This needs attending to:

Please, if anyone would, defend this. This is very relevant and needs to be explained:

Knowing that the Lamb was slain(the atonement) from before the foundation of the world(Rev 13:8).
Some here on this Forum make this to be only for a chosen few(the Elect), where God is not ALL Loving and very finite in grace; Creating men that are the non-chosen few.
These must be hated creations, for the very purpose of being destroyed in hell, which is contrary to reality.

Some are claiming that man can not even do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.

Some claim that one must be "regenerated" first before he can even attempt to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.

This puts the blame on God for them not obeying the command of repenting and putting his faith in/on Christ.

The blame is on Him because one is excused from a command until one is able.

Example:
A family has a law that all members must take turns mowing the lawn.
Along comes Junior, a day old infant.
Is Junior included in the law to maw the lawn, or is he excluded until the ability is come?
This is a fact of reality and can not be discounted just because it is about God,
And must be kept in this anolgy's context.

You have God literally condemning Junior to hell for not mowing the lawn by not giving him the ability first and letting him willingly choose to disobey.
If a father did this in reality, he would be deemd a sadistic, devilish tyrant. Why isn't God the same if this is true?

Or, to put this analogy to reality, You have man with no ability to do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.
You have God condemning man to hell for not doing that which they can no do.

You make God wrathful and hating for the reason from His own doing.

You have God wrathful and hating man because He Himself made them blind.

You have God wrathful and hating man because He Himself would not let them obey by not regenerating them.

You have God wrathful and hating man because He Himself made the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" so that all mankind would be condemned in Adam before any one was born(Psalm 51:5).

You have God wrathful and hating man because He Himself made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted. This nature causes all mankind to sin and go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.(Psalm 58:3).

[b]Please explain[/b] How God is Justified in doing all this with out saying, "God is God and I am not, so I have no right to think any thing that lines up with reality and compare it to GOD."
Or
"He is god, he can do what he wants even though it goes against all that is correct, and who am I anyway to question God."

Again, [b]I am seriouse, Please explain this[/b] theology with out the above excuses.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=18309&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]Calvinism vs Arminianism and Wise Advice from Tozer[/url]

Today I browsed through a site http://www.freegrace.net and found some good resources as commentaries etc and read an article from which I was shocked and terrified from what I read. This man is giving Scriptures, and ignoring tens of others! I don't know what to say, could you imagine going to evangelize and saying, God loves you if you are elect, if not sorry, bad luck, you are created to suffer eternally into hell! And the excuse that you will evangelize because you don't know who is elected for me is nonsense! Why you will plead sinners to come to Christ? Why if your tears and prayers doesn't work and cannot change anything, why you should weep for lost souls? Maybe you should not? Are we robots? What is love?

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Here is the article:

[b]DOES GOD REALLY LOVE EVERYONE IN THE WORLD?[/b]

Does God really love everyone in the world? Modern day religion says that he does. All men like to think that he does. But what does the Word of God say? Does God really love all people? This is what God says in Romans 9:13 - "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Language could not be more emphatically clear. God never loved Esau at all; but he always did love Jacob. Is it possible that there are other people in the world whom God does not love? Ask the men and women who perished in the flood if God loved them. Ask the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah if God loved them. Ask Korah, Ephraim, and Judas if God loved them. Go to the unnamed multitudes who suffer the wrath of God in hell and tell them, "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life!" That would be a strange kind of love that shows itself by the fires of infinite torment in hell. No. God does not love everyone in the world.

But, blessed be his name, there are [b]some[/b] men in this world whom God does love. Among the fallen mass of humanity, there are many Jacobs, an untold number of men and women upon whom the eternal God has set his heart. Concerning all who call upon Christ in faith, all who are saved by his grace, all who are drawn to him by the Holy Spirit, the Lord Jehovah says, "I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee" (Jer. 31:3). God's love for his own elect is special, particular and saving. The eternal God will not allow one of those whom he loves to perish in hell. He will save them everyone. It is written, "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" (Psalm 65:4).

This love of which I am speaking is revealed only in Christ. "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (I John 4:10). "Hereby, perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us" (I John 3:16). "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him" (I John 4:9). If you are united to Christ by faith, God loves you, and your faith is the result of God's love. If you refuse to believe on Christ, you need not think that God loves you. "He that believeth not the Son shall hot see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). But, if you trust Christ, and love Christ, it is because he first loved you. Our love for the Lord arises from and is caused by his love for us. "We love him because he first loved us" (I John 4:19).

Children of God, rejoice in and give thanks for the love of God. God's love for his own is without cause. He loved us freely. The love of God is without beginning. He loves us with an everlasting love. God's love is without change. He loves us perfectly. And the love of God for his own is without end. He will never cease his own to cherish. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us!" May the love of God in Christ comfort and cheer your heart today.

Source: [b][url=http://www.freegrace.net/dfradio/dfrh006.htm]http://www.freegrace.net/dfradio/dfrh006.htm[/url][/b]

Tears_of_joy wrote:
Today I browsed through a site http://www.freegrace.net and found some good resources as commentaries etc and read an article from which I was shocked and terrified from what I read. This man is giving Scriptures, and ignoring tens of others! I don't know what to say, could you imagine going to evangelize and saying, God loves you if you are elect, if not sorry, bad luck, you are created to suffer eternally into hell! And the excuse that you will evangelize because you don't know who is elected for me is nonsense! Why you will plead sinners to come to Christ? Why if your tears and prayers doesn't work and cannot change anything, why you should weep for lost souls? Maybe you should not? Are we robots? What is love?

This means that our prayers to save the lost being answered are based on chance.

I [b]realy[/b] need my original post answered.

Dear brothers and sisters,

Please forgive me in this short response. I try to avoid this topic in these forums. My concern is that in these discussions we will reduce the deep and sacred mysteries of God to simple proofs and arguments that [b]we use[/b] to support our ideas. This seems very wrong to me. And unholy.

I don't want to do that.

I do think there is something for me worth sharing here, that has influenced my own understanding of this issue. Perhaps in the end, every man should seek to be pursuaded in his own mind of these things, and allow that, seeing through a glass darkly, our vision is as yet not perfect. I do not know.

What I wanted to share was this: that we are, all, no better than Adam. None of us, on our own, or in ourselves, could rise above him that was our father.

I share that in considering all of this.

I draw upon this passage, which I think speaks the same:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets."

- Matthew chapter 23 verses 29-31

Wish you all well,

Chris

Dear brothers and sisters,

I think too add here also, that justice, maybe divine justice especially, only demands what is right and true. It may not seem fair if we cannot pay what it demands, but isn't it justice still to demand it?

But also, mercy does not demand what is right and true and may not seem fair to the one who was wronged either.

Love to you,

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
My concern is that in these discussions we will [b]reduce the deep and sacred mysteries of God[/b] to simple proofs and arguments that we use to support our ideas.

This reminded me of:

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Thank you brother Chris.

ChrisJD wrote:
...justice, maybe divine justice especially, only demands what is right and true...

Logic,

"That which is is right and true, is not comanding that which is imposible..."

But what was commanded, first, to Adam?

Something else to consider:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

Genesis chapter 3 verses 22-24

Was this an act of mercy, or an act of justice?

[i]...and eat, and live forever...[/i]

Chris

jimdied2sin wrote:

Some are claiming that man can not even do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.

I can not eat worms. I can, but I won't because it is disgusting and I hate the thought of it.

Therefore, this Doctrine of Moral inability is totally made up only for the reason to uphold another doctrine that is probably held up on some other false theory.

Furthermore, reality would say that a true incapability gives freedom from the command. As my other analogy proves.
Another thing is that one thinks just because one has a wrong desire means that his whole nature is perverted; When in reality, it is his own value system that is perverted because of his affections.
There is no such thing as corrupt affections, only corrupt things to put your affections on. Ones affections are natural, it only matters what you put them on.
And to question why ones affections are on the wrong thing, that is because of a wrong sence of reality by not knowing the truth as my medicinal value of eating worms analogy shows.

It is no secret that men are the most vile and depraved creatures in existance.

Thanks be to God for Jesus Christ though! All glory to Him.

ChrisJD wrote:

Was this an act of mercy, or an act of justice?

[i]...and eat, and live forever...[/i]
Chris

A family has a law that all members must take turns mowing the lawn.
Along comes Junior, a day old infant.
Is Junior included in the law to maw the lawn, or is he excluded until the ability is come?
This is a fact of reality and can not be discounted just because it is about God,
And must be kept in this anolgy's context.

Why should we stay within a flawed analogy?

You must stay within the Biblical truth brother, and thus you must present the analogy as such.

If the the head of the family(as a one year old) was told that he must mow the lawn or die, and as the first one year old child was capable of mowing the lawn, but forfeited the ability to mow the lawn by willfully refusing to mow the lawn, then there is no injustice at all.

Then we would have to look to see if in fact the symptoms of death were in the family, and thus verify that sin was paying its wages to those who were bound to it.

What if God were to make Heaven attainable to only those who had never misspelled a word? Now we have all misspelled, and will continue to misspell words until the day we die(forget about any software, or anything artificial in this).

So now we need one who has never misspelled a word to put this obedience to our account if we are to gain entrance to Heaven, and we also need one to pay the penalty of our not keeping from misspelling a word, and we need one to maintain that perfection for us until we are delivered from our bodies that misspell words.

Brother logic, your view seems to be that the one who misspells only needs to snap himself into obedience, and start spelling perfectly, and that he is able to do so. This person only need one to clean up the slate of past misspellings, but leaves him to carry on the work on his own. Thus this man must keep perfectly the law of perfect spelling or else he is lost. But who pays the penalty for the misspellings?

See you leave out a vital part of the good news. That one has fully kept from misspelling anything ever, and has put that to the account of those who believe. He also has payed the penalty for the guilt of misspelling for those who believe. He also maintains their perfect spelling before the one who has dictated and demanded this perfect spelling.

This is why Christ must do all three of the things mentioned above, we cannot. You must realize that there are only two religions in this world, one where man is justified before God by works, and the other where man is justified before God by grace, and we know that Biblically a man cannot be justified before God by works, or else Christ has died in vain.

roaringlamb wrote:

A family has a law that all members must take turns mowing the lawn.
Along comes Junior, a day old infant.
Is Junior included in the law to maw the lawn, or is he excluded until the ability is come?
This is a fact of reality and can not be discounted just because it is about God,
And must be kept in this anolgy's context.

Why should we stay within a flawed analogy?

If the the head of the family(as a one year old) was told that he must mow the lawn or die, and as the first one year old child was capable of mowing the lawn, but forfeited the ability to mow the lawn by willfully refusing to mow the lawn, then there is no injustice at all.

Your theory of the "Federal Headship of Adam" is bogus.
You have God wrathful and hating man [b]because He Himself made the law[/b] of "Federal Headship of Adam" so that all mankind would be condemned in Adam before any one was born(Psalm 51:5).

You have God wrathful and hating man because He Himself(God) made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted. This nature causes all mankind to sin and go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.(Psalm 58:3).
(I do not agree to the usage of theses Psalms here, but only use them as you do)

What if God were to make Heaven attainable to only those who had never misspelled a word? Now we have all misspelled, and will continue to misspell words until the day we die(forget about any software, or anything artificial in this).

Brother logic, your view seems to be that the one who misspells only needs to snap himself into obedience, and start spelling perfectly, and that he is able to do so. This person only need one to clean up the slate of past misspellings, but leaves him to carry on the work on his own. Thus this man must keep perfectly the law of perfect spelling or else he is lost. But who pays the penalty for the misspellings?

I made my self a sinner by my verey fisrt sin, that is what made me spiritualy dead. Adam did not!
The only way to obey God is to Come to Him which all men are able to do.
This makes a relationship with HIM that grows the fruit of righteousness which are good works.

In other words, a relationship with Christ changes ones life, put a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that one does.

In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in you.

You are the one who says that God hates many of mankind and does not want all men to be saved.

See you leave out a vital part of the good news.

You must stop thinking that I preach the law, I evidently do not.

Logic,

In regards to Genesis 3:22

I think you are right. It would have been terrible for them to live like they now were, eyes open, to know good and evil, to be like God, to have all the demands of living as God upon them, the demands of his righteousness which having such life required... to live forever like that, under His curse.

But one such would come, who could do it, who could have such knowledge, and yet live...

And it was written of Him

[i]...by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many[/i]

Chris

All messages of importance
must have a firm
foundation in Christ. Even
though the Old Testament
reveals Christ in types and
shadows, this is not a good
foundation for revelation
knowledge. Types are left to
the imagination of the
teacher and to his cleverness
to draw something of
Christ from them. Shadows
are something that can flee
away. These methods do not
make a good foundation for
spirit revelation.
We have a saying in the
Christ-life message, “You
must start out right to end
right.” Truer words were
never spoken. Most modern
preaching starts from
the Old Testament or the
four Gospels, but none of
these have the revelation
of the mystery that was
revealed to Paul. by Frank Stigal.

By me and the Word of God:
John 3:1-4 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

This is the mystery Nicodemus did not understand.
This is the Mystery Paul speaks of instead of the statement "Born again".
This is the Mystery of being Born again by a complete new Father, Not earthly but heavenly, a new creature in Christ.

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Col 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Christ liveth in me making me a new creature, outside of the old testament passed away.

Phillip

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

dear saints i do believe that a major part of our problems with how God operates lies in our own secret vanity. if there is a problem with anything concerning God, we can be sure that the problem isn't with Him but it rests with us. We measure God by our own standard, or try understand Him with out own understanding and the tell tale sign of that is when we find Him unfair, confusing or in any way uncomfortable fot us...God doesn't do what we would do if we were Him...that is our problem, that is the standard we use to measure God, if i were God, i'd not have done this or that, or i'd not have asked this and that, vanity...

That God asked, no told Adam not to mess with that tree says to me obedience wasn't beyond Adam's reach, he did obey for a time. that one of the consequences of that is we are unable to be Saved unless God moves, that is God has already called and chosen the Elect (i take a literal view of Romans 9) is His Divine Prerogative so unless you're Him, you ain't God no business asking the potter why He made you thus...

i remember when Job wanted to get into God's Face about all the drama going on with him and God asked him some questions to which even today we only have answered a few. so like God said "who is this who darkens my counsel with words without knowledge...where were you when I...?" if you weren't there...well...like Job said "uh, uh, uh..."

Some have argued that if God has already chosen then why evangelize, coz He said so, furthermore, he who is among the Elect will not reason in any other way so as to conclude that there is no need to evangelize...no way. it has been presented that this is somehow unfair, he man look, if God has spoken about this and decided what He's going to do, you can jump up and down all you want but it won't mean squat because it is His standard by which we will all be Judged.

the scripture is plain, God chose Isaac, then He chose Jacob over Esau...before either one could do anything...that is Divine Prerogative folks...Esau gave up his birthright because God had already determined before Esau ate that stew that Jacob would have the birthright...in the end it all rests on Him, like Paul said, it ain't about he who runs or wills, but it's about He who shows Mercy. i understand this insamuch as i know i am a vessel of Mercy and as such i'm out looking for other such vessels.

bro Logic, i love you in the Lord but if you want answers to what you asked, you'd better ask the Author. some of us know bits and pieces, enough for us to move along without bugging out over it like you are but unless He brings you to that knowledge which sets you at ease, you'll be running around trying to figure it out all your life and never get anywhere.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.