't know ANYONE around me who has reached the point of full surrender and death to self. That makes it all the harder."

--- My belief is as long as we're all down here on this low plain we never will meet anyone who has reached "the point of FULL surrender and death to self" (Rom. 7), but i also believe that with each passing second we should ALL be on our way to "'the point of reaching a FULLER surrender and death to self" ... Also we have to be very careful when we look out and don't see ANYONE who has reached such a FULLNESS that we don't use it as our quiet excuse to not allow Holy Spirit's movement of us toward our own reaching toward that higher mark by dying daily (1Cor.15: 31 - Gal.6: 4)

Personally what makes it "harder" for me is when i try to figure out some wiggle room around my obligation (and yep we are obligated) of surrender, tho i already know there is no such escape clause ... As a muture saint i know that what any other saint isn't doing has nothing to do with me one way or the other as far as my own knowing of what i'm supposed to be doing spiritually ...

Again had it not been for my aforementioned epiphany i'd probably be struggling just as hard against surrender as i once was, but what happened was my focus was taken off my own pain and focused on His much of which is caused by my own unfaithfulness, and then exacerbated by multiplying His pain by billions ... We're hurting our Lord, grieving His Spirit, and the bottom line is really if we love someone we don't go out of our way to willfully hurt them ... i've been faithful to God motivated by fearing Him, and i'm being faithful to God now because of loving Him ... i find love so much more an easier motivation to surrender of self will to His will ---

notmyown you wrote;
"It's a lonely path sometimes"

--- Amen it can feel that way sometimes but we're never alone, this is a part of our faith by which we overcome the world ...

[b]1John.5[/b]
[4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: [b]and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.[/b]

Blessings in He Who will never leave us or forsake us! :-D ---

--- My belief is as long as we're all down here on this low plain we never will meet anyone who has reached "the point of FULL surrender and death to self" (Rom. 7), but i also believe that with each passing second we should ALL be on our way to "'the point of reaching a FULLER surrender and death to self" ...

Very true - sorry, I didn't phrase myself very well.

There are 2 or 3 who realise that there is so much more than what we currently have. God calls us to bear 'much fruit' and I see a little but certainly nothing like I know God could do with a surrendered life. I look at the lives of great men of old like Andrew Murray, Moody, Finney and see the point of surrender they had or the point of realisation of abiding that Hudson Taylor had etc... I realise my faith is so weak and pathetic in comparison. I know I have only myself to blame also :-( pray for me!

notmyown you wrote;
"I look at the lives of great men of old like Andrew Murray, Moody, Finney and see the point of surrender they had or the point of realisation of abiding that Hudson Taylor had etc... I realise my faith is so weak and pathetic in comparison."

--- You know Paul said this in ...

[b]Gal.6[/b]
[4] But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
[5] For every man shall bear his own burden.

It's a mistake (i believe) for any of us to go around juxtaposing ourselves in comparrison to other men of God as to what they did, or how they were, because Chist is our example, and it is He of which it is Holy Spirit's mission to transform us into the image of ...

If we would just begin to surrender where we are, Holy Spirit can use us to His benefit of lifting up the Lamb in the capacity of our own burden as we all have our own specific work to do ... You can't be me, nor i you, or anybody else ... That's why i say we must be careful not to use comparrisons to ourselves of "great men of old" as if there's no possibility of God still producing and sustaining "great men of new" of which you and i could possibly be one (in the true spiritual sense - not man's current definition), but we'll never know if we don't surrender in finding out just what mission God has in store for us ...

We must also be careful not to use "weakness" as an excuse, because actually scripture says that when we are weak He is strong ... If our faith was strong enough to bring us to Christ initially, why isn't it just as strong in sustaining our walk? ... From experience, being the kind of person not prone to walking the dangerous middle, i'm either on (hot) for Christ, or i'm off (cold), and like freecd would rather just say that "i don't want to do God's will" instead
of playing along in attempted self delusion that i'm weak and pathetic when in fact in Christ i already know i'm neither ...

Some have told me that when it comes to such as this i'm brutally honest with myself, and i tell them yep because God already knows the real deal so i may as well spill it as it is ... We may be able to fool others, but none of us can fool God, and God help us if we're able to fool ourselves because that makes us Laodicean for sure ... Bottom line again, the lower our submission to Him the higher the indication of our "proper" love for Him and if we choose not to do so as you said we have only ourselves to blame because we already have both His grace and Power to do ALL THINGS thru Him ... It's our "choice" - that dreaded "choice" which reveals whom we really love most ---

notmyown you wrote;
"pray for me!"

___Amen, and you for me because i'm not perfect either - but so much better than i was ... The other day i came across an opportunity to sin that at one time would have ensnared me, the thought hit my mind and i said out loud, "Nah - i don't want to do that" - and didn't ... Know why? ... Because i thought of Christ right after, repented of even having entertained the thought, and kept right on getting up ... It's the "proper" love for Him i'm finding that makes it so much easier
for me to deny my flesh to His good pleasure and glory ... i know it's the same for us all! ---

Trying to keep the sinful self in check with the "good" side of our self is an extremely frustrating task that inevitably will lead to failure.

Let me ask you a couple of questions:
1)Do you REALLY want to be free?
2)If you would have victory in this area, would you feel better about yourself and towards others?
3)Do you often try to make solemn vows never to do it again and still fail, falling back on the law?
4)Do you look down secretly on other Christians who struggle with sin and you block God to extend grace to you?

Actually what you discribe is what sincere Christians always will have to struggle against.
I believe their are always more sublte layers of sinfulness that the Holy Ghost will expose and want us to deal with. He does it according to our level of maturity.

There is be victory for any Christian against any sin.

Ask God to show you how to die to these sins.

You said it yourself, you need grace to surrender, so does anyone of us!
He wants you to have victory over sin, but he also wants you to be humble. He gives grace to the humble.

Philip - your struggling fellow in the fight against sin!

Hi there freecd

Many of us do struggle in sin and still some times continually sinning/ having an old man desire and feel bad afterwards. Many of us can quote so many scriptures of what we should do and what scripture we can use to keep our path from sinning. Unless God gives us revelation about any scriptures in the Bible then His Word became Living to us. I know His word is alive and It is a Living Word..... we can go on and on about it.
Mate all i can say to you your not alone in the same issue, No matter what just hold on there, The Lord Christ Jesus will give you courage and perseverance, All is in His timing one step at the time, little by little, precept by precept.
If you look back you might realize that you have come a long way. God deal with us in different ways. He will make you an over comer each step you take even some times when step we take is back wards soon you step towards closer to know more of God the deeper revelation you have of Gods grace and mercy. Posting this issue of yours is you have taken a step forwards and have been open and honest to yourself, and that is courage man. Be bless and be a blessing.