Judgementalism will eventually KILL this forum

[b]THIS IS LENGTHY, BUT IT'S FROM MY HEART... SO I HOPE Y'ALL READ IT AND UNDERSTAND WHERE I AM COMING FROM[/b]

There is a serious problem that is happening on this forum, and I'm going to deal with it very frankly.

Over the past few months I have noticed a disturbing trend on this forum. I have been informed numerous times that I am not a Christian because I do not believe a certain way about a certain doctrine. The following is a list of topics over which I have been told I am not saved...

1) I dont believe 100% in Calvinism... therefore I am not saved.

2) I do not agree that tithing is a New Testament teaching... therefore I am not saved.

3) I do not agree that Christian rock music is of the devil (tho everyone here should know by now that I do not in any way promote the Christian music industry!)... therefore I am not saved.

4) I have found myself in need of forgiveness for sins committed since being saved (i.e. I'm not perfectly sinless)... therefore I am not saved.

5) I do not agree that drinking a glass of wine is a sin worthy of hellfire... therefore I am not saved.

6) I do not believe that tongues are the initial evidence of being filled with the Spirit... therefore I am not saved.

....etc etc etc. This is not an exhaustive list, but you get my point.

On each of these topics I have been told either publicly on the forum, or in a PM that I must not be a Christian.

While I have talked about at length on this forum that certain forms of judgement are commanded of the believer, we are not in the position to judge the heart of anyone. But I see that happening on this forum at an alarming rate lately.

Some have PM'd me and asked why I havent been as active on here. This is why. I find it frustrating, I find it isolating, and at times I've even been hurt by it... and it takes a lot for me to admit that someone has hurt me.

A long time ago, when my wife and I came out of the deception that is called Word of Faith, we both prayed together one night that God would lead us thru the Holy Spirit into all truth, just as He promised He would do.

I told God I didnt want any fluff... I didnt want what Christian pop culture has to offer... I didnt want to live up to what other peoples ideas of what a Christian is... I only want the truth. Nothing but the truth.

What this usually means for me is that I find myself going against the grain... especially among Christians. The Church has done a really good job of adopting a lot of traditions and rules that have no foundation in the Word of God. Several times on here I've promoted a book called "Pagan Christianity", and I still recommend everyone get their hands on it.

Over the past week or so I've been involved in a thread about drinking wine. JulianSims called me out yesterday and claims to have left this forum because I did not tow the party line about wine. Instead of going along with the tradition view that drinking a glass of wine is a gross sin... I've been pointing out that the Bible NEVER says that.

So my brother's response was:

Yet over hundreds of posts i've read from you, Julian wants to convey that smoking and saying it's ok is not ok. Julian wants to also convey that drinking is not ok. Julian again wants to convey that so call christian rock music is not ok. Julian once again wants to convey that to much sports is not ok either. All these things i've mentioned are of the world and not of God. And i've read many of your post's. Hard to tell the difference if your in the world or in God or have one foot in the world and one foot in God, then using scripture to argue ( i mean debate ) one's point or to say there's nothing in scripture to back such and such. There are different levels of spiritual maturity but when one adheres to the things of the world and the things of God both, then we are no better than the world itself. We are to come out and be seperate from the world.

This was uncalled for.

Now, I dont want to turn this into a "bash Julian" thread... he's my brother, and I love him. But this is a perfect example of what happens when someone speaks the truth even when it goes against what most Christians have been taught to believe.

First off... I am very open about the fact that I am not perfect. I do sin. I do need to go to God on a regular basis and repent and be made clean again. Anyone who says they arent in the same boat is a liar, according to 1 John.

I dont hide the fact that I am not against the moderate consumption of alcohol. Why am I not against it? Because scripture is not against it. I am against "strong drink" and drunkness. Why? Because scripture is against it.

I will align myself with scripture, not a pastor (if that pastor doesnt agree with scripture).

Now, on this topic, some have come against me claiming that by my not condemning a glass of wine then I am promoting drinking to those who may stumble spiritually. Not at all. Paul defended the eating of meat that had been sacrificed to alters... but you wouldnt say that he was doing so at the expense of spiritual stumblers. You would say he was teaching truth.

Julian took me to task because I have been open about the fact that in the course of a 12 month period I may smoke 2 or 3 cigars... usually when camping or deer hunting. While I believe strongly that a smoking "habit" is a sin because the smoker is allowing the cigarette to rule and reign (a god), I do not believe that smoking 2 or 3 cigars in the course of a year is a sin. I'm not promoting smoking, I'm just being open and honest about what I believe.

Julian took me to task because I refuse to come out and say that rock music simply as a style of music is of the devil. Therefore, I'm of the world (which I believe is code for: not saved). Nevermind that I have had much to say about the pathetic shape that Christian music as a whole is in...

Let me switch gears... I say all that to say this... I am very open about myself here for several reasons.

I am who God made me to be. I will not put on a false pretense for everyone. I will not put on a Sunday morning smile and tell everyone how wonderful my life is. While God has blessed me with a pretty good life, the fact is... I'm Krispy, y'all. What you see is what you get, and I aint pretending for anyone.

You know what I find? I find that unbelievers, and people that I minister to in real life away from this forum appreciate that about me. I dont come off as some "head in the clouds" dream weaver of a believer.

I've know many Christians who put on a facade of having it all together and being this spiritual giant... only to see them fall. A friend of mine is a Baptist preacher at a small church out in the country. He's lost his entire congregation because while he was coming off as some super Christian... he was stealing from the building fund.

A guy I knew growing up was always coming around and preaching to my dad... he was Super Christian... but now he's in jail because the whole time he was putting on this act for everyone... he was raping his two daughters.

Last year I stopped by a local tent meeting after football practice... had on kaki shorts, sweaty t-shirt and a ball cap... and a preacher there mentioned to me after to the service that he would love to lead me to the Lord. I gladly told him I was already saved, and he responded that if that was the case then he expected me to be in a shirt and tie for the meeting the next night. I didnt. But guess where this man, who judged me by how I was dressed, is today... jail. Seems he was molesting a couple of 13 yr old girls in an orphanage he helped run.

Soooo... I may be a little too open and honest for some of you folks on this forum... but one thing I am not... and thats a fake.

I'm not comparing myself to those men, I am merely pointing out that what you get from me is honesty. If I dont agree with something, I'm going to say so even if it goes against popular belief. Truth is truth, period.

One thing I have never done on here is talk about the ministries that the Lord has allowed me to be a part of. Main reason for this is because I dont want to come off as boasting. But I think that I need to discuss this a little because I believe it is utter foolishness to judge me or anyone based on my beliefs concerning a couple of minor subjects. Especially on a forum like this where no one really knows anyone beyond what they write here.

Julian has come against my involvement in sports. What my brother does not realize is that this is a ministry God has called me to. I've lost count of how many young men God has allowed me to lead to Him. Some may have found the Lord after they aged out at my level of football, but my influence on them pointed them in the right direction.

Usually about 30% of my players come from stable, two parent homes. Thats it. The other 70% come from broken homes, "blended" families", etc. They either dont know their dad, or dad is living in another state, or dad is in jail. There is no good male role model in the home. This is my mission field, and football is the tool that God has given me to reach these kids.

So before I get blasted for being involved in sports... why not find out why I do what I do? You might find yourself railing against God.

On Saturday mornings I have a Bible study with inmates at a local prison. These guys have had several ministers do this with them in the past, but they seem to connect with me really well... an guess why... because I am open and honest with them. I'm not putting on any pretenses with them, I'm not a fake. And God has given me such a love for these guys, and it comes thru loud and clear. And one of the guys in the Bible study is in prison because he broke into [b]MY HOUSE[/b]. (He also had other warrents for which he was convicted as well). I led him to the Lord last year.

Twice a month I haul free baby food to a crisis pregnancy center. There is a local church that has a warehouse where they ship in baby food from Gerber, and then distribute it out. My wife will locate different crisis pregnancy centers, set up a time, then I'll hook up my trailer to my pickup and I haul some food to them. This is another ministry God has given us.

By the way... God allows me to be involved in all these things because he has blessed my business, and has allowed me to be self employed.

Once a month, sometimes more, my two older boys and I volunteer at the rescue mission feeding the homeless. We try to make a point of doing on Christmas day too.

And on top of all that, I am an elder in a group of elders overseeing a small network of house churches... and all the ministry that goes along with that.

Again, I hate talking about these things because I know that someone will see this as boasting. I'm not boasting, I'm merely trying to point out that you can not come onto this forum and judge the heart of another believer based on what you know of them on here.

Over the past few months I've been painted as a worldy, fleshly believe who is a drunkard and glutton because I refuse to go along with rules and traditions that are not scriptural. Funny thing tho... it's exactly what the religious crowd did to Jesus because He didnt do what they thought He should.

So how about we quit acting like fools, and stop sitting in judgement over our brothers and sisters?

Should we judge doctrine? Absolutely!

Should we judge actions? Absolutely!

Should we judge anothers heart? No!

We should all look inside and judge our own hearts.

I'll end this by saying that even tho I've been hurt, kicked, and beaten at times on this forum for standing up for what believe God has revealed to me as the truth... I still love you all.

And I know that I know that God saved this imperfect man. I have no idea why. But He did. And His Spirit lives inside of me, and He is guiding and directing my life. And He is leading me into all truth. I'm not there yet, but I know I'm on the right road... and boy, it's a narrow one.

Krispy

[b]BUMP[/b] (sorry!, but the forum is moving fast this morning, and I wanted to be sure everyone reads this. I think this is important)

Krispy

Thanx, bro. I dont want whatever hurt I have experienced to be the focus here. I want all of us to understand that we hold to many many beliefs that just arent found in scripture... and we need to seek what God says, and not what man says God says.

I guess truth is my only point. And love for the brethren, not judgementalism.

A good example of this is there is a member of this forum who attends Joel Osteen's church. I rail against Osteen pretty hard, yet this brother on this forum is truly one of my favorites to converse with here. I love him, and he loves me, even tho at times we definately dont see eye to eye, especially concerning his pastor.

I love this brother! I dont agree with him on some things, but that doesnt prevent us from fellowshipping one with another.

That poem is great, I think I will jot that down in my Bible as well. Thanx for sharing that.

Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Should we judge doctrine? Absolutely!

Should we judge actions? Absolutely!

Should we judge anothers heart? No!

We should all look inside and judge our own hearts.

Hi Krispy, I don't know you too well because I'm new to this forum. Your right we cannot judge others only their actions.You said we should judge our own hearts but the apostle Paul said:

1 Corinthians 4:3
3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

I just want to leave you with this one verse:

[color=0000FF]Psalm 119:165Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.[/color]

We need to be open to what the word says and if that person is wrong be willing to be open to discussion as the Lord leads you. If anyone is not open to what the word says the word says they do not love the law. People cannot judge you or you them but we must be open to the word of God. Praying for us all that we have love for one another.

Bless you bro. I'm sorry you've been having a hard time. It's character-forming though, and that shines through.

Also, if I may observe, your leading post is part of your spiritual ministry here, as part of the body on SI (in case you don't realise that).

Thank you for caring about us. :-D

I hope maybe I'll get to meet you next year, if you're willing.

I hope maybe I'll get to meet you next year, if you're willing.

If we have another revival meeting like last month's, I am hoping to be there. :-)

Krispy

Hi Krispy, I don't know you too well because I'm new to this forum. Your right we cannot judge others only their actions.You said we should judge our own hearts but the apostle Paul said:

1 Corinthians 4:3
3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

While of course I agree w/ Paul, I think my point was more along the lines of what Christ said about motes in the eye. We need to remove the logs in our eye before we can remove the sliver from our brothers.

And I have a lot of logs! lol...

Welcome to SI, by the way.

Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:

While of course I agree w/ Paul, I think my point was more along the lines of what Christ said about motes in the eye. We need to remove the logs in our eye before we can remove the sliver from our brothers.

And I have a lot of logs! lol...

Welcome to SI, by the way.

Krispy

AMEN! I get misunderstood alot, Im a very open person.

Thanks for the welcome! :-)

Heyyy brother Krispy
I have not been following the post, I just spotted it and read yours. I love your heart man, just telling it how it is and doing it with love. Can I suggest something bro, go out on your deck and have a nice big cigar :) I hope you feel the love brother, there is more of you out there than you think, keep on truckin and following His lead , I know you do and will..............Appolus

Everett... thank you for your kind and brotherly response. If we would all respond as you have I think a lot the things I'm addressing on this thread would be resolved.

Very quickly, let me say that I agree with most of what you had to say. You are correct about what Paul said concerning causing others to stumble. Let me say tho that many take this too far and wont even address this topc in the light of scripture because they're afraid that they might cause someone to stumble by being honest about what scripture actually says. So they try to reason that Jesus turned the water into grape juice, etc. See what i mean? But absolutely you are correct... we should be willing to sacrifice our liberty for the sake of our brethren. "The greatest of these is love." Thats the message there.

As to smoking, I think since I was raised in a state where for the longest time the two biggest exports were textiles and tobacco, my attitude toward that topic may be a little different than those from other areas... I don't know. Smoking as a habit is wrong, scripture is clear that it becomes a god. You compare tobacco to porn, but I think that's a stretch. Clearly porn is a moral and purity issue that cuts to the core of the spirit. Enjoying a cigar as a luxery when sitting around a camp fire is not the same thing.

Marijuana? Hmmm... not the same thing. Clearly the only reason to smoke pot is to get high. It doesn't go well with meat (...well, brownies and doritos perhaps). It is mind altering, and we are clearly commanded in scripture to exercise self control... and you cant do that and smoke pot. Not to mention that smoking pot is disobedience to civil authority... another sin.

As for what brought us out of WOF.... oh boy, long story. I've gone over that a number of times on this forum. If you cant find any threads where I discuss this, let me know and I'll go over it again.

Thanx again, brother!

Krispy

I've experienced the same issues on this forum, and I'm just about spent. I have enough drama in my life not to have to deal with internet-drama.

Yea, brother Ian... I think I'm in that place as well, but not willing to give up and quit like some are.

Stick around bro.

Krispy

Julian took me to task because I have been open about the fact that in the course of a 12 month period I may smoke 2 or 3 cigars... usually when camping or deer hunting. While I believe strongly that a smoking "habit" is a sin because the smoker is allowing the cigarette to rule and reign (a god), I do not believe that smoking 2 or 3 cigars in the course of a year is a sin. I'm not promoting smoking, I'm just being open and honest about what I believe.

If I may say this, and please don't look at this as judgmentalism.

When we open up to others about our personal indulgences, we are opening ourselves up for criticism. Because not everyone is like you or I. Not everyone can understand why. To the one who was saved from a life of alcoholism, and for you or I to say that an occasional drink is not a sin, to him it is a sin. Who has the problem? We do! We need to be silent on certain issues for the sake of loving him.

They say that we should be an open book, that is tricky and dangerous. The only one's that we should be that open too is our LORD and our wives/husbands.

For example, we wouldn't serve the meat of the word to babes. Then why try to serve our liberality to those who have not this understanding?

Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? [b]have it to thyself before God[/b]. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

To me, the romance of hunting and having a cigar sounds sporty.

There are only two mind sets here. One is coming from a religious mindset, the other is coming from a deliverance mind set. To the legalistic person, I could care less if they fall flat on their face, because they need to fall down so that the LORD can have mercy on them, a proud look and lying tongue He hates.

The other who has been delivered from substance abuse, I literally shudder if I find out that I had anything to do with his fall. For this cause do I keep my liberal actions to myself and I give thanks before the LORD.

I love you Steve!

When we open up to others about our personal indulgences, we are opening ourselves up for criticism. Because not everyone is like you or I. Not everyone can understand why. To the one who was saved from a life of alcoholism, and for you or I to say that an occasional drink is not a sin, to him it is a sin. Who has the problem? We do! We need to be silent on certain issues for the sake of loving him.

Comp... absolutely I agree with you. When I was open about those topics I fully expected criticism and disagreement. What I am concerned about is statements that a "true Christian" would never believe this or that, or participate in this or that.

See, then you're judging someone's salvation on something other than what scripture says. For instance, most everyone here knows I defend the KJV, and reject modern versions. However, one thing I have never done is say someone is not saved if they dont agree with me on this issue. And I consider this to me a very important issue.

But the fact is... we are not saved by which version we read. I have many brothers and sisters who are strong believers who read the NIV. I was saved in an NIV church.

See what I mean?

I will have to disagree that there are topics we should be silent about. Nothing in scripture is off limits. Even this is a tightrope at times, we can not let an untruth (drinking a glass of win is a sin no matter what) be propogated. Now, the way I have discussed it here may be open for debate... but an untruth is an untruth no matter how good it sounds.

But for me, the debate was not about whether a Christian should or should not drink... it was about man-made rules that are not found in scripture. I'm sure it comes across to some as defending drinking, but thats kinda hard to avoid. Some people are just going to misunderstand no matter how clear I am. It should never prevent us from talking about truth.

And the truth is... scripture never suggests that a glass of wine is sinful. There are clear prohibitions against drunkeness and strong drink... and warnings about the abuse of wine. But never suggests that moderate, responsible consumption is a sin.

Anyway, I appreciate your response bro, and you know I love you too.

Krispy