Ravenhill hanging out with "false prophets"?

Hello All, i just wanted to take a wuick opportunity to point out that Brother Ravenhill did speak at a holiness confrence with the so called False Prophets of kansas city. in either 1988 or 1991 Leonard Ravenhill spoke at a holiness confrence put on by the Vineyard church, the people there were, (john paul jackson, paul cain, john wimber, mike bickle, ect) now one thought posed to me was that Leonard Ravenhill was that even jesus did not avoid spending time with the pharisees in their synagogs. My response back was how can we know what Mr Ravenhills relationships with those people were. On the tapes i have from that confrence it would seem that Mr ravenhill has spent time with for sure John Wimber(calls him friend) and speaks also of mike bickle. i thought i would just throw this out there for discussion, since i told someone that i would.

just wanted to take a wuick opportunity to point out that Brother Ravenhill did speak at a holiness confrence with the so called False Prophets of kansas city.If anybody ever asked me to come preach at any of their churches, I would. No matter what denomination. No matter if they were Christians or not. Wherever somebody is asked to proclaim the gospel, I think it is usually wise to do so.My response back was how can we know what Mr Ravenhills relationships with those people were. On the tapes i have from that confrence it would seem that Mr ravenhill has spent time with for sure John Wimber(calls him friend) and speaks also of mike bickle.It'd be interesting to hear the tapes. I wonder though what his personal relationship with these individuals were. It would personally sadden me though if Ravenhill were friends of Wimber or Bickle, as I personally believe these men are false prophets.

Ravenhill did do/say some strange things in his later years, I'd have to know more about the situation to tell if he was rightly or wrongly involving himself with the people in question.As for a point you brought up somewhere else, about the focus of this website being against certain "false prophets" and their ministries; a lot of the teaching is against that, particularly from Art Katz and David Wilkerson. However, much of it is simply on Biblical repentance and revival (listen to some of A.W. Tozer, T. Austin Sparks, Paris Reidhead, etc).Personally I don't pay a lot of attention to the anti-"prosperity gospel" stuff because I've never agreed with it nor understood why anyone would fall for it.However, I believe much of the Pentecostal/Charismatic church has been won over by the world, pursuing worldly goals with worldly methods for worldly reasons. I don't have anything against them specifically (though most of them have fallen from a Holiness stance and thus are in particularly bad shape) since most movements in this country have gone the same way, but we should be aware of the problems at least to not fall into them ourselves.

If anybody ever asked me to come preach at any of their churches, I would. No matter what denomination. No matter if they were Christians or not. Wherever somebody is asked to proclaim the gospel, I think it is usually wise to do so.I am inspired by you saying this, Jimmy. This would be a hard thing for me - but i know it is true and necessary. I have such a hard time with "in name-only christians" and tend to judge and write them off. yet I am very open and accepting to non- believers. Glad you reminded me of this.in Him, chanin

Hello All again, It is important for me to mention that I do not believe it is wrong to speak about such things, as false prophets, or anyone group being off-base. It just seems to me that we can dwell on things for too long a time. An example I will share is from my own life, that i have shared before. In leaving the IC(institutional church) the group I was in tended to focus on the failings of the IC, at first I agree it was important for us to discuss why we were doing this and what we saw that was not God. But i do believe that we stayed there too long and stepped away from life, we finally got to the place where we realized that our focus was not Jesus it was the failings of the IC. There is no life in that we discovered that and it pushed us back to wanting to focus more on Christ than on the crap that comes from humans. Which everymove of God has expierinced. Blessings all hoping that The Holy Spirit reveals more of Christ in you daily:) Andy

I have a book written in part by Paul Cain and have some tapes from him as well and I believe he's a man of God. Although he has certainly has done some foolish things in his life, I believe he is a man of God. I've certainly done some very foolish things myself, much more than he.We certainly need discernment in these days. Much of the "prophetic" ministry is a bit out of control in my view but I'm not acquainted enough with Mike Bickle, John Wimber, and some of the other folks to comment.A true prophetic word always brings glory to God and exalts Christ. A false prophetic word edifies the flesh and exalts self. This is a synposis of how Wigglesworth defined the two. As Paul Cain said in one of the tapes I have, there is no new truth, only fresh revelation of existing truth.Just my two cents worth.

A good article dealing with Paul Cain can be found on this link:http://letusreason.org/Latrain5.htmIn Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

I have read much of what was shown on that link and if true, it's sadly off the mark. The book I read was written by R.T. Kendall, former minister of Westminister Church in England and an excellent author. He had many misgivings about Paul Cain as well until they met.If someone articulates something contrary to scripture, it's obviously wrong but don't we all see through the glass darkly? Where does one draw the line between a "false prophet" and a prophet, who was wrong? My grandmother was a very Godly woman, but she was plain wrong on much of their theology. Would that make her a heretic?I don't think so, but I could be mistaken. I hope I haven't veered too far off the topic. When I came back to the Lord, I quickly went through the WOF and prosperity doctrines and then I read some stuff by Jack Deere, Cindy Jacobs, Peter Wagner, & others and quickly moved on from there to those who seek Christ above all else.I certainly need more discernment and Godly wisdom.

Gideons,If someone articulates something contrary to scripture, it's obviously wrong but don't we all see through the glass darkly?You cited 1Cor 13:12 where Paul is in the middle of his treatment of the abuses taking place in the Corinthian Church. Paul is not saying that we will be in error from time to time, but that our understanding, while it may be correct, will grow by bits and pieces until it is complete. This is not to say that we won't make mistakes. Here is how Stanley Horton treats this passage:As a further illustration, Paul compares our present understanding and knowledge to the indirect image in a mirror(mirrors in those days were made of polished bronze). But when Jesus comes, the perfect state will be unveiled: We shall see no longer indirectly, but face to face. Now there are many things that perplex us. We are able to claim ony part of what God has for us. But the day is coming when "we shall see him as he is"(1John 3:2). Then we shall no longer need what is now "in part. We do know God now, but spiritual gifts only reveal bits and pieces.In other words, seeing through a glass darkly, doesn't mean that we will see wrongly, but that we will see only parts of the big picture so to speak. So, what we are given to understand, can be understood rightly, just not comprehensivly.Here are some links to some articles that will help you out:A Biblical Guide To Orthodoxy And Heresy This article does an excellent treatment of this issue and is worth reading all the way through(It's a long one).Paul Cain This article is very concise, but it offers many worthwhile links that provide some very usefull background information on Paul Cain.THE LATTER RAIN REVIVAL What I have read of this so far has been very good. Here is a small quote:Are you having difficulty discerning or receiving this "new revelation"? Then perhaps you have been interpreting your Bible in the "old way" -- comparing Scripture with Scripture, studying diligently to account for every jot and tittle and being careful to rightly divide the Word of truth. If this describes you, then you belong to the "Old Generation" which will not enter in to "possess the land" in the Latter Rain Revival. You may even be a member of a denominational church with its dogmatic confession of faith and statement of doctrine. These legalistic forms will be relics of the past in the up and coming "Postdenominational Church." Paul Cain advises that you "dump all that carnal stuff" (doctrine) and listen to what the "spirit" is saying to the churches through the Latter Rain Prophets and Apostles, who are dispensing many "new, sacred truths." Now, back to your Bible study. In your Bible you will want to change the book of "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" to "The Manifestation of the Sons of God." That’s right, we are not to be looking for the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him." Nope. That would be an "escapist mentality" to be repented of at once if we would be Overcomers. Instead, we should be looking forward to the glorification of the Corporate Church, which will become perfect and immortal here on earth before the Second Coming. In fact, as Jesus comes "spiritually and invisibly" to His Church, He will actually "incarnate" the Corporate Body and reveal Himself to the world through miraculous signs and wonders performed by the "Manifest Sons of God." I hope you find these usefull. By-the-way, I used to be caught up in all of the trappins of the WOF, and all it's associations.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Remember the mirror he is talking about is polished brass or copper. It had distortions and was not at all like our mirrors today. We still have to contend with the darkness in our own soul. That is why it is not clear what the God is trying to implement. It goes back to putting ourselves on the alter. Peice by peice God kills the old and births the new soul until we are in His image. Regarding Cain:Worst case he is wanting to control his members in a christian-like cult.Best case he is an apostle or prophet who is errent and impatient for people to renew their minds. Either one is wrong and deadly.smichael

If anybody ever asked me to come preach at any of their churches, I would. No matter what denomination. No matter if they were Christians or not. Wherever somebody is asked to proclaim the gospel, I think it is usually wise to do so.Hi JimmySome years ago I was preaching in India and was invited to the Loreto Convent, a Catholic order of nuns working with the poor. The meeting was about 20 folk, mostly nuns, a few priests and the rest 'lay' people. I was most uncomfortable. I was asking the Lord why I was there.I opened the chorus book and right next to 'all over the world the Spirit is moving' was a chorus which began 'Hail, to the virgin of Lourdes'. By now I was even more uncomfortable.Then there occurred one of those simple little prayer conversations. I said "Lord, what am I doing here?"He said "Can you love these people?"I said "Yes'He said "Do you want to be a blessing to these people"I said "Yes"He said "That's how I feel"It changed by attitude permanently. I cannot endorse some doctrines but if God opens the door I must step through it.

I said "Lord, what am I doing here?"He said "Can you love these people?"I said "Yes'He said "Do you want to be a blessing to these people"I said "Yes"He said "That's how I feel"Thank you for sharing that. I was feeling the same way about us having the concert at this "movie theater" church. I didn't even want to step inside. But the Lord reminded me, even through a friend that light must be brought into the darkness(and not all darkness is what we would call darkness- just where the truth is not shining)Though I don't agree with what they are doing and how they are doing things trying to copy the megachurch ways, etc... I know they still need to see and hear the real love of Jesus and His truth. I would have rather had the concert at a non- christian place than there. The Lord has shown me my error. That church is probably very damaged by this former pastor who had a gay affair (speaking of "false")- and has now left and started another church. They need a healing that only the Lord can bring. :-( Not to go on to much, but this seems to be a new phenomenon lately- this thing about pastors being involved with gay relationships and either quitting or leaving the church. It happened at my in-laws church too. :-o Can you imagine the spiritual damage?! The trust issues? Knowing that you've been led and taught by a liar and an immoral man?so sad.-chanin

Another person, Keith Green, was licensed in the Vinyard movement. I've never seen anything in Keith's short ministry before he died that could be related to the extremes of the Vinyard. His death was almost a decade before the KC prophet debacle. I wonder how he would have reacted to that.

One thing that has always somewhat concerned me with Ravenhill is that he doesn't seem to mind the fact some of his favorite Christian's through the years held some widely differing doctrine. It *seems* that Ravenhill didn't mind if folks doctrines were off, so long as they preached against sin, preached about the holiness of God, preached about the power of God, and prayed a lot, then it seems they were often accepted into his hall-of-fame of post-bible faith heros. So, to say that he might have been friends with folks like Mike Bickle or John Wimber does not totally shock me. After all, Bickle is famous for starting his 24-hour house of prayer in Kansas, and John Wimber is very proactive about "power encounter" style evangelism. I do remember Ravenhill in one sermon fondly mentioning the fact that somebody had started a 24-hour house of prayer in Kansas.

Another person, Keith Green, was licensed in the Vinyard movement.Green was sorta in it's early stages though. From the impression I received in Green's biography, it doesn't seem like it was a very big deal to him to be ordained by them. It almost seems like it was an honorary ordination of sorts.Also, I believe Keith Green was in some mixed company in the closing years of his life. John Dawson was a close friend of Green, and introduced him to the spiritual warfare idea of breaking various territorial spirits that reside over areas. John Dawson would later go and write a book on the subject. It always worried me, because frankly, that stuff has very-little-to-no scriptural basis to it, and is mostly the result of pragmatism... thus the how-to nature of such books.

The words and comments about saints like Mike Bickle and John Wimber both of whom i've met and have seen indisputable fruit from their ministries (in proportions many of us could only dream) prove what the apostle Paul warned Timothy would happen in the last days. "people will be lovers of themselves, boasters, proud, blasphemers, false accusers, having a form of Godliness but denying its power."Though I currently attend a Mennonite bretheren church (Jesus cares way less about denominations than we do--I have no mennonite blood in me!), my years at the Vineyard taught me some amazing things. Firstly, as Acts 10:38 says, "God annointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and with power." And he "went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the enemy because God was with him"! Note; not because he was God. He had already laid aside his divine attributes. (They taught me "I get to do the stuff!" And am I ever jazzed about it.)I can confirm this in another place. God has never lost the authority of the universe, correct? Jesus says, "all authority has been given unto me." God never lost the authority. He gave it to Jesus. Jesus spoke these words as the son of man. He commissioned us as a brother. Not as God.Maybe the only reason Matthew and Luke neglect the signs and wonders portion in the great commission (that Mark includes) is because Jesus was talking about the gospel. And the gospel of the kingdom is a gospel of power. Signs and wonders were a given. It was almost redundant to mention it.If Jesus only saw what he saw the Father doing, and only spoke what he heard the Father saying, and then if He taught the disciples to do exactly the same things, then why did the Fathers mandate to us change?? I don't believe in the bizzare personality change we have put God through to assume he no longer works in power.Paul told the Roman church that the gospel of Christ was the power of God unto salvation for all who believe. Nowadays we modify our doctrines based on our limited experience and miniscule faith. And while I agree that the biggest miracle of all is the forgiveness of a sinner who repents, I gotta ask, then where are all the little miracles like blind eyes seeing and deaf ears hearing and lame men dancing? I want to see some of the little miracles too! It doesn't really make sense to me that God only performs the the biggest one.We're gonna disagree, people! Big deal. Paul confronted Peter for being two faced. We all fail. William Brahnam went off track and believed some weird things late in life. So we don't discount an entire wave of ministry of the Holy Spirit because a guy goes awol! That doesn't even mean that the signs and wonders he did earlier in his ministry were not under the power of God. Are there counterfeit signs and wonders? Sure. But that means they are counterfeiting OUR REALITY! If there is fake money, it is just trying to get as close as possible to the real thing. Making counterfeit money is useless if the real thing doesn't exist.The following link is a message from Jackie Pullinger who ministers at Saint Stephens in Hong Kong. She is as close to a hero in the faith as I will ever let myself have. I want even to be like her in that she wants to be pretty much "unimpressed with anyone who isn't Jesus" to quote David Ruis about her. She has prayed, and seen rice come from heaven to feed a prostitute on the streets because she had nothing else to give her. I got the link of this very website.Cessationalist, I dare you to listen to the 90 minutes of her testimony. We don't believe in the power of God today because we have never tried giving till we have nothing else to give, such that the only way someone is going to have their needs met is if God intervenes. And I'm preaching to myself here!!!! We need to learn to minister the love of Jesus just as he did. Because he imitated his Father, our Father.https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=726&forum=34#3721Christians.....imitators of Christ, little Christs; Lets get it done! Matt 24:16 "This gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in all nations. Then the end will come." The gospel of the kingdom is a gospel of power. It "does not consist in words but in power". How much more biblical confirmation do we need?

The words and comments about saints like Mike Bickle and John Wimber both of whom i've met and have seen indisputable fruit from their ministries (in proportions many of us could only dream) prove what the apostle Paul warned Timothy would happen in the last days. "people will be lovers of themselves, boasters, proud, blasphemers, false accusers, having a form of Godliness but denying its power."Scamper,Friend, you are in error because you do not know the scriptures. This verse you paraphrased about the "power" of God has NOTHING to do with signs or wonders, but about a godly life. I believe you are attacking the wrong people when you try to fasley call us cessationists. I, for one, am a pentecostal and believe in all the workings of God. I also know that it does not pertain at all to the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is a changed life from ungodliness to godliness, NOT working miracles. If that were the case then men like Bickle and Cain would be unable to produce miracles.As far as Branham goes, yeah he believed some weird things later in life, but if you study his life, he believed some weird things at the beginning of it too.You are correct that we need a revival, but it HAS to be loyal to the TRUTH! A revival is not about people roaring like lions and barking like dogs and running around giving personal prophecies all over the place. We don't need people being taught how to "birth" or laying with their pillows up front "soaking", that's not revival, that's foolishness. Revival is a return to the holiness of God in humility and repentance! When people sought "signs and wonders" Jesus called them a wicked and adultress generation. And we haven't changed at all.Perhaps you should listen to a couple of sermons from Carter Conlon:Ministers of LaciviousnessA Warning To An Evil GenerationI pray that you will see that the power of God is not about signs and wonders, but about truth and righteousness.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

well, i am not all all surpised that this controversy has reared its head. you cannot please all of the people all of the time. Having heard the ministry of Ravenhill, Wimber, Bickle and Cain I believe they are all first and foremost lovers of Jesus and pure of heart in that sense. some day we will all know the answers - maybe the critics don't understnad Leonard Ravenhill as they think they do and are attempting to put him in a particular box - i think you 'll find that like his Master it will be very difficult to categorise any of the aforementioned brothers as anything other than sincere but human lovers of God.for my part I am more concerned at the inclusion of a man who is linked to politics which incite people to violence - Ian Paisley. I would welcome the site moderator/administrators comments on this one!