What do you think about Pres. Bush and this War in Iraq?

----How many of you know that Pres. Bush acknowledges outright that he's born again and saved by the blood of Jesus Christ? ... How many of you are aware of a book called "The Faith of George W. Bush", and that while he was still governor of Texas he had a dream (If I remember correctly) that something terrible was going to happen to America, and that he had to be president when it did? ... How many of you are aware that Pres. Bush believes himself "called by God" to be president, and that he stated this along with the telling of his dream, to a few men of the cloth, amongst them Billy and Franklin Graham and James Robison, while he was yet still governor of Texas? ... I personally believe that our current President is born again ... I also believe that although a Christian, President Bush has put American in this pre-emptive Iraqi war more out of vengence (which belongs solely to the Lord) for Saddam attempting to assassinate his dad, than anything else ... But what I find most intriguing is that whether soveriegnly or permissively, God has appointed/allowed him to office, so his being there apparently fits into God's divine plan ... God knew that Pres. Bush was going to drive America into this Iraqi quagmire ... Why do you think God has allowed this (or has in effect orchestrated this situation), and how do you think He will use this war now, and into our future, to His own glorious purpose in our world, our country, and His Church?

The following statements are only personal and maybe not intended for those with a different calling than mine. :-) The deeper i grow in Christ- the less I care one iota about the politics, etc... of this world- this earthly kingdom. I am always reminded of how the Jews thought the Messiah would come to overthrow the government and he would be some big king that all could see and obey. He didn't come to do an outward thing- but an inward thing. This is why they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah.Also, we are a country full of lukewarmness and compromise- why not have a president who fits this mold also. While many in this country gloat over the fact that 'our president is a Christian'- they are having the time of their lives in lukewarm heaven. Lead by example- hmmmmm. The state of this country is in apostacy- the Lord has allowed what looks to be 'good and true' to be in rule because that is what even christians want. They want a guy who claims all the right things and heads up what's on their agendas.I am so tired of this right wing conservative christianity in America- it has become one-in the same.American Christianity has so much of our culture and philosophy mixed with it. It almost seems to be powerless in the face of our social ills.The Gospel of Jesus Christ was far more confrontive and life changing than our gospel. Our gospel is a combination of the "American Dream", the “Declaration of Independence”, the "Historical Church" and some selected teachings of Jesus all rolled into one pleasing palatable gift offered to our confused and hurting world......This explains so much. Our country- with a president like this- is content to sleep with a "christian' president at the wheel. I am wondering if it would be more beneficial for the kingdom of God for us to have a morally corrupt president because at least it keeps the christians on their toes.This presidency has allowed many people to fall asleep thinking that all is well. I see the Lord allowing this to actually let the people fall into deeper apostacy. Time will tell. I am personally not concerned or care too much about this government. I am a foreigner in this world. :-) I do not consider myself an American- only a follower of Christ. I only pray that the Lord's will will be done on earth as well as in this country. Come Lord Jesus!In Him, chanin

Moreofhim, I totally agree with you. That is basically how I see things also.

You mentioned the poorness of the faith of the president (you must know that when it comes to politics and political figures I am almost completely knowlegeless)What are some things that the president has done that would be "bad fruit" that would make you question his faith? (not refuting your point, just asking for clarification) If discussing this is gosip, ignore it.matthew

(caps for clarity)SISTER CHANIN YOU STATED:"The deeper I grow in Christ- the less I care one iota about the politics, etc... of this world- this earthly kingdom. "WITH ME IT'S THE EXACT OPPOSITE ... I'M THOUROUGHLY FASCINATED BY THE FACT THAT EARTHLY GOVERNMENTS, POWERS AND PRINCIPALITIES ARE ALL SUBJECT TO OUR LORDS WHIMS, WHETHER HE RAISES THEM UP, KNOCKS THEM DOWN OR USES THEM AGAINST ONE ANOTHER (AS I SEE HIM DOING RIGHT NOW) TO BRING FORTH THE MEND OF THIS CRACK IN INFINITY THAT WE CALL TIME, BY WINDING DOWN THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES, AND THE RULE OF SATAN IN THIS WORLD, TO THE BIRTHING OF HIS KINGDOM WITHIN A NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH.LIKE OUR OLD TESTAMENT COUNTERPARTS LISTED BELOW OUR JOB IS TO WATCH FOR THE SIGNS OF HIS COMING, TO PRAY, AND TO WARN:WATCH!Isa.21 [5] Prepare the table, watch in the watchtower, eat, drink: arise, ye princes, and anoint the shield. [6] For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Go, set a watchman, let him declare what he seeth. Isa.62 [6] I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,Jer.6 [17] Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.Jer.31 [6] For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.Ezek.3 [17] Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.Ezek.33 [2] Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: [6] But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand. [7] So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.WHAT ARE THE SIGNS I WATCH FOR?Matt.24 [3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? [4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. [5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. [6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. [8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.THE ABOVE SIGNS TO WATCH FOR ARE THOSE OF "THE BEGGINING OF SORROWS" WHICH I PERSONALLY BELIEVE WE'VE BEEN IN SINCE WW1 ... THESE SIGNS WILL CULMINATE, AND BEGIN TO SPILL OVER INTO THE SIGNS TO WATCH FOR OF "TRIBULATION" (BELOW) ... WHAT I WATCH FOR IS THE BEGINNING OF TRANSITION BETWEEN ABOVE AND BELOW ... THE TRIBULATION:[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. [10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. [11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. THE GREAT TRIBULATION:[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: [17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: [18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. [19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! [20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: [21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [32] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: [33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. [34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. [35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. [36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [40] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.HIS ADMONITION TO HIS CHURCH TO WATCH, PRAY AND BE COGNIZANT OF CURRENT EVENTS BECAUSE THEY MARK EVEN MORE THE EMINENCE OF HIS COMING:Matt.24 [42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. [43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.Matt.25 [13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.Mark.13 [33] Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. [34] For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. [35] Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: [37] And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.Luke.12 [37] Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. [38] And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. [39] And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.Luke.21 [36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.1Cor.16 [13] Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.Eph.6 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;Col.4 [2] Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving;1Thes.5 [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.2Tim.4 [5] But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.1Pet.4 [7] But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.Rev.16 [15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.Eph. [15] See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, [16] Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.PRES. BUSH MAY NOT BE A LOT OF PEOPLES DEFINITION OF A CHRISTIAN, BUT HE'S THE FIRST PRESIDENT I'VE EVER HEARD UNASHAMEDLY UTTER THAT CHRIST SAVED HIM ... WE ARE LIVING IN A TIME WHERE ALL THREE ABRAHAMIC ORIGINED RELIGIONS (JUDAISM, ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY) ARE ALL CONVERGING TO A FUTURE, POTENTIALLY CATACLYSMIC CLASH ... OUR PAST PRESIDENTS HAVE ALWAYS KEPT CHRISTIANITY OUT OF THE MIX WHILE ATTEMPTING TO JUGGLE JUDAISM AND ISLAM ... PRESIDENT BUSH HAS LIT THE FUSE OF THE AFOREMENTIONED POWDER KEG, BY ADDING CHRISTIANITY TO THIS MIX IN CLEAR ALLIANCE WITH JUDAISM ... I SEE THIS CLEARLY AS GOD'S HAND AND TIMING IN BRINGING US ALL TO THE BRINK OF TRIBULATION.

How many of you know that Pres. Bush acknowledges outright that he's born again and saved by the blood of Jesus Christ? While president Bush might have genuienly become a Christian sometime in the past, and was truly born again, I personally doubt he is currently living his life under the lordship of Jesus Christ. Although I will not say this about every political leader, it is difficult for me to imagine that a person who occupies such a high office in the world is a Christian. Obtaining such an office did not come without much political manipulation, exalting of the self, putting others down "unashamedly" as if they were but mere dogs. Bush just didn't wake up one morning, say he thought it'd be a good idea to run for President, then alerted this fact to the world and the general public through TV advertisments, and then just sat back and got elected. Nor does staying in such an office not come without the same political manipulation, exlating the self, and putting others down. Otherwise, a lot of folks who are wanting his job would have easily obtained it by now through the same methods that such offices are obtained, all while he sat around and did nothing.I believe Bush is there because God has ordained it, and frankly, he seems like the man we needed as a country since 9/11. I believe Bush might have geniuenly been born again at one point in time. But just being such does not make you a Christian. A Christian is one who follows the Lord. When asking if somebody is a Christian, the question should not simply be "Have they been born again?" Rather, the question should be "Are they following the Lord?" Many who have been born again have since abandoned the faith. Their past acceptance of Christ will gain them nothing on the day of judgment should they not be found faithful when the Master of the house returns from His trip. A dear sister in the Lord I know says the Lord has laid it upon her heart to pray daily for president Bush, because she says, he needs the Lord.

First as Rahman stated:WITH ME IT'S THE EXACT OPPOSITE ... I'M THOUROUGHLY FASCINATED BY THE FACT THAT EARTHLY GOVERNMENTS, POWERS AND PRINCIPALITIES ARE ALL SUBJECT TO OUR LORDS WHIMS, WHETHER HE RAISES THEM UP, KNOCKS THEM DOWN OR USES THEM AGAINST ONE ANOTHER (AS I SEE HIM DOING RIGHT NOW) TO BRING FORTH THE MEND OF THIS CRACK IN INFINITY THAT WE CALL TIME, BY WINDING DOWN THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES, AND THE RULE OF SATAN IN THIS WORLD, TO THE BIRTHING OF HIS KINGDOM WITHIN A NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH.I agree with this thought as long as one is only watching for the signs and protecting the sheep. The question is: are we looking for man to solve the world's problems or do we seek to discern how God is working?Secondly, I believe the war was instigated to bring about economic objectives. Zignev Bresizinski wrote a book in I believe 1997, called: The Grand Chess Match. In this book he outlines strategies that would promote world wide domination of economic and political systems by the United States. If one were to read it now you would see a remarkable coincidence of historic facts that have occurred in 5 or 6 years that parralell this book. Thirdly, if you were to read a book written by Gregg Palast, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy, you will get a glimpse of how the Bush family has ascended to power in this century. Remember Daddy Bush was head of the CIA before he became president. Grandpa Bush did business with the Nazi government before and during the WW2. "Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." James 4:4In ChristJeff

As a Political Scientist of sorts, it's rather interesting. Since I live in the D.C. area, what I see is bothersome to me, at least in terms of some of his appointees. I believe our current president is a man of faith, but much of what goes on is playing the part (again by some of his appointees).I also know that there oftentimes prayer meetings in the White House and other government officials as well. The current chaplain of the Senate is a very Godly man, as is his assistant.The work in the political arena is much like the church in the U.S. Much of it is pure fluff, "Having a form of Godliness and denying the power thereof" (2 Timothy 3:5). Then there are a remnant of true believers, who sincerely follow Christ and aren't in it for political favors or mammom of some sort or another.As to how this fits in prophetically, I'll save that for some other folks to discuss. I do believe we should pray for our political leaders and am confident we do have some godly leaders. Perhaps not a huge number (i.e. likely not a high number) but we do have some true followers of Christ. That's reassuring to me on some level but surely we should pray more.

Well, here I thought picking the 'lounge' to moderate was a safe bet ;-) My thoughts...hmmmm.First off, brother Rahman, go easy on the all CAPS, it's considered 'shouting' in Internet parlance, just a heads up.I am a 'Religious right flaming conservative' of the school of Rush Limbaugh...O.K. not totally.I used to be. So I am totally unoffended.Politics? I grew weary of the 'fluff' quite awhile ago, so much rhetoric. Was it right to go after Saddam? Yep. Terrorists? Yep.Is President Bush a Christian? I believe so, not as in 'former' but presently. I don't think his faith is for show, don't have any reason to doubt his sincerity. Has anyone read the aforementioned book? Just curious. I do understand that he reads his bible everyday and prays. Remember he is the President not a preacher and is also limited in his power by Congress and the Legislature. I would have bigger bones to pick with a lot of them frankly.I am also thankful that it was him in office when 911 happened."Issues" As a Christian I don't think it is to difficult to decide which 'side' of things we should fall on, political party's don't have any bearing on my decisions, they just happen to lean more toward one side. But my loyalty's are to the Lord. I don't get bogged down in all the rest of what is being 'said'.But world events...Oh, you bet. As was pointed out, we are to discern the times. I do hope we are keeping an eye on what is going on in Israel and the surrounding countries. It seems to me that this world is sitting on a powder keg that is just waiting to blow, and there is an awful lot of people who would love nothing more than to see us Christians, Jews and Americans dead. I believe persecution is coming, it's just a matter of time. I hope we are ready for it...

Bro. Mike, sorry about the caps ... I've got to figure out how to use "bold" when I post.((( Bro. Jeff said:I agree with this thought as long as one is only watching for the signs and protecting the sheep. The question is: are we looking for man to solve the world's problems or do we seek to discern how God is working?)))I watch the signs only to warn both the saved and the unsaved ... And yes, oh yes, to seek to discern how God is working, this is the most fascinating part of it all since we have an entire book that gives us the signs to look for before hand ... And as to looking for a man to solve the worlds problems ... Yes I look for that, but only in the since of percieving who the man of perdition is ... For it is foretold by the prophet's of old that the anti-christ will come to power by brokering peace into a world on the verge of unprecedented choas ... WWIII ... (((Bro. Mike said:But world events...Oh, you bet. As was pointed out, we are to discern the times. I do hope we are keeping an eye on what is going on in Israel and the surrounding countries. It seems to me that this world is sitting on a powder keg that is just waiting to blow, and there is an awful lot of people who would love nothing more than to see us Christians, Jews and Americans dead. I believe persecution is coming, it's just a matter of time. I hope we are ready for it... )))Amen ... I asked the question about president Bush and the war in Iraq for the reasons Bro. Mike stated above. The following is an excerpt from an essay I wrote, gleaned from a letter to Pres. Bush, shortly after 9/11:A SCENARIO FOR WWIII While ferverently praying concerning the horrors of 9/11/01 I heard the Lord our God say, "Is this you I hear O America. My wayward son, my second prodigal. You who have erred in My Christianity, the same as thine elder brother Israel in their worship of Me. Is this you I finally hear calling, God Bless Me, when you have turned your face from Me. Lip service you have offered upon My altar. Donning an outward vestige of My Godliness, but like white washed graves - inside you are full of decay. I thought I was dead to you, but in your time of travail you call? You have become an idolater, when I have told you that I am jealous, exacting exclusive devotion, and that you are to have no other gods before Me. Filthy mammon cannot save you from your reaping, nor your weapons of war. Only I can turn back the savage hand that strikes. Turn thine other cheek. Vengeance is mine, I shall repay" But how can we, as a nation, turn the other cheek to such horrific events as took place on Sept.11? Even I, a man of God privy to His plan, am soulishly, nationalistically, requiring a like payment in blood. But the larger question is what do we chance to ignite in our fit of self-righteous indignation, when we remain blinded to the fact that the real war is spiritual, invisible, and incapable of being seen thru the eyes of intellectualism and emotionalism? We have forgotten God, and replaced Him with our faith in our wealth, and in our own military might. And now the mighty find ourselves uncovered of His divine protection, and allowed to be chastised by a plague of deadly gnats. If we truly recognized this ghastly event as a clarion call to repentance, we as a nation could take this as an opportunity of global spiritual leadership, exemplifying Christ, and "forgiving (this time) those who have trespassed against us". So that if it were to ever happen again, there would be no hardship in forming a global coalition amongst the free world, against terrorism. But we won't do this, for we are still obscure to the fact that our hands are far from clean internationally, and that it is because of OUR national sin(s) that God has disciplined us so harshly. We as a nation now stand at the edge of the very self same precipice, that in the past we've so desperately pleaded the tiny state of Israel from which not to leap. And now we ourselves are about to make that jump, by massive retaliation for this unbearable wrong. I just pray that Pres. Bush, we American people, and our allies realize that once we're in free fall, there is no turning back! We Americans may soon choose to be the Satanic catalyst of the world crisis that will prepare the way of the AntiChrist. The third world conflict! For he is the man that comes to the fore with the perfect plan of peace that will quell this impending global destruction. At least for a time. -------I am on the wall watching with great anticipation!((( Bro. Mike you also said:Is President Bush a Christian? I believe so, not as in 'former' but presently. I don't think his faith is for show, don't have any reason to doubt his sincerity. Has anyone read the aforementioned book? Just curious. I do understand that he reads his bible everyday and prays. )))I believe him a Christian also ... And even though like all of us, he's prone to mistakes, even in the mistakes "all things work together for the good" ... God will get His glory out of it ... I've not read the book, but I watched an hour program with the author on C-Span's book channel, fascinating ...I think all of us have to be careful of how we judge one anothers outward Christianity, because God is a reader of the heart ... David was a murderer and an adulterer, in constant repentance, but yet he was concidered a man after God's own heart .... Why? ... Because in Acts, even though imperfect, God said that He could rely on him to do what He wanted ... My prayers are with our President, and that he will do what it is that God wants done, even if it's to bring the world to the brink of WWIII, that His kingdom come, that His will be done ... Amen

Brother Rahma,Thank you for the post and the reminder to "watch and pray". The Lord put that Scripture on my heart not too long ago. To watch the world and see what is happening, from God's perspective.God is using the war in Iraq to do what He is doing in America exposing evil for evil! The world in now seeing that the Muslim religion is a lie from hell. Even Muslims are starting to question their own religion. Praise God!God is exposing those who are using His name (in vain) and/or advancing the kingdom of darkness, whether they are professing Christians or pagans. The Roman Catholics have been exposed for not confronting homosexuality.A Baptist financial group in Arizona was caught defrauding its investors and has been destroyed.Radical homosexuals are being exposed for who they are as they try to usurp God's definition of marriage.Radical liberals are being exposed for their extreme tactics with the Pledge and the 10 Commandments.God is shining is holiness! Sin is being exposed and God is calling people accountable! The line has been drawn! It is time to choose your side! As far as the second half of the statement, "watch and pray", we are being called to stand in prayer according to Ephesians 6. We are standing both for and against. We are standing for the things of God and standing against the flesh, the world and Satan. It is interesting how President Bush is being attacked by both liberals (the world) and Christians. According to some of the posts on this site, it seems a few of you should be able to relate.Besides, do you pray for the president at much as you research and write about his faults? Do you read the Bible and pray more than you read political commentaries? Could you imagine if you life were in international media everyday? What if nearly every action and decision you made were broadcast for the world to see? How many people would call your salvation into question?(These questions are for the community in general, not a specific individual.)The fate of the nation lies in the hands of Christians and their response to God! Let us fix our eyes on Jesus!For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God. . .When the prophet Malachi spoke of the refiner's fire, who did God first refine? The Levites! The spiritual leaders of the day. Where are the spiritual leaders of our day? How are we praying for them?Henry Blackaby has just published a book entitled, "Holiness". It includes three of his most important sermons. First that the church has lost the fear of the Lord. Second, we no longer view sin from God's perspective. Third, about the need for our lives to be a highway of holiness.When the church is right with God, proper politics will fall into place. We are the light of the world and if the world continues to grow darker, we must look inwardly and ask ourselves, "Why?".God is using the war in Iraq to confront and expose evil. What evil in your life is God confronting? The message of Scripture is clear, Repent now, before it is exposed.HolinessGod bless,Matthew

Bro. Mike, sorry about the caps ... I've got to figure out how to use "bold" when I post.No problem, got your other message, but figured it best to reply here for others as well. You can do bold one of two ways. When typing out your post or reply just above the box is a series of small boxes preceding B (bold), I (Italicized), and U (underlined).Probably the best way to illustrate it would be for you to type in some text in the long box next to these and then check the B box, then 'add'. You will notice the 'tags' are now in place before and after the text, these are HTML tags and work by inserting the proper letter/letters between the [ ]. If you notice there is a list of 'allowed' HTML near the bottom.Note the placement and the use of the " / ". It is always the same formula: [ ] first, (text in the middle) and [/ ] last.If you use the 'add' button it will always put it where you leave off, so if you were to cut and paste from the middle of something you are typing, it will be placed at the bottom.Personally I have gotten use to just typing in the 'tags' as I go along. Practice with some text and use the 'preview' button to see what it will look like. The 'quote' button is also similar. Click on it, type in some text: The Lord is good!, click O.K. and note the tags'.It's all cut and paste, trial and error and a bit of practice, the 'preview' is a true blessing, I would have made quite a mess early on without it :-P One other little thought, when using the 'tags' take note of the spacing, you will see how they can be crowded against the other text...Hope that helps.

I have doubts about his methodologybut I do not doubt his sincerity.I applaud his stance on marriage's sanctitybut the mess in Iraq might make him lose his sanity.I appreciate his consistency and integritybut I have questions about confusing Christianity with American identityCheers, Sam

Rahman wrote: But how can we, as a nation, turn the other cheek to such horrific events as took place on Sept.11? Even I, a man of God privy to His plan, am soulishly, nationalistically, requiring a like payment in blood.Brother Rahman, it is not my intention to attack you. I am merely using this statement to pose a question. As a believer grows in the Lord, can nationalism remain?In ChristJeff

Conversely, can a person mature as a Christian and not increase his sense of patriotism?Here are two resources from the Vision Forum on this subject:Patriots vs. ToriesChristians vs. Diests

Bro. Jeff you wrote:((( Brother Rahman, it is not my intention to attack you. I am merely using this statement to pose a question. As a believer grows in the Lord, can nationalism remain? )))No my brother I don't take your question as an attack, but a valid query ... One that I asked myself after the Oklahoma bombing, and over and over again after 9/11 ... And one that has made me consciously list my priorities ... I'm a Christian first ... An American second ... then my ethnic group.To be totally honest I really wasn't aware that I was as nationalistic as my reactions to these two incidents ... On the Oklahoma bombing I thought it was outside terrorism and had thoughts of turning into a sea of glass whomever was responsible, then the gut wrenching discovery that it was one of our own ... But by the time of 9/11 our Lord was dealing with me in a totally different manner, and I saw 9/11 as His judgement, and that's where my nationality had to take backseat to my Christianity ... That's why the next sentence is:"But the larger question is what do we chance to ignite in our fit of self-righteous indignation, when we remain blinded to the fact that the real war is spiritual, invisible, and incapable of being seen thru the eyes of intellectualism and emotionalism? We have forgotten God, and replaced Him with our faith in our wealth, and in our own military might". Nationalism can only be self righteous indignation if that nation is out of the will of God.What you quoted was initially in the context of a letter to Pres. Bush addressing the fact that as a fellow American I too understood his emotional, humanistic desire for revenge ... But that we as Christians must sacrifice that to the tail end of the "word" I heard from the Lord ... namely,: "Filthy mammon cannot save you from your reaping, nor your weapons of war. Only I can turn back the savage hand that strikes. Turn thine other cheek. Vengeance is mine, I shall repay"That is why I initially posted the question: What do you think about Pres. Bush and this War in Iraq ... I believe that Pres. Bush is a believer, but I think that he let his emotionalism, and his nationalism preceed his Christianity ... And that's why I also said God already knew that he'd do this ... This mistake would not have been allowed to happen if our Lord did not have a use for it ... I believe that use is impending judgment.Jews under Jehovah, whether in the right or in the wrong we're very nationalistic ... When they were in the right they won as a nation, when they were wrong they lost as a nation ... We're in the wrong ... So yes, even as a believer I think nationalism can remain ... So while I'm a Christian first and foremost, I'd be lying if I said I didn't love America ... It's my earthly home ... It's why I weep and pray over her, as Jeremiah and Jesus did over the nation they loved.

Matthew 2323 wrote:Conversely, can a person mature as a Christian and not increase his sense of patriotism?What is the definition of patriotism? Is is not very simply pride for one's own country? What is one of the core teachings of Jesus in regard to pride? Does not pride cause one to stumble?In ChristJeff

Matthew2323 ... Praise God that He is using all of us as reminders to one another ... I totally agree with what you posted in regards our President, we the Church, and our need to keep our eyes on Christ, in HOLINESS! ... The latter is the key to why our country is in the mess we find ourselves in ... A majority unholy, unsanctified, unsalty, luke warm Church, more afraid of living holy than sinful. And Bro. Jeff your post has made me think even harder about my nationalism, and I can without a doubt tell you that if I had to choose between my spiritually far country and my natural country of America, I won't become a pillar of salt in the choice ... '0) ... Amen. And lastly "patriot" and "patriotism" is defined in Webter as "love" for ones country, not pride ... although I'm sure many Americans have the definition twisted ...I don't mean any of what I'm posting is in a spirit of harshness, or rudeness ... I am enjoying the dialogue!In His love,R

First I will humbly and apologeticaly say that I used to be a very strong right wing conservative republican--when i was a lukewarm christian. I listened to talk radio and supported many political things. (since then, hearing about rush limbaugh being addicted to all those medications was no surprise to me- many in this camp say one thing but do not live it) Things have defintiely changed since I decided to surrender my whole entire life to Christ, pick up my cross and follow Him. My allegiance used to be to many things -with Christ thrown in there too. Now it is Christ alone.What I see is that, especially since 9-11, that American Patriotism has become a religion. I see so many, many people who are boasting and proud to say the pledge of Allegiance or quote something about how they believe in God and country. And they think this makes them a christian.Patriotism and Christianity are not the same. I am appalled that they are even considered to be similar. I know many "christians -in- name-only" who are blind to the fact that God is not just the God of America. Jesus is not American. The American dream did not come out of the bible.I am ashamed of America and it's idolatrous and adultrous ways. I am ashamed of our pride- in thinking we are the BEST and greatest thing to ever happen to this world. Pride comes before destruction. We are consumed with wealth and material posessions. I don't see much humility in America. I don't see much "carrying our cross" in America.Yes, we have a duty to rend to Ceasar- what is his- but our citizenship is not of this world. We are to be aliens in this world.The deception of all of this is what concerns me. I hear so many comments from people who believe they are christians because they are right wing conservatives. They believe in the 10 commandments and keeping God in the pledge of Allegiance. No one is telling them any different.Patriotism will not save you. Fighting for certain rights will not save you- giving up your rights may save you. Because giving up our rights and giving up anything Christ asks us to lay down and picking up our cross to follow Him is our only hope.We don't need help from experts or politicians- this is not the kind of help we as a dying sleeping church in America needs. We need to hear the word of God. We need to listen to Him- not talk radio or politicians or experts. We cannot serve God and man.In reading Ezekiel (and many on this forum are aware of the similarites of God's people (Judah) and God's people in North America. Things are not getting better. Just like Judah- we are a people who are supposed to be His but we are so full of idolatry and adultery. We are also a people who claim Him with our lips (and our patriotic songs) but we deny Him by our actions.I know with every thing in me that God is grieved at America and compares it as worse than Sodom and her sisters. If it is true that a real Christian was leading our country- how can it be that the church in America is falling deeply faster into deception and apostacy and believing a "false gospel". A happiness, everyone-is-included gospel. When our "christian" leaders talk about God - why do they not mention JESUS? All of these christian things they do- prayer meetings ect- this is no different then the regular lukewarm sleeping churchs all over America. If we come on here to explain what it really means to be a christian and say that many of the christians today really actually have not surrendered their entire lives to Christ- we come on here to explain how coming to Christ (as explained in Ten Shekels) is about His glory alone and not for what we can get out of Him- that we are supposed to love Him, serve Him and obey Him just because He is worthy-- why do we make exceptions for christian leaders? Just because they are not preachers- neither am I or the next girl or guy- but the Lord still has His standards. He does not make exceptions for certain individuals.Patriotism itself has become an idol, I'm afraid. I see it everywhere. All of these other things cause people to lose focus on Christ alone. Again, I pray that the Lord's will will be done and I know it will. Someday soon we will see His preeminence over all things, while the rest of this folly falls away.ok, i guess i'll stop now. :-)

Well, it's hard to argue with that logic.Thanks Chanin for giving our noggins a fine tuning and something to think about...