In God We Trust

Peacemaker wrote:
Should Christians advocate and argue political agendas such as striving to post the "In God we Trust" motto in public schools, in local municipalities, and/or do such things as post the ten commandments in court rooms?

Not all of us here are American, so maybe your question could be rephrased to allow the rest of us to join in? ;-) For example, "Should Christians be involved in Politics?"

The erosion of, and direct attack on our Christian heritage is happening in other Western nations too.

For a long time I would, like Jordan, have answered "no" to the question of political involvement, or being active in things such as you mention. Partly because of having a negative interest in politics, partly because of being brought up in "old school" evangelicalism, where it was considered that we should concentrate on more "spiritual" matters.

However, wouldn't our nations be in an even worse state than they are if there were no Christian politicians? They may be ignored, ridiculed or passed over for promotion, but they are salt and light nevertheless.

And, whether or not we feel led to have any direct political involvement, we are at least [i][u]commanded[/u] to pray[/i] for our leaders.

2Timothy 2:1-4 [color=990000] 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 [u]For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour[/u];
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.[/color]

in Him

Jeannette

Perhaps the question to be considered is more the "what" and "how" than the "if" of our involvement?

Any action in our nation's affairs has to spring from much prayer, and seeking God for what we should do. Otherwise no amount of political activity or agitation for right standards, the 10 Commandments in court rooms etc will do any good.

(By the way, having the 10 Commandments in courtrooms is, as far as I'm aware, unknown in the UK - we are probably even further down the line of rebellion against our Christian heritage than you!)

How did the saints of Biblical times get involved? There is little recorded in the New Testament, but this doesn't mean that Christians didn't get involved, only that the New Testament was more concerned with other issues.

But the early Church was founded on Judaism and familiar with on the OT scriptures, (most of the New testament wasn't written yet!) which do give examples of political involvement - in government and the political scene in general.

There were statesmen and leaders, such as Joseph, Nehemiah and Daniel, in the midst of pagan nations, who stood for the Lord.

And the prophets, who often had no status in the eyes of rulers, boldly confronted those same rulers with the Truth about social injustices and other sins. Some lost their lives as a result.

Blessings

Jeannette

HomeFree89 wrote:
Hi Jeannette,

You're right, there are "politicians" in the OT, but I think there's a big difference between those and today's modern politicians.

People like Joseph and Daniel were placed there by God for a purpose. They weren't there because they thought believers should be involved in politics.

Don't you think that God could also send some into politics [i][u]for a purpose[/u][/i] in these days too?

Also, the way government is run and handled today makes it almost impossible to be involved and not compromise. Joseph fled when temptation to sin and compromise was presented to him and Daniel went right against the king's law.

I don't know how it's run over in the UK, but many bills that are passed here have riders that would make someone who's voting on the main biil compromise. It may be a good bill, but then a rider is attached which may give license to some sin, etc.

If the Party in power in the UK has a bill they want to force through, they will put a "Three-line Whip" on it. The "whips" are the Party enforcers. If it's a three line whip, apparently the MP's (members of Parliament) are sent a message that they MUST attend, and vote on the issue, and the message is underlined [i]three[/i] times, (there's also a two-line whip, not quite as mandatary), meaning they HAVE TO vote according to their party's policy, whether they want to or not. If the vote is especially important and likely to be close, the Whips will personally visit MP's who might vote against in order to persuade them.

There have even been tales of whips threatenting MP's who try to refuse. Not physically (at least I should hope not!) but by threatening to expose some shady goings-on in their past. In other words, blackmail.

Anyone who disobeys the three-line whip is punished by being excluded from taking part in government for a while (like a football player being suspended for misbehaviour). If they persist in rebelling they may be excluded from the party and lose their seat in government altogether.

I don't think it's wrong to make an appeal and present the truth to our leaders, but we, as Christians, shouldn't get so consumed with "being light" that we neglect the other things Christ commanded us to do. It probably shouldn't be our main concern, is what I'm trying to say. :-)

Jordan

I was just listening to an interview with Joshua C Rosenberg, who was a White House aide at one time, and has written several Christian novels based on his experience and insight into Biblical prophecy and world events. Many of you would have heard of him. One was written just [i]before[/i] 9/11, and is about a plane attack almost the same as actually happened!

(http://www.crossroads.ca/broadcas/rosenberg.php)

Blessings

Jeannette

Coin has two sides,both are valid.

rowdy2 wrote:

How can you know who is speaking the truth in a secular society? Western civilization has lasted in spite of the abandonment of its founding principles, not because of its adoptive secular principles but by the will of Almighty God. Don’t look back, “keep your eyes on Jesus and the things of this world will grow strangely dim”..

You name the three worst presidents in the U. S. A. in my life time, I voted for two of them.

That's another good point that deserves to be considered carefully - certainly made me think.

I mentioned on a previous thread, about the experience of a friend, who met a local (staunchly Evangelical) church elder just before a General Election. My home area was very strongly Labour (left wing, but not extreme left wing; though in recent years the distinctions between the two main parties have become very blurred). They naturally spoke of the election. Eddie said, "What are you voting?" The man said, "Labour, of course." Eddie said, "Have you prayed about it?"

And the man looked at him as if he was mad...

All we can do is pray who or what party we, as individuals, should vote for, vote as we believe the Lord wants, (even if it seems a bad idea to us!) and trust Him with the result - even if you turned out to have voted for a disaster!

I quoted 2Timothy, but there are other relevant scriptures. Remember also that Nero was probably in power when this was written!

2Timothy 2:1-4
[color=990000] 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 [u]For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour[/u];
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.[/color]

In the Old Testament wicked rulers, (and some not so wicked), are seen as being mere tools in God's hand.

Assyria for example:

Isaiah 10:5-7

[color=990000]O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.[/color]

Daniel 4:17

[color=990000]17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that [u]the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men[/u].[/color]

Maybe the last few presidents, prime ministers etc of our nation could have been qualified as "the basest of men", but they were still appointed by God, and He decides how long their stay in power.

Yet I believe we [i]should[/i] still vote. Although it's sometimes difficult to decide who is the least "base". Without clear guidance, we should obviously vote for the one who seems least likely to make a mess of things...

Maybe this comes into the same category as prayer: If God is in control of all things and does what He wants, then why pray - what's the point? Yet He clearly wants us to. It's the same with voting (if we live in a country where there is still a truly free vote, which might not last as long as we believe and hope)

And sometimes God uses those who don't know him to fulfill His good purposes. A rcent times example was Winston Churchill, through whom God saved us from the Nazis. I haven't heard any evidence that he was ever born again, but God used him.

In the Old Testament an obvious example of this principle is Cyrus. In Isaiah it specifically says that Cyrus didn't personally know God, yet he is called "my shepherd"!

2Chronicles 36:22f
[color=990000] Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up...[/color]

Ezr 1:1
[color=990000]
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.[/color]

Isa 44:28
[color=990000] That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.[/color]

Isa 45:1
[color=990000]Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut...[/color]

Blessings

Jeannette

HomeFree89 wrote:

LittleGift wrote:

Don't you think that God could also send some into politics [i][u]for a purpose[/u][/i] in these days too?

Yes, I believe God could do that, but I don't think many have been really sent by God.

Jordan

Sadly, you are probably right :-(