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Gould we please settle this?

L
Logic Nov 13, 2007

One always referes to the first part of John 3 when they talk about this so called regeneration
John 3 has nothing to do with regeneration/rebirth, John 3 talks about being "born from above", they are two totally different words.

Furthermore, "born from above" is γεννηθη ἄνωθεν.
"Born again" is actualy αναγεννάω, which is different from the word "regeneration" (παλιγγενεσία).

So, you have three words:
παλιγγενεσία = rebirth/Regeneration
γεννηθη ἄνωθεν = Born from above.
αναγεννάω = Born again

[b]Titus 3:5[/b] [color=990000]not by works in righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,[/color]
In other words: Not by good works, but according to His mercy, being rebirthed(new again) by the washing from sin with the Holy Spirits renovation, that is how we are saved.

[b]1 Peter 1:23[/b] [color=990000]Being born again(begotten again), not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abides for ever.[/color]
In other words: We have eternal life(born again) by incorruptible Seed(God as our Father).

The word "seed" is Greek "spora": a sowing, that is by implication, a descent from parents.
If one is "born again", one has God as his own Father now, and therefore, already save.

John 3 is saying one must be "born [b]from above[/b]" he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So, which word is that so called rebirth (being in limbo) in which one is an unsaved born again person?

I
intrcssr83 Nov 13, 2007

by Logic on 2007/11/13 14:35:26

One always referes to the first part of John 3 when they talk about this so called regeneration
John 3 has nothing to do with regeneration/rebirth, John 3 talks about being "born from above", they are two totally different words.

Furthermore, "born from above" is γεννηθη ἄνωθεν.
"Born again" is actualy αναγεννάω, which is different from the word "regeneration" (παλιγγενεσία).

So, you have three words:
παλιγγενεσία = rebirth/Regeneration
γεννηθη ἄνωθεν = Born from above.
αναγεννάω = Born again

Titus 3:5 not by works in righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
In other words: Not by good works, but according to His mercy, being rebirthed(new again) by the washing from sin with the Holy Spirits renovation, that is how we are saved.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again(begotten again), not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abides for ever.
In other words: We have eternal life(born again) by incorruptible Seed(God as our Father).

The word "seed" is Greek "spora": a sowing, that is by implication, a descent from parents.
If one is "born again", one has God as his own Father now, and therefore, already save.

John 3 is saying one must be "born from above" he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So, which word is that so called rebirth (being in limbo) in which one is an unsaved born again person?

So... you're essentially saying that while a concept doesn't appear in one portion of scripture it immediately disproves the concept despite it obviously appearing somewhere else, right? If you're trying to be systematic in your theology, then sorry brother, this isn't very clear.

R
rookie Nov 13, 2007

1Pet. 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because
\t“All flesh is as grass,
\tAnd all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
\tThe grass withers,
\tAnd its flower falls away,
25 \tBut the word of the LORD endures forever.” Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you. 1 Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,


The source that renews the heart and mind is the word of God. It is by obeying the truth through the Spirit that one is enabled to purify one's soul. The flesh is as grass, it dies but the word of the Lord endures forever. So therefore desire the pure milk of the word....for it is incorruptible.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

God speaking to man is the grace upon which faith is sown in the hearts of those who hear...

Proverbs 1:

23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

D
dohzman Nov 13, 2007

Ron Bailey is an expert in greek and is out of the country for the next 2 weeks, when he returns ask him, I'm sure he'll be able to clear this up for you. As for myself I'm no greek anything, sorry can't help you.

L
Logic Nov 13, 2007

intrcssr83 wrote:

So... you're essentially saying that while a concept doesn't appear in one portion of scripture it immediately disproves the concept despite it obviously appearing somewhere else, right? If you're trying to be systematic in your theology, then sorry brother, this isn't very clear.


I am saying that while you use a word to describe something, the word that you use doesn't mean what you use it for.

If someone is re-birthed, born again, born of the spirit, born from above, then one is "born of God" by definition. If one is born of God, then he is one of God's(saved, convertred, has eternal life)
1John 3:9, 1John 4:7, 1John 5:1, 1John 5:4, 1John 5:18.

L
Logic Nov 13, 2007

rookie wrote:

God speaking to man is the grace upon which faith is sown in the hearts of those who hear...

Where in the bible is faith sown in the heart?

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Nov 13, 2007

Hi Logic...

If someone is re-birthed, born again, born of the spirit, born from above, then one is "born of God" by definition. If one is born of God, then he is one of God's(saved, convertred, has eternal life)
1John 3:9, 1John 4:7, 1John 5:1, 1John 5:4, 1John 5:18.
If you asked me, I would say ALL OF THE ABOVE. Each of those statements describe my experience. I was re-birthed, born again, born of the spirit, born from above and born of God (although I am not so sure about "born from above" because I'm not quite sure that the "Heaven" of God's abode is "above" us in a physical sense). From a perspective strictly focusing on the logos, I find it interesting that most translators felt more comfortable with "born again" over "born from above." This is true with translations taken largely from the TR and translations taken from the other text sources (like the NIV). While "born from above" seems to be reiterated in John 3:31, the phrase "born again" appears once more in I Peter chapter 1:
[b]23[/b] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Interestingly, most academic translations, including the English Standard Version and the New International Version include the "born again" within the text, but footnote "or possible, "born from above." The ESV also includes the following:
"[b]John 3:3[/b] Or from above; the Greek is purposely ambiguous and can mean both again and from above; also verse 7."
I find it interesting that they used the words "[i]purposely ambiguous[/i]." I suppose that we could say the same thing about much of our own vernacular, most powerfully with the words "I love you." The word "love" can take several different meanings.

Anyway, you might contact some linguistic scholars or even some of the Biblical translators. I think Ron's opinion could also be quite enlightening on the matter!

:-)

sermonindex Nov 13, 2007


Chris said

I am not so sure about "born from above"
Hi Chris,

I believe this has to be held against what Jesus said about 'beneath'.

John 8:23
And he said unto them,

[u]Ye are from beneath[/u];
[b]I am from above[/b]:

ye are of this world;
I am not of this world.


John 3:31
He that cometh from above is above all:

he that is of the earth is earthly,
and speaketh of the earth:

he that cometh from heaven is above all.


R
roaringlamb Nov 13, 2007

This is part of a reply I am working on for another thread, but it fits perfectly here.

Gennao

A study of the Greek word gennao (Strong's 1080).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Greek Dictionary of the New Testament:
"1080. gennao ... to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: —bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring."

Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature:
"gennao 1. beget — a. (literally) become the father of. (Passive) be begotten — that which is conceived in her is of the Spirit — Matthew 1:20 (of that which is unborn). Here the male principle is introduced."

The New Lexicon Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language:
"begotten ... past [tense] of BEGET."

Webster's Third New International Dictionary:
"beget ... to make (a woman) pregnant."

Webster's New Dictionary of Synonyms:
"Beget, get, and sire imply the procreating act of the male parent."

Shorter Oxford Dictionary:
"beget 2b. GET (with child) —1611."

Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:
"synonym 1: one of two or more words or expressions that have the same or nearly the same meaning."

J. I. Rodale, The Synonym Finder:
"beget ... father, sire, procreate, generate, engender, get; breed, propagate, reproduce, spawn; impregnate, Biology fecundate, Biology fertilize."
"conceive ... beget, procreate, father, sire; generate, engender, propagate, reproduce; become impregnated, become pregnant, become fertilized, come with child."
"impregnate ... inseminate, make pregnant, get with child or young, Slang knock up; fertilize, fructify, make fruitful, fecundate; beget, create, procreated, engender, generate."
"engender ... beget, create, procreate, father, sire, sow the seeds of, conceive."

Roget's International Thesaurus:
"169.8 procreate, generate, breed, beget, get, engender."
"169.10 fertilize, fructify, fecundate, fecundify; impregnate, inseminate, spermatize; get with child or young; pollinate or pollinize."
"169.18 pregnant, enceinte [French], with child or young, in the family way [informal], gestating, breeding, teeming, parturient; ... carrying a fetus or embryo; ... superimpregnated."

Unless otherwise noted, the verses are the King James Version translations of the Greek word gennao, and represent every occurrence of gennao in the New Testament.

Matthew 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived [YLT: was begotten] in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

Matthew 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee [YLT: the holy-begotten thing] shall be called the Son of God.
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Luke 1:57 Now Elisabeth's full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son.

Luke 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born [YLT, Fenton: begotten], not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

John 9:19 And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?
20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.

John 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

John 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Acts 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Acts 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

Acts 7:20 In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months:
21 And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son.

Acts 7:29 Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

Acts 22:27 Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.
28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.

Romans 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender [YLT: beget] strifes.

Philemon 1:10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten [YLT: did beget] in my bonds:
11 Which in time past was to thee unprofitable, but now profitable to thee and to me:
12 Whom I have sent again: thou therefore receive him, that is, mine own bowels:
13 Whom I would have retained with me, that in thy stead he might have ministered unto me in the bonds of the gospel:
14 But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang [YLT: were begotten] there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

Hebrews 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made [RSV: born] to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born [YLT: hath been begotten] of him.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born [YLT: hath been begotten] of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born [YLT: hath been begotten] of God.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born [YLT: hath been begotten] of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born [YLT: hath been begotten] of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born [YLT: begotten] of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born [YLT: hath been begotten] of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

R
roaringlamb Nov 13, 2007

Now we know that we had nothing to do with our natural birth, and Scripture alludes to our Spiritual being the same.

Consider 1 John 5:1
1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Now here is where Greek does become necessary.

We know that in Greek there is no word for "whosoever", rather it is better understood as "all those who".

“Believes” is in the present tense, whereas “born” is in the perfect. We could paraphrase it:.. “Whoever now believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God in the past with the result that he is now in a state of spiritual life.”

From this we see that the Spiritual birth, or regeneration which is the means of Spiritual life by changing us from "dead in sin" to "alive in Christ" comes prior to faith, and that faith is a fruit of the new creation which has been born of God.

Now for the phrase "born of God", you will find that it is unique to the Epistles of John. It appears five times, and always uses the Greek word "ek" for the word "of". Ek means out of, or out from. It does not in the slightest show that the birth is something we do, or cooperate with.

Again I refer you all back to your natural birth, and how much control you had over it.

It is necessary for the new birth to be from God alone as we are dead in sin, and He must quicken, or give life to us. I have yet to see a corpse revive itself, or have a will to cooperate with those who are resuscitating it.

God gives birth to whom He will when He will, and this why Jesus said that the Spirit was like the wind. The wind cannot be grasped in our hands, or made to bow to our demands, it blows when it wishes.

B
BenWilliams Nov 13, 2007

There is only one problem with this whole analogy,

Babies that are in the womb are neither dead, nor paralized.

L
Logic Nov 13, 2007

roaringlamb wrote:
It is necessary for the new birth to be from God alone as we are dead in sin, and He must quicken, or give life to us.
Again, if someone has a new birth from God, then one is "born of God" by definition. If one is born of God, then he is one of God's which is the same as being saved and/or convertred; he has has eternal life.
Why are you making it mean something that it doesn't?

Furthermore, when/where is s this so called rebirth (being in limbo) in which one is an unsaved born again person?
1John 3:9, 1John 4:7, 1John 5:1, 1John 5:4, 1John 5:18.

roaringlamb wrote:
Now we know that we had nothing to do with our natural birth, and Scripture alludes to our Spiritual being the same.

Again I refer you all back to your natural birth, and how much control you had over it.

I have yet to see a corpse revive itself, or have a will to cooperate with those who are resuscitating it

You are taking the analogy of being dead in sin way to far because it puts a different meaning to what Paul meant when he wrote, “dead in your trespasses and sins”.
Using your theology, we could just as well conclude that those who are dead in their sins cannot think, breath, speak or hope, since dead people can’t do those things either.

Like all analogies, there are likenesses that can be drawn between physical and spiritual death, but, like all metaphors, there comes a point where similarities turn to dissimilarities. You are taking the term spiritually dead to far in what it is supposed to mean.
If "unregenerate man"(dead man) could do evil but doesn’t because of his conscience (this unregenerate man is restrained by himself, and not some outside force), then "unregenerate" man is making a moral decision by his own free will.

“dead in your trespasses and sins”( Col 2:13) means that unregenerate man has no relationship with God because of his sins and is void of spiritual life, That is all it is suposed to mean. Do not take it to far.
It does not mean that man is incapable of making a choice to repent, just as it obviously does not imply man’s inability to make any other choice, including moral choices.
Unregenerate people have the capacity to choose between doing what is right and or wrong and any moral choice.
Receiving Christ is a moral decision. People make choices all the time to obey or disobey their own God-given consciences (see Rom. 2:14-15). They are not so evil that they are incapable of choosing to obey, for example, one of God’s commandments. So what is the difference between any other moral choice that an unregenerate person makes and the moral choice to repent and follow Jesus?
It is obvious from many of scriptures that Paul did not believe that people who are “dead in their trespasses and sins” are incapable of submitting to God.

R
roaringlamb Nov 13, 2007

Furthermore, when/where is s this so called rebirth (being in limbo) in which one is an unsaved born again person?
1John 3:9, 1John 4:7, 1John 5:1, 1John 5:4, 1John 5:18.

The rebirth may be unknown to us, or it may be. But the bottom line is that after we are given life, we will believe.

As I have said, and as Scripture verifies, our new birth is not based upon our faith or our repentance, but rather these are fruits or proofs of life.

Only a Christian struggles with sin, as the unbeliever cares less about their offense to God. It is a very good sign of life within if you struggle with sin, or desire godliness.

Using your theology, we could just as well conclude that those who are dead in their sins cannot think, breath, speak or hope, since dead people can’t do those things either.

No brother, I fully understand that man can make moral decisions, and can think and breathe. However man is not able to have spiritual life, because he is cut of from God, and thus this is the death that we must be revived from.

If "unregenerate man"(dead man) could do evil but doesn’t because of his conscience (this unregenerate man is restrained by himself, and not some outside force), then "unregenerate" man is making a moral decision by his own free will.

Not so, men are not as evil as they could be because God has given restraints. Whether they be conscience, laws, police, God has set in order ways to keep men from being as wicked as he could be.

Even a man who restrains himself because of conscience is only verifying the marred image of God he carries, and thus further condemns him,if he will not repent. And no he is not off the hook because he cannot on his own as he was born a debtor to God, and not one who should be rewarded.

“dead in your trespasses and sins”( Col 2:13) means that unregenerate man has no relationship with God because of his sins and is void of spiritual life, That is all it is suposed to mean. Do not take it to far.
It does not mean that man is incapable of making a choice to repent, just as it obviously does not imply man’s inability to make any other choice, including moral choices.

Yes brother, man is spiritually dead, and cut off form God. Man is blinded, and cannot and will not come to God on his own.

Man's moral decisions are based upon his the state of his heart. If a man is bound by sin, he will only make sinful decisions, that is all he can do. He may make "moral" decisions that look good, and seem "Christian". But apart from the re-birth man will do all these things out of the sinful nature he carries, and as a means to produce self righteousness.

I fear for you if you only believe the Gospel is moral. Even Paul says that the Law is spiritual, and he goes on to say, "but I am carnal, sold under sin." The Gospel in its true form is not something a natural man can comprehend. Natural man does not understand that he has offended the One who has given him life,nor does he care.

When a man begins to fret and worry about his standing with God, it is because God is drawing him. Ultimately this man will come as God's grace always accomplishes what it sets out to do.

Because this life alone comes from God, God receives all glory, and man is humbled by the mercy of God. There is no room for man to think that he had something to do with his salvation.

Now compare this verse to the Titus passage you quoted-
James 1:18 Of [b]his own will begat he us[/b] with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Titus 3:5 [b]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy[/b] he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

It is obvious from many of scriptures that Paul did not believe that people who are “dead in their trespasses and sins” are incapable of submitting to God.

It is more obvious that the verses you are speaking of usually are addressed to Christians who would be able, because they had been given life to do it.

Don't confuse exhortations to the Church with ability in natural man.

Consider if I say to you, "all men who wear blue pants are kind."

Am I not only making a statement? or do you see in this something of a command to men?

I think the majority of what you say is commands that natural man can keep are nothing more than statements God has made, but they do not imply ability. Consider, "if you will be perfect, go and sell all you have, and come follow me."

So by your thinking, I could sell my house, and my car, and all I own, and have righteousness before God. Not only that, I have the ability to do this, and I don't really need anyone to atone for my sin, because I am doing what is required of me morally.

What you fail to see is that if the heart is not changed, and born of God, they are not Christians. Why is this important? Because many people do this in the name of Buddha as a means to justify themselves. Morals will not save you.

You do not understand the depth of sin that needs to be done away with, and that is why you can say that man is moral, and can make a "decision" for Christ at any time he wishes.

R
roaringlamb Nov 13, 2007

There is only one problem with this whole analogy,

Babies that are in the womb are neither dead, nor paralized.

Well, God has seen fit to describe His giving life as the new birth.

If you look at other terms that are synonymous with re-birth, you will find they all point to things men cannot do.

Re-birth, re-creation, resurrection, adoption etc.

Now in the other forum, you had stated that the Five Points fall if regeneration is found untrue.

To this I must disagree. The Five Points fall if original sin is not true, and here is why.

If man is not dead in sin(cut off from God), then he is not totally unable to come to God, or unable to meet God's standards, or respond to God apart from the Holy Spirit. So that would do away with the "T".

And if man could use his own will to "choose" God, then election would not be unconditional, or not based on something in man, or something man does. But rather it would be "conditional" based upon a goodness within man, or his foreseen choice.
So there goes the "U".

Of course if all men everywhere were able to choose God at anytime they wished, then only those who chose would partake in the benefits of the atonement, which strangely would still limit it.
So, the "L" could stand.

But if man was almost omnipotent, or at least stronger in his will than God, man could resist God no matter what God did. Man if not dead in sin would have spiritual life which could refuse its Maker.
So no more "I"

Lastly, if man is not needing of life, and is only wounded, or misguided, then his choice ratifies God's choice of him, rather God has elected man because man chose Him. Well then man must continue to keep himself in this state, because it is all based on his actions, and not God's. Well then man must make himself persevere as God is really powerless to change his will or refine him into the image of Christ.
So no more "P".

So no, if sin does not cause all men to be in death spiritually from the womb, then and only then do the Five Points fall.

And again, you are stating nothing new, as the Arminians tried to argue the same, as did the Roman Catholic Church. Because both of these systems are Pelagian in thought, they deny man being dead spiritually, but rather wounded and able to raise himself up, you know like how Lazarus raised himself up by his decision in the tomb.

B
BenWilliams Nov 13, 2007

roaringlamb wrote:

Well, God has seen fit to describe His giving life as the new birth.

Yes, He has.

If you look at other terms that are synonymous with re-birth, you will find they all point to things men cannot do.

Re-birth, re-creation, resurrection, adoption etc.

True, but we are not discussing the synonyms, we are discussing the issue of birth. My mother happens to be a midwife, so I do know a bit about births, and if you take the time to study birth, you would find it has far more similarities to the Christian walk, and being transformed into our spiritual bodies when we die or Christ comes than it does with what you are describing.

You are limiting the meaning of being born again to the idea of coming out of the womb.

I don't like talking about real births, because frankly, the subject is very wierd to me.

But have you considered that salvation is not the preverbial coming out of the womb, but that it is the conception, and then the pregnancy is the life of the believer, and the coming out of the womb is the changing of our corruptible fleshly bodies, into ressurected bodies?

There is far more to that subject than you are giving it, and the intricacies and depths of wisdom and knowledge in the comparrisson are extremely genius in what they are.

Yet, with all that you have said, the fact that the child is alive in the womb, proves that your comparrison is faulty at best. While similar, it is not similar enough to be an exact representation.

If you study the issue from the angle of salvation and birth being representative of from conception on like I have described, you will find the similarities between those two to be staggeringly clear.

Now in the other forum, you had stated that the Five Points fall if regeneration is found untrue.

To this I must disagree. The Five Points fall if original sin is not true, and here is why.

No, what I said is that if regeneration takes place before faith, then the five points fall. Reason being that the scriptures teach plainly that faith comes before salvation, not salvation before faith.

Now follow the thought, if someone is saved after they believe, then the implications of the "T" in TULIP are not true, therefore point one of five falls, and so goes the rest, except for maybe "L" as you mentioned.

Each of the five points do not stand completely on their own, "T" makes a statement, "U" relies on that statement to be true so that it itself is true. So if "T" is not true, "U" is not true, and then all you have is a lot of "LIP", lol :-P just kidding, I thought you would find that joke funny.

My point in that statement is that the implications of original sin that you believe in fail to be true if a person is saved after they believe.
------------------------------------------------------


If man is not dead in sin(cut off from God), then he is not totally unable to come to God, or unable to meet God's standards, or respond to God apart from the Holy Spirit. So that would do away with the "T".

Right, and as we know, the barrier between God and man was broken by the death of Christ, the reality of this is the veil of the temple being torn in two.

As we know, Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world, so that even though the barrier was destined to take place, it was removed by this act of God.

And if man could use his own will to "choose" God, then election would not be unconditional, or not based on something in man, or something man does. But rather it would be "conditional" based upon a goodness within man, or his foreseen choice.
So there goes the "U".

Again, U only stands upon T, so without the U, the T does not even exist.

Of course if all men everywhere were able to choose God at anytime they wished, then only those who chose would partake in the benefits of the atonement, which strangely would still limit it.
So, the "L" could stand.

While this point may appear valid, the scripture says that Christ tasted death for all men.

The atonement is not limited at all, salvation is limited. Salvation is limited to those that believe. The atonement is universal.

But if man was almost omnipotent, or at least stronger in his will than God, man could resist God no matter what God did. Man if not dead in sin would have spiritual life which could refuse its Maker.
So no more "I"

How is it that they have resisted His will for them to repent, as I have shown already, and proven by many illustrations?

Lastly, if man is not needing of life, and is only wounded, or misguided, then his choice ratifies God's choice of him, rather God has elected man because man chose Him. Well then man must continue to keep himself in this state, because it is all based on his actions, and not God's. Well then man must make himself persevere as God is really powerless to change his will or refine him into the image of Christ.
So no more "P".

If God perseveres for us, then why should we?

I know your response, God causes us to persevere because He has changed us, or something along those lines.

Yet, it is obvious to me that you have not studied covenants, nor the practice of them, and also of God's continuous use of them throughout scripture.

If you look up a man in the audio preaching section named Milton Green, I think in the first few pages of sermons, he does some teaching on covenants, one major part of a covenant is that it is between two people, and if one of them breaks the covenant vows, the covenant is over, and the covenant is conditional upon discussed terms beforehand.

The two parties will state their part in the covenant, they will pronounce blessings over each other if the other keeps the covenant, and they will pronounce curses over the other one if they break the covenant, then a sacrifice of pure blood must be given to seal the covenant.

If you study the cross, and it's implications, and the words of Christ concerning salvation, damnation, and judgment in the light of covenants, which Paul says salvation is, then you can discern the truth about the issue of perseverance.

When Christ makes a statement like "I will never leave you nor forsake you." that is a covenant pronouncement of His part in the covenant, and it is based upon the joining together of two people to be one people, not just marriage mind you. It is conditioned upon the agreement of the covenant between the two.

So if you go through the scripture and examine everything about the covenant of salvation, in the light of what a covenant is, and how it works according to the order that God established with Abraham, these issues are not the same as how you view them.

Your perspective is held back by a set of doctrinal statements that do not take into account these things that are clearly visible throughout scripture.

So no, if sin does not cause all men to be in death spiritually from the womb, then and only then do the Five Points fall.

There are a number of things that cause it to fail, but my statement, I believe targets the heart of the issue, and addresses what you have said very directly, because the logical conclusion of my statement, if true, is exactly that the implications of sin you hold to are not accurate, and therefore begins at the base of the five points and disassembles the whole structure.

And again, you are stating nothing new, as the Arminians tried to argue the same, as did the Roman Catholic Church. Because both of these systems are Pelagian in thought, they deny man being dead spiritually, but rather wounded and able to raise himself up, you know like how Lazarus raised himself up by his decision in the tomb.

My goal is not to state anything so new necessarily, although I would love to find a piece of hidden truth that clears this whole discussion, and seperation of churches, that is not my pursuit, but just because it has been brought up previously, does not mean that it is discounted somehow. It maintains whatever truth is in it, because truth is unchanging, and eternal. If what you believe is true, then it will be proveably true, and if it is not proveable, then it is not true.

By the way, Lazurus was not spiritually dead, he was physically dead, and him being raised from the dead was not a demonstration of how spiritually dead men are, it was a demonstration to the Jews specifically that Jesus was God, if you know about Jewish culture, they did not believe a man was really dead until he had been dead for three days. That is why Christ did not rush to heal him, but rather as He says it was done for a sign. Because He himself was to be dead for three days, and it was for the direct purpose of causing the Jews to know and believe that He was truly God, and that both He and Lazurus were truly dead before they were raised from the dead.

There are no similarities, implications, or references to Lazurus being symbolic of a man dead in His sins.

R
roaringlamb Nov 13, 2007

Loved the "LIP" joke.

The two parties will state their part in the covenant, they will pronounce blessings over each other if the other keeps the covenant, and they will pronounce curses over the other one if they break the covenant, then a sacrifice of pure blood must be given to seal the covenant.

But the Covenant of redemption is not with us. It is between God and Christ. We benefit from it if we were "chosen in Him". That is why Paul could write that "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us", and not when we made the right decision, or that "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" (Ephesians 2:5)


sermonindex Nov 13, 2007


Logic wrote:
One always referes to the first part of John 3 when they talk about this so called regeneration
John 3 has nothing to do with regeneration/rebirth, John 3 talks about being "born from above", they are two totally different words.

Furthermore, "born from above" is γεννηθη ἄνωθεν.
"Born again" is actualy αναγεννάω, which is different from the word "regeneration" (παλιγγενεσία).

So, you have three words:
παλιγγενεσία = rebirth/Regeneration
γεννηθη ἄνωθεν = Born from above.
αναγεννάω = Born again

[b]Titus 3:5[/b] [color=990000]not by works in righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,[/color]
In other words: Not by good works, but according to His mercy, being rebirthed(new again) by the washing from sin with the Holy Spirits renovation, that is how we are saved.

[b]1 Peter 1:23[/b] [color=990000]Being born again(begotten again), not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abides for ever.[/color]
In other words: We have eternal life(born again) by incorruptible Seed(God as our Father).

The word "seed" is Greek "spora": a sowing, that is by implication, a descent from parents.
If one is "born again", one has God as his own Father now, and therefore, already save.

John 3 is saying one must be "born [b]from above[/b]" he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So, which word is that so called rebirth (being in limbo) in which one is an unsaved born again person?

To get back to the original question, I agree with Ccchhhrrriiisss, it's "all of the above".

These different words describe different aspects of the same thing. One word isn't nearly enough to describe such a wonderful thing that a person who is "dead in sins" (however we interpret the meaning of the phrase) should be made "alive in Christ".

It's a good thing to analyse words and see how they differ. Especially I thank Bro Lamb for the analysis of the Greek tenses etc. However, let's not get bogged down in meanings and differences, when all are describing this great salvation.

The analogy of childbirth is interesting, however.

The birth isn't because of anything that either baby or mother actually do of their own will, decision or deliberate action. The whole process is involuntary, although the mother can probably help or delay it a little (e.g. by whether she pushes at the right moments?)

So both views have a point. The New Birth isn't because of anything we can do of ourselves, our own will (as it says in John 1), yet there is life before birth, the baby moves and does all sorts of things even before it's born. And the mother's body also acts to nurture the unborn baby and to bring the birth about.

In personal experience it was, as it happened, very similar to a birth - the sense of intense pressure, being "squeezed" by a longing that became unbearable, so that I cried out to God. And then, suddenly out into the light and life and air of His presence!

in Him

Jeannette

B
BenWilliams Nov 13, 2007

roaringlamb wrote:

But the Covenant of redemption is not with us. It is between God and Christ. We benefit from it if we were "chosen in Him". That is why Paul could write that "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us", and not when we made the right decision, or that "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" (Ephesians 2:5)

I am afraid that you are mistaken in this point, both the old covenant, and the new covenant are between men and God.

[b][color=FF0000]Romans 11:27

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.[/color][/b]

See here, God, "to them", man and God.

[b][color=FF0000]Hebrews 8:6

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.[/color][/b]

Christ here is the mediator of this covenant, not the participator, outside of the fact that He is God, so the covenant is from Him to us.

[b][color=FF0000]Hebrews 8:8

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:[/color][/b]

Comparrison of both covenants being between God and man.

[b][color=FF0000]Hebrews 12:24

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.[/color][/b]

Again Jesus named as the mediator, or ambassador for both parties, man and God.


There is no question that the covenant is between man and God, just read the whole book of Hebrews, as it's writer dedicates himself to the issues of the covenant.

R
roaringlamb Nov 13, 2007

There is no question that the covenant is between man and God, just read the whole book of Hebrews, as it's writer dedicates himself to the issues of the covenant.

Ok, but what is man's requirement to fulfill the Covenant? Is it not faith?

Jesus did say, "this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many."

The covenant of works was broken by the first Adam, and the covenant of grace was ratified by the last Adam- Jesus Christ.

Now mediator means-
μεσίτης
mesitēs
mes-ee'-tace
From G3319; a go between, that is, (simply) an internunciator, or (by implication) a reconciler (intercessor): - mediator.

Christ is the reconciler because He alone fulfills all that is required for a man to be saved. Faith is the entrance into this work. This is why it is so offensive to God to put any stock into our own works as a means of righteousness.

B
BenWilliams Nov 13, 2007

roaringlamb wrote:

Ok, but what is man's requirement to fulfill the Covenant? Is it not faith?

Yes, he must believe, or he cannot partake in the promises of the covenant.

That said, each person in a covenant must fulfill their part of the covenant, neither party can fulfill the other person's requirement or promise, because that would constitute the breaking of the covenant. For each person has not fulfilled their part, and are guilty now of the curses that the covenant carries with it.

Jesus did say, "this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many."

The covenant of works was broken by the first Adam, and the covenant of grace was ratified by the last Adam- Jesus Christ.

Now mediator means-
???????
mesit?s
mes-ee'-tace
From G3319; a go between, that is, (simply) an internunciator, or (by implication) a reconciler (intercessor): - mediator.

Christ is the reconciler because He alone fulfills all that is required for a man to be saved. Faith is the entrance into this work. This is why it is so offensive to God to put any stock into our own works as a means of righteousness.

Now hold on a second, you passed over the two first meanings of the word there, and dove straight for the third meaning. (Which I might add is by implication only, and not by direct definition according to what you quoted.)

The definition of a mediator, as shown by the first two definitions, and also the third, is this:

A mediator is someone who speaks for both parties, that means, Jesus represents God to us, and He represents us to God.

There is no need to read further into the definition, the reason it says a reconciler by implication, is because a mediator works to bring both parties together, but that term again I say is only by implication, and not direct definition.

One last thing, you are making one major theological error here in this statement:

This is why it is so offensive to God to put any stock into our own works as a means of righteousness.

Faith, according to the scriptures is the opposite of works, they cannot be compared as even similar.

So if a man believes, or has faith as a requirement of the covenant, it is not an issue of works at all, because works are unacceptable to God.

You are attempting to say that if a man believes and has faith, he is excercising a fleshly work to get into heaven, this is an impossibility according to all accounts of scripture.

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