Show me Your Glory - Carrol

There was a recent sermon preached by William Carrol at Times Square Church titled Show Me Your Glory. It is a powerful message that came on the heels of Carter Conlon's sermon about angry watchmen.

However, there is an aspect of this sermon that has me confused. Mr. Carrol states that Moses misrepresented God when he had the Levites kill the 3000 of their brethren for their unrepentant idolatry.

If this is so why did God not rebuke Moses for this action such as when Moses was rebuked for misrepresenting God when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it?

Also, the Scripture records that Moses said to the Levites, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'Put your sword on your side each of you, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill his brother and his companion and his neighbor.'" (Exo 32:27) Moses clearly says this was the Lord's commandment, if this is not so why wasn't he rebuked for it?

Matthew Henry believed Moses was acting as God representative...

Moses, having shown his just indignation against the sin of Israel by breaking the tables and burning the calf, now proceeds to reckon with the sinners and to call them to an account, herein acting as the representative of God, who is not only a holy God, and hates sin, but a just God, and is engaged in honour to punish it, Isa_59:18...

-from Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible

In Christ,

Ron

However, there is an aspect of this sermon that has me confused. Mr. Carrol states that Moses misrepresented God when he had the Levites kill the 3000 of their brethren for their unrepentant idolatry.

If this is so why did God not rebuke Moses for this action such as when Moses was rebuked for misrepresenting God when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it?

Also, the Scripture records that Moses said to the Levites, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'Put your sword on your side each of you, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill his brother and his companion and his neighbor.'" (Exo 32:27) Moses clearly says this was the Lord's commandment, if this is not so why wasn't he rebuked for it?

I agree with you. I think Carrol is misrepresenting Moses by what he was stating. If we believe what Carrol was saying we have to believe that Moses was speaking in the name of the Lord falsely. Moses plainly said "Thus saith the LORD." If Carrel is right, Moses was lying.

If Moses wouldn't have done what he did, what would God have done? God would have destroyed them! Let's look at Deuteronomy to get another glance of the scene

Deu 9:8 \t Also in Horeb ye provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry with you to have destroyed you.
Deu 9:9 \tWhen I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, [even] the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:
Deu 9:10 \tAnd the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them [was written] according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
Deu 9:11 \tAnd it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, [that] the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, [even] the tables of the covenant.
Deu 9:12 \tAnd the LORD said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted [themselves]; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.
Deu 9:13 \tFurthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it [is] a stiffnecked people:
Deu 9:14 \tLet me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.
Deu 9:15 \tSo I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant [were] in my two hands.
Deu 9:16 \tAnd I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the LORD your God, [and] had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of the way which the LORD had commanded you.
Deu 9:17 \tAnd I took the two tables, and cast them out of my two hands, and brake them before your eyes.
Deu 9:18 \tAnd I fell down before the LORD, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Deu 9:19 \tFor I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure, wherewith the LORD was wroth against you to destroy you. But the LORD hearkened unto me at that time also.
Deu 9:20 \tAnd the LORD was very angry with Aaron to have destroyed him: and I prayed for Aaron also the same time.
Deu 9:21 \tAnd I took your sin, the calf which ye had made, and burnt it with fire, and stamped it, [and] ground [it] very small, [even] until it was as small as dust: and I cast the dust thereof into the brook that descended out of the mount.

Moses sounds pretty compassionate...

Exd 32:30 \tAnd it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
Exd 32:31 \tAnd Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exd 32:32 \tYet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exd 32:33 \tAnd the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Exd 32:34 \tTherefore now go, lead the people unto [the place] of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
Exd 32:35 \tAnd the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

I don't want to impute bad motives to Carrol, but a "check" did come to me while I listened to it. And that was "don't try to preach someone else's sermon with your own text." Again, I'm not trying to speak against him but that is what came to mind.

Moses said to the Levites, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel, ….. Moses clearly says this was the Lord's commandment, if this is not so why wasn't he rebuked for it?

Perhaps God was not dealing with Moses' anger at that time (or even other times that he was angry). Perhaps God had purposed to use Moses' anger to bring judgment on Israel, just as he used others, ex Samson, ungodly nations, etc.

One thing for sure, Moses, in spite of his remarkable meekness and faith, had a residual anger problem – and it eventually caught up with him:
He had a tendency to get angry when he experienced rejection. He was "hot with anger" when Pharaoh rejected his appeal Ex. 11:8. He was angry when the Israelites rejected his instructions for gathering manna. Ex.16:20, When they rejected his leadership and made an idol, "his anger burned and he threw the tablets…" Ex. 32:6

Later, his God-ordained authority was rejected when two hundred and fifty well-known community leaders accused him of making himself a prince over them and then failing to get them to the Promised Land (Nu. 16:13-15).

One time when there was no water, "the people gathered in opposition to Moses and…quarreled with Moses" Nu. 20:2,3. They obviously were still rejecting God's program. That's when Moses lost it and in a fit of rage, he struck the rock twice rather than following God's command to speak to it. He was fed up with the Israelites and for a moment, got his eyes off of God. He said to the people, "Must WE bring you water out of this rock." Nu. 20:10. Moses had taken the burden onto himself instead of regarding it as God's task.

In this episode, Moses had failed to accept the sinful condition of the people. He failed to leave the vengeance with God; he failed to trust God; and he failed to exemplify God's holiness. As a result, he received a judgment. He was not allowed to enter the Promised Land. From:[url=http://www.quiteexcellent.com/thewayback.net/articles/ANGER/title.htm]Why are you Angry? [/url]

Regardless of how the incident under question is interpreted, certainly, we can never use Moses’ anger to justify our own destructive actions and condemning words. And so Carrol’s point is not altered.

(Maybe he could have used another illustration.
Where else in scripture was the anger of a propeht destrctive?)

Diane

Regardless of how the incident under question is interpreted, certainly, we can never use Moses’ anger to justify our own destructive actions and condemning words. And so Carrol’s point is not altered. (Maybe he could have used another illustration. Where else in scripture was the anger of a propeht destrctive?)

Yes, the point of the sermon is well taken. I do pray that each of us would seek God's face and ask Him to show us His glory so that we might never misrepresent Him in any way, especially to prodigals returning to Christ.

What came to mind when you mentioned angry prophet was how Jonah simmered when he was outside of Ninevah after they repented at his message. I suppose his anger was only self-destructive (and perhaps gourd-destructive) but it is another case where man's anger and God's mercy are contrasted.

And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
(Jon 4:11)

In Christ,

Ron

What are the visible signs of someone working in selfish anger and someone in a "godly anger"? We know it's possible to have a "godly anger" as God himself is said to be angry and Jesus was from time to time.

Mar 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

PreachParsly wrote:

Mar 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

I just glanced at Wesley's notes on this verse.

Mar 3:5 - Looking round upon them with anger, being grieved - Angry at the sin, grieved at the sinner; the true standard of Christian anger. But who can separate anger at sin from anger at the sinner? None but a true believer in Christ.

quote: I agree with you. I think Carrol is misrepresenting Moses by what he was stating. If we believe what Carrol was saying we have to believe that Moses was speaking in the name of the Lord falsely.

I appreciate the examination of what is preached by placing it up against the context and the rest of the Word of God. There was far more liberty taken with the text and context than is warranted, and that is not just in reference to this particular minister, but that is far too often the case. The Word of God says what it means even if we do not always discern what it means. But it never means less than what it says. And in this case Moses was made to be the culprit “holding the ten commandments over their head” whereas the idolatry was almost totally overlooked. And those who operated from the same hatred of sin that is found consistently in the Holy God who did not even spare the Only Begotten Son when He became sin for us… they were made in this message to be acting without love. But love is consistently manifest in hatred of those things that are destructive of eternal souls.

Psalms 97:10 (KJV) 10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Again this is not just in regard to this particular messenger, but a general statement: Anyone anywhere can take the Word of God in hand and make statements that may be generally true, but we are not at liberty anytime to make the Word of God say what we want it to say to fit the occasion or to agree with some other preacher, or to promote some favorite doctrine. This Moses, the meekest man on earth according to God’s assessment of him who was one of only two that appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with the Lord was so beloved of God that when his flesh and blood brother and sister critiqued his marital status, Miriam was smitten with leprosy.
I believe it is a dangerous thing to try to psychoanalyse and put into the mouths of any of these heroes of the faith words that are not a part of the Holy record. I am not talking about trying to paint a picture of their character from the Word of God….. but even there, I believe we must be very careful.
Proverbs 17:15 (NKJV) 15 He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, Both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord.

Jonah

we are not at liberty anytime to make the Word of God say what we want it to say to fit the occasion

Since we find no hint to justify of Moses’ anger when he reacted so strongly, we cannot assume that we are free to do that. It is simply a fact, and no doubt part of God’s sovereign program. It may be that anger in Moses had stirred him to take vengeance in his hands. This response is perfectly logical in OUR natural minds, and so why would we assume otherwise? Whether Moses heard from God as he claimed, of course, is the question. He may have indeed, and maybe at the time God was overlooking any weakness he may have had in order to carry out his swift judgment. We cannot deny that Moses’ anger led to severe judgment on himself later.

…God's plea to leave vengeance to Him

This, of course is not merely a New Covenant idea. Rom. 12:19 came right from the Mosaic Law!

“Do not take revenge my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for IT IS WRITTEN, “It is mine to avenge, I will repay,” says the Lord.” (from Deut. 32:35)

“Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” Rom. 12:21

God designed a far more powerful way to incite judgment and potential conviction of the sinner: “If your enemy is hungry feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In so doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Rom. 12:20 According to C Keener “This may mean that one’s enemy may be punished all the more severely on the day of judgment” But also, such unexpected and assertive responses of care and tenderness towards enemies can be powerfully convicting. (Still the "returning prodigals" Carrol speaks of should hardly be viewed as our enemies!)

Note Moses’ change of heart after he received his punishment:

Moses accepted this judgment. After that he continued to faithfully lead the people. Later when they grumbled against him again, God himself avenged by sending poisonous snakes into their midst. When the people admitted their sin, Moses interceded for them “So Moses prayed for the people” Nu. 21:7.

By responding this way, Moses displayed a humble heart that was filled with love for the nation, in spite of their tendency to be rebellious. This compassionate response reflected of the heart of God.

It would seem that Moses ended up having a lot more mercy than Jonah ever did! Moses had grown in his faith in God.

Diane

I thank God for vigilant watchmen that are like Paul confronting Peter for the good of the whole body of Christ. I too was troubled in my spirit by this message in which there is no place for the man of God showing the anger of God like it is exemplified in both, The Old and The New Testament (remember Stefan angry words at the end of his preaching, and as it was alredy mentioned - the anger of our Lord Jesus himself - under the new covenant). But I did not write on this board, instead I wrote to a brother from here SI asking for an explenation or confirmation before it is posted on here, but I didn't get any response, so I will put my original feilings as a quote:

I did not want to write this on the board because it is negative and I would like to be wrong and change my mind...

I have listened to Carter Conlon's "Beware Of The Angry Watchmen" and I was very heavy and concerned about what he meant and/or about what other people might get out of it. But I did give it the benefit of the doubt...

But after I've listened to William Carrol's "Show me the glory" (evening sermon at TSC) I was very troubled. The outline goes like this: Israel sinned while Moses was receiving the Law and upon his return he gets very angry and "wins" a few people on his side and kills thousands of people that otherwise might have repented.Then he realized his mistake -"misrepresenting God" and asks of Him to show His Glory.

I do believe that a godly man of God will represent God's love, but also he will represent God's wrath (my understanding).

1. If Moses misrepresented God, by being angry and/or killing, than how come God never rebukes him for this incident. The only rebuke was when Moses hit the rock twice and his anger was personal ("how much longer do I have to...").

2. If Moses misrepresented God, than he was a false prophet and a liar because he said in
Exo 32:27 "And he said to them, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ˜Let every man put his sword on his side, and go in and out from entrance to entrance throughout the camp, and let every man kill his brother, every man his companion, and every man his neighbor."" This is not what Moses wanted out of anger, but the command of the Lord. How does William Carrol interprets this verse: if he doesn't make Moses a liar, than his whole sermon/argument falls to the ground...

3. If Elijah has to come and he brings fire or other bad things or another "angry" prophet("because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth." Rev 11:10) will they also be misrepresenting God's character???

I like TSC, but I have the feeling that they grow seeker friendly as time goes by...
I hope I'm wrong and that sermon was just an aberration from the normal, but I still can't believe they made Moses look like a liar. Actually he never cited that verse that puts all the action on God, so people that don't read their Bible will never know...

If you can, please send a response. I still hope there is a good explanation and I was overreacting.

Thanks and God bless you.

P.S. The revival Conference was a point of deeper relationship with God, and better understanding of His will and ways. I totaly needed this light from Him in this more and more grey world...

I hope nobody gets "angry" that some of us are more vigilent than others and it might appear as lack of love...

Your brother in Christ,
Cornelius Dragos

Killing each other literally is not how God deals with sin anymore.

I'm not trying to really dispute this, because I understand what you meant. I just wanted to point out that it seems when a covenant begins, then someone sins, death happens (Ananias and Sapphira). Maybe God does this so "great fear [will come]upon all the church" and people take God seriously.

Regardless of what someone says, God was going to destroy those people if it wasn't for Moses. Would it have been better for Moses to have just embraced them?

EDIT: Actually, those people were destroyed anyways. God said so, unless I am understanding the below verse wrong. This should be proof enough that Moses wasn't speaking falsely.

Exd 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exd 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exd 32:33 [b]And the LORD said unto Moses, [u]Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.[/u][/b]

he ordered the destruction of those who did not choose God's side, shows that he did exercise mercy before judgement, which is God-like.

I believe we will be seeing (and already have) swift judgment on our prosperity churches– not by a “Moses” handing out swords as much as by God letting the people experience the horrifying consequences of their false loyalties. Time will tell if I am correct.

Do you mean, we cannot assume we are free to 'justify' Moses' anger, or, we cannot assume we are free to get as angry as Moses' was?

seeker friendly

some of us are more vigilent than others

Diane

quote: I like TSC, but I have the feeling that they grow seeker friendly as time goes by...
I hope I'm wrong and that sermon was just an aberration from the normal, but I still can't believe they made Moses look like a liar. (I agree)

And the quote: whether Moses heard from God as he claimed...

Sorry but the quote above is hard to fathom for me in view of the position Moses has in the economy of God's plan for all of us... how could there be a question of whether Moses heard from God?

I have posted some objections to the earlier sermon on that same day that were “shot down” in a not too friendly manner, especially in view of the fact that it was my very first post on SI, but I did not think it prudent to respond since the implication was that I had to have been one of the “angry watchmen’” to have responded negatively to the message…. Be that as it may, the major objection in both cases (the morning and the evening message) was the loose treatment of the inerrant Word of God. And my objection was because of the fact that it was so apparently in striking contrast to the whole spirit of the Revival Conference. To take Paul’s letter to Timothy regarding “forbidding of marriage” as angry watchmen forbidding the return of the bride of Christ is a stretch to say the least. And to take the anger of Moses over the idolatry of the Children of Israel after he had just spent 40 days in the very presence of God as “holding the law over their heads” when it is the prayer of this man of God (if not then blot my name out) that spared them from being totally replaced by descendants of Moses (which by the way would have still been a nation that fulfilled God’s covenant with Jacob) is just taking far too much liberty with the texts.

And by the way, as far as “old” versus “new”: Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh ….“in the beginning was the Word”. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. To try to make some sort of schizophrenic God who was mean in the Old but learned better in the New is a horrible misrepresentation of God. (no accusation here, but just an inference from what seems to be the logical implications of some of the arguments) There may not be the judgments on the spot in the New that we find so often in the Old, (God has appointed a day) with the exceptions of Ananias and Saphira and a few more, but that does not mean at all that God has changed his mind regarding the Uzzah’s that take it upon themselves to tamper with holy things, nor does it negate the Word of God that clearly states
Psalms 7:11 - 12 (NASB) 11 God is a righteous judge, And a God who has indignation every day. 12 If a man does not repent, He will sharpen His sword; He has bent His bow and made it ready.

It is amazing to me that after centuries of revivals, the very revivals that we are seeking here on SI and the thousands upon thousands of messages by those who did not just talk about revival but saw the thousands of souls brought into the kingdom of Christ, that so many have learned a ‘better way’ . The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. There may have been errors by those who preached in the “Old Paths”, but distorting the Word of God to make folks feel better about themselves was not one of them. In fact it was “conviction of sin”, the very sense of just how undeserving of acceptance, and just how merciful and gracious God has already been to us, that made so many (as Pilgrim in Pilgrim’s Progress) flee from the wrath to come.

God help us that we do not go backwards, when this wonderful site that offers so many messages from the OLD PATH, by trying to justify the very kind of New Path preaching that led to the present mess we are in.

:-)
Clint

Apoligies,

I was whacking away in my Word to cut and paste while some of the issues that I mentioned were already addressed... I'm a little slower than most to respond... :-(

distorting the Word of God to make folks feel better about themselves was not one of them.

I regard Conlon’s warning as applicable not merely for the future. I am already seeing it! There is indeed a form of repentance going on: coming out of the “system” – and it looks even revival-ish. But it is not the kind of repentance that leads to the New Life.

Learning to discern this problem takes Spirit enlightenment. The unauthentic can look so authentic.

35And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

In God’s presence Moses’ anger was replaced with cries of mercy. Moses stepped aside and God stepped in!

33And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

I'm not convinced that Moses could have exercised this discretion in the sword rampage?

Diane

Quote:

Clint said: distorting the Word of God to make folks feel better about themselves was not one of them.

Diane said: Of course, this is not a risk only among those who are trying to make their churches more (non)seeker friendly, but also among those who use the word to justify their self-righteousness law-dependency, including their harsh methods of condemnation, and heavy legalistic demands.

The point is to not distort the Word of God period. God is able, through the Holy Spirit to speak comfort to whom comfort is needed, and rebuke to whom rebuke is needed when we simply do as Paul instructed Timothy:

2 Timothy 4:2 (NKJV) 2Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

And for the very reason that he gave:
2 Timothy 4:3 - 5 (NKJV) 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

And please my sister, do not assume anything about a person you do not know because of a denominational affiliation.
:-) clint