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Theology

The Fall of Adam Commentary (NOT Augustinian!)

sermonindex Nov 20, 2007

[b]PHYSICAL AND SPIRITUAL DEATH FROM ADAM’S FALL
&
PHYSICAL AND SPIRITUAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST[/b]

[i]Commentary on 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 & Romans 5:12-21[/i]

By Jesse Morrell

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[b]PHYSICAL DEATH & PHYSICAL LIFE [/b]

Physical death in Adam and physical life through Christ contrasted:

[b]1Cor 15:21-22 “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” [/b]

Adam brought physical death upon all of his posterity when he was removed from the Garden of Eden where the tree of life was. Man needed to eat from the tree of life to live, which is why the tree was in the garden in the first place. But without it, the body was subjected to death, and would inevitably die. So, when Adam was removed from the garden on account of his sin, all those who were seminally in his loins (so to speak) were removed as well.

“And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man: and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.” (Genesis 3:22-24)

So, infant children, who are morally “innocent” (2 Kings 21:16; 24:4; Joel 3:19) and have not yet “done anything” morally “good or evil” (Romans 9:11), are subjected to physical death as a consequence of Adam’s sin since they are born outside of the Garden of Eden. But since infant children have neither guilt (because they are innocent) nor any sin (they have committed none), infant children do not go to Hell but to the Kingdom of God if they die in infancy (2 Samuel 12:23; Matthew 19:14), since they have no sin to be punished for.

But now through Christ, we have a physical resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:22), a glorified body (1 Corinthians 15:42-45, 52-55), and access to the tree of life (Revelation 2:7; 22:2, 14) and to the water of life (Revelation 22:17).

We inherit a body from Adam that is subjected to death, but we will receive a body from Christ which is not, as it is a body capable of living forever. Adam brought physical death, and Christ has brought the physical resurrection. Because of Adam, the tree of life was removed from all men, and all men, in consequence, are destined to die. But through Christ comes the resurrection and access to the tree of life, and, in consequence, the righteous will have eternal life. Christ restores what Adam lost.

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[b]SPIRITUAL DEATH & SPIRITUAL LIFE[/b]

Spiritual death through Adam and spiritual life through Christ contrasted:

[b]ROMANS 5:12:

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin . . .”[/b]

Adam brought sin into the world by his own free will, and spiritual death comes by sin. Adam became dead in sin (separated from God), just as God said he would, the very day that he ate from the tree. Though Adam physically died many years later, on account of being removed from the garden that had the tree of life, Adam spiritually died the same day he sinned against God.

“In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Genesis 2:17). Since God cannot fellowship with or dwell with sin, Adam spiritually died, and became spiritually separated from God, the day he sinned. “And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died” (Genesis 5:5); that is, Adam eventually physically died since he was removed from the tree of life (Genesis 3:22-24).

[b]“. . . and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”[/b]

Spiritual death comes by sin, so all who choose to sin become spiritually dead. Because God cannot have fellowship with those who are in sin, those who are in sin must be separated from God, and thus they are spiritually dead in their sins.

“For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died [spiritually and morally, since Paul was still physically alive to write this]” (Romans 7:9).

“But sin . . . working death in me . . . .” (Romans 7:13).

“. . . alienated and enemies [relationally] . . . by wicked works” (Colossians 1:21).

"And you, being dead [spiritually and morally, since they were still physically alive] in your sins [not Adam’s sin] . . . ” (Colossians 2:13).

“But your iniquities [not Adam’s] have separated between you and your God [brought spiritual death], and your sins [not Adam’s] have hid His face from you [separation]” (Isaiah 59:2).

[b]ROMANS 5:13

“(For until the law sin was in the world . . . ”[/b]

The Law of Moses did not originate right and wrong. Rather, it declared right and wrong, since sin existed before the law was given. The law reveals what sin is, to point it out.

“Was then that which is good [the law] made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working [spiritual] death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful” (Romans 7:13).

“I had not known sin, but by the law . . . ” (Romans 7:7).

[b]“ . . . but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”[/b]

Just as faith is imputed [accounted as] righteousness (Romans 4:11), disobedience to the law is imputed [accounted as] sin. The Bible says, “to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin” (James 4:17).

And sinning against known law brings spiritual death. “For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died [spiritual and moral death]” (Romans 7:9).

[b]ROMANS 5:14

“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses . . . ”[/b]

In between Adam and Moses was the time when the law was not yet written on stone tablets. Only the law of nature existed. Nevertheless, men were spiritually and morally dead in their sins because they violated the law of their own conscience; they did what they knew to be wrong.

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shown it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; . . . they glorified him not as God” (Romans 1:18-21).

“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another” (Romans 2:14-15).

So, before the Law of Moses was given, spiritual death still reigned, since the law of nature, the law of their conscience, was being violated.

[b]“ . . . even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”[/b]

Spiritual death reigned from Adam to Moses unto all men who sinned, even if their sin was not in the likeness of Adam’s transgression. For Adam transgressed a commandment; but those in between Adam and Moses acted contrary to the law of nature.

God must be separated from all sin (Hebrews 7:26; 1 John 1:5; 3:5). Therefore, all sin must lead to spiritual death. “Greater sin” (John 19:11), committed by those who have greater knowledge, or lesser sin, committed by those with lesser knowledge, must still separate a man from God. So those with “greater sin” or lesser sin are still dead in their sins. (The relation of knowledge to the measure of guilt is discussed further on.)

Those who transgress a commandment, like Adam did (“Adam’s transgression”), become dead in sin. And those who violate the law of nature, like the Gentiles did, become dead in sin. Death reigned from Adam to Moses, upon those who did not have the Ten Commandments, because they violated the law of nature.

[b]ROMANS 5:15

“But not as the offense, so also is the free gift.”[/b]

They are not similar in nature, value, design, or result. The former was from disobedience; the latter was from obedience. The former resulted in death; the latter resulted in life. Adam is contrasted with Christ, and their effects are polar opposites. One brought life and justification, while the other brought death and condemnation. The one was only a leading, influence, and example; the other brought a leading, influence, and example, but it also brought the power to forgive past sin, so it is “much more.”

[b]“For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more through the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.”[/b]

Adam’s disobedience brought sin into the world. Spiritual and moral death comes to those who choose to join in Adam’s rebellion. So, many who are dead in their sins (“be dead”) are dead as a result of Adam’s leading into sin, example of sin, and lasting influence to sin. But now the gift of eternal spiritual life [knowing God (John 17:3)] is offered through Christ to all those who are spiritually dead in their sins. But the offer of a gift must still be voluntarily received and accepted by the one to whom the gift is offered.

Those who choose or decide [by free will] to follow Adam are spiritually dead in their sins; that is, they are separated from God relationally (Isaiah 59:2; Romans 7:9, 13; Colossians 2:13), without any righteousness (Romans 6:20), and they will receive eternal death – the punishment of hellfire (2 Thessalonians 1:9; Revelation 21:8). But those who choose or decide [by free will] to follow Christ will be spiritually alive; that is, they will be reconciled unto God relationally (John 17:3; Romans 5:10; 2 Corinthians 5:18; Colossians 1:21), without sin (Romans 6:7, 11, 13; 8:10), and they will receive eternal life in the world to come (Mark 10:30).

[b]ROMANS 5:16

“And not as it was by the one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.”[/b]

Adam and Christ are once again contrasted; the effects of their works are different. The influence of Adam’s sin resulted in judgment unto condemnation, while the effect of Christ’s obedience resulted in a free gift unto justification.

Notice it does not say that the sin of one condemned them all, but that the sin of one led to the condemnation of them all.

Because both condemnation and justification are conditional, neither is unconditionally universal. Condemnation is conditional upon personal transgression, while justification is conditional upon a personal decision to accept the gift by repenting and believing. Men are condemned for their own personal sins (1 Corinthians 6:9; Revelation 21:8), and reconciliation requires a personal choice (2 Corinthians 5:20).

[b]ROMANS 5:17

“For if by one man’s offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”[/b]

Through the influence of one man’s disobedience, spiritual death reigned. How much more would grace and righteousness reign through Christ to those who would choose and decide to receive it.

[b]ROMANS 5:18

“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation . . . ” [/b]

The influence and effects of Adam’s sin led unto the condemnation of all men, upon all those who choose to sin by their own free will. The relation between Adam’s sin and men’s condemnation is that Adam’s sin provided the circumstances of men’s temptation and the occasion for men’s sins. The result of the influence of Adam’s offense brought judgment and condemnation to all men, since the result of his influence is that all have chosen to sin.

Consider just one of the effects of Adam’s sin. Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17), and all of his descendent's inherit this knowledge called the conscience (Romans 2:14-15). All men are accountable to the knowledge that they have, and all are judged according to that knowledge (Matthew 11:21-22; John 9:41; 15:22; James 4:17). So, judgment is according to knowledge, which leads to condemnation, when each man gives an account for his own personal deeds.

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deuteronomy 24:16).

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin” (2 Kings 14:6).

“The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin” (2 Chronicles 25:4).

“What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge? As I live, says the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:2-4).

“Yet say ye, Why? does not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him” (Ezekiel 18:19-20).

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his [not Adam’s] works” (Matthew 16:27).

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he [not Adam] hath done, whether it be good or bad” (2 Corinthians 5:10).

“ . . . whose end shall be according to their [not Adam’s] works” (2 Corinthians 11:15).

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his [not Adam’s] work shall be” (Revelation 22:12).

[b]“ . . . even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”[/b]

Through Christ’s obedience of shedding His blood as an alternative, replacement, or substitute for our punishment, the free gift of reconciliation is offered unto all men unto justification of life. Because Christ has shed His blood, our punishment of hellfire can be dispensed with (Hebrews 9:22), our debt can be pardoned (Matthew 6:12; 18:27; Luke 7:42), and we can have an eternal relationship with God. Through Christ, men can be justified (that is, reckoned righteous and not have their past sins accounted against them (Romans 4:6-9)), which is the same thing as saying they can be forgiven, so they can enter into the spiritual life of knowing God (John 17:3).

[b]ROMANS 5:19

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners . . . ”[/b]

Through Adam’s leading, influence, and example, men have voluntary chosen to become sinners of their own free will. Adam has provided the circumstances of temptation and the occasions to sin through his leading, influence, and example, though each man is the cause of his own sin, and is therefore accountable for his sin, and for his sin only.

One man can wrongly influence another man, who wrongly influences another man, who wrongly influences another man, who wrongly influences another man, and on and on it goes. But if we were to trace all of these influences back as far as we can go, we would terminate upon Adam, who started this chain reaction, in the garden. So Adam has made many to sin by his leading, influence, and example.

It can also be argued that because of Adam’s fall, all of his descendants inherit physical depravity which inclines them, influences them, and tempts them to sin, and in this way does Adam “make” us sinners, though we voluntarily choose to obey those inclinations, influences, and temptations by our own free will.

Many Old Testament Kings “made Israel to sin” (1 Kings 14:16; 15:26, 30, 34; 16:13, 26; 21:22; 22:52; 2 Kings 3:3; 10:29, 31; 13:2; 14:24; 15:9, 18, 24, 28; 21:11, 16; 23:15); that is, through their leading, influence, and example they made Israel to sin.

Foreign women caused King Solomon to sin (Nehemiah 13:26); that is, through their leading, influence, and example, Solomon decided to sin. By setting up high places of Baal, men caused Judah to sin (Jeremiah 32:35); that is, they sinned because of this leading, influence, and example. Israel had leaders who would “lead [them]” and “caused [them] to err” (Isaiah 3:12) by their leading, influence, and example. Through a person’s leading, influence, and example, a little child can be caused to sin (Matthew 18:6; Mark 9:42; Luke 17:2). The leading, influence, and example of a Christian can even cause a weaker brother to stumble (1 Corinthians 8:9).

These are all cases in which someone can be “made” or “caused” to sin through someone else’s leading, influence, and example. Likewise, because of Adam’s disobedience, “many were made sinners;” that is, through his leading, influence, and example, men voluntarily choose of their own free will to sin and to be sinners, and thus become spiritually dead and receive eternal condemnation.

[b]“ . . . so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” [/b]

Christ makes men righteous in their standing and in their doing, so that those who are converted are accounted righteous by His blood, and those who are converted are actually righteous by following His example. Christ brings pardon of previous sins and purification of present sins, forgiveness to the past and freedom to the present.

Through Christ’s obedience in shedding His blood on a cross, we are given the possibility of being accounted righteous (forgiven) through faith. We can be forgiven (accounted righteous) by faith in His blood.

“And therefore it [faith] was imputed [accounted] to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed [accounted] to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed [accounted], if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for [on behalf of] our offences, and was raised again for our justification” (Romans 4:22-25).

“Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted [imputed] to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, in thee shall all nations be blessed” (Galatians 3:6-8).

Through Christ’s obedient life we are given an example to live righteous by following Him. Christ will “lead” us “in the way of righteousness” (Proverbs 8:20). “For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you” (John 13:15). “Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps” (1 Peter 2:21). “For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world” (Titus 2:11-12). And we are to follow the example of brethren who are followers of Christ’s example (1 Corinthians 11:1; Philippians 3:17; 2 Thessalonians 3:9).

Being righteous is not only a standing, but is also a moral character in relation to deeds: “Obedience unto righteousness” (Romans 6:16). “Yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness” (Romans 6:19). “If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him” (1 John 2:29). “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous” (1 John 3:7). “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God” (1 John 3:10).

The purpose of the atonement was to cleanse sinners from all their sin, to pardon their past and to purify their present (Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24). Both imputed righteousness (forgiveness) and imparted righteousness (repentance unto obedience) are by faith in Christ, and not by outward works (Acts 26:18; Romans 3:28; 1 John 3:3).

[b]ROMANS 5:20

“Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound.” [/b]

Again, the law does not originate right and wrong. Rather the law declares right and wrong. The purpose of the law was not to forgive sin, since present obedience cannot atone for past disobedience, but the purpose was to show the exceeding sinfulness of sin, to plainly and publicly declare what sin is, to point sin out.

“Was then that which is good [the law] made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful” (Romans 7:13).

“I had not known sin, but by the law . . .” (Romans 7:7).

[b]“But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.”[/b]

The greater amount of sin there is, the greater amount of forgiveness is needed for reconciliation. How great was God’s grace when He, “who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us” (Ephesians 2:4), sent Jesus Christ, when “the whole world lies in wickedness” (1 John 5:19).

It was God’s loving grace that sent Jesus Christ to die so that all men could have the opportunity of being saved (John 3:16). It is God’s goodness that gives us the chance to repent (Romans 2:4; Revelation 2:21). But the grace of forgiveness is only given to those who repent of their sins (Luke 13:3), who repent out of love for Jesus because of what He has done for us (1 John 4:19). So grace is offered in Christ to those who are yet in their trespasses and sins (Romans 5:8), but God’s grace in Christ is only granted to those who turn from their trespasses and sins (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 8:22), to those who forsake their sins by faith (Hebrews 11:27).

The greatness of sin was shown by the law, so that the greatness of love on account of grace would be given. For how great is the love of the one who has been forgiven great trespasses, since the one forgiven much will love much (Luke 7:41-43), and as Jesus said of one women, “Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much” (Luke 7:47).

[b]ROMANS 5:21

“That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.”[/b]

Sin was the channel through which death came; now righteousness is the channel through which grace comes. The result of sin was bad, but the result of righteousness is good. Death came through sin, and now grace comes through righteousness, which is unto eternal life by Jesus Christ.

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[b]REMARKS:[/b]

[b]1.[/b] It has been proposed by certain theologians of the Augustinian tradition that the freedom of the will to choose between good and evil was somehow lost when Adam sinned, and that men are born after the fall with only the “freedom” (so called) to sin.

This would make sin a defect of the constitution rather then an abuse of the power of choice; it would make sinners mere cripples rather then criminals.

It should be noted, however, that the loss of free will was nowhere mentioned in the list of consequences and punishments for Adam’s sin (Genesis 3:14-19). In fact, God addressed Cain after the fall as one who had the power of choice (Genesis 4:6-7), and Cain inherited the same nature as his righteous brother Abel.

Many times after the fall God appeals to men to choose good over evil, and explicitly address them as those who have the power or freedom to do so (Joshua 24:15; Isaiah 1:16-20; 55:6-7; Hosea 10:12; Ezekiel 18:30-32; Jeremiah 18:11; 26:13; Act 2:40; 17:30; Romans 6:17; 1 Corinthians 7:1; 2 Timothy 2:21; James 4:2, 8-10; 1 Peter 1:22; Revelation 22:17). The freedom of the will, to choose disobedience or obedience, is a presupposition made throughout the entire Bible. So, no matter how strong the motive or temptation is, God never allows it to be above our ability, and He always makes a way of escape (1 Corinthians 10:13).

[b]2.[/b] Psalm 51:5 and Psalm 58:3 have been interpreted by the Augustinians to teach that infant children are sinful and are sinners, before they make any choices at all.

It should be noted that neither of those scriptures even mention Adam, Eve, or the fall at all. Connecting those scriptures to their doctrine of the fall is entirely prejudicial inference. They are “connecting the dots” out of bias. They also make the logical fallacy of proving a universal inheritance of original sin by pointing to universal sin, when that can be accounted for just as easily by universal temptation.

Psalm 51:5 (KJV) says that David’s mother was in sin during the time of conception, and therefore he was conceived and born in sin, as opposed to sin being in him when he was conceived and born. This is a view certain orthodox Jews hold to. It also gives us more insight into why David might have been the embarrassment of the family when Samuel came around. (1Sam 16:10-11)

Psalm 58:3 is a poetic psalm not to be taken in its literal sense, since it says that children start speaking lies from the womb. Obviously children cannot speak until some time after birth, so all this psalm is saying is that children learn to sin at an early age, and that the first sin that they commit is usually lying.

So, let it be remembered that infant children are morally innocent (2 Kings 21:16; 24:4; Joel 3:19) and have not yet “done anything” morally “good or evil” (Romans 9:11) until the age of accountability, which is the age of reason, when they know right from wrong (Deuteronomy 1:39; Isaiah 7:15-16; James 4:17), and choose to do wrong.

Men are sinners by choice and not by birth, so sinners are to be blamed and not pitied. Inward sin or indwelling sin is completely voluntary, and has to do with the voluntary condition of their inward intention or heart (Job 11:14; Matthew 23:26; Romans 6:12).

[b]3.[/b] Some have suggested that Christ was born of a virgin to avoid the reception of “original sin.” To them, sin is some abstract entity which lodges itself behind a person’s will, so that the will is necessitated to commit what they call “actual sin.” They reason that since Christ did not commit any actual sins, Christ must not have any original sin inside of Him, and that must be because He was born of a virgin.

However, scripture nowhere states that the reason of His virgin birth was to avoid inheriting original sin. This again is prejudicial conjecture, a “connecting the dots” out of bias. Rather, the bible says Christ was born of a virgin as a sign (Isaiah 7:14), and simply because God was His Father. It was not because some sort of sin stuff was hereditary, in the blood or in any other inherited part. Scripture says that Christ was made human, partook of the same flesh and blood that we have (Hebrews 2:14), and was made in all points like we are made (Hebrews 2:17), so He was tempted in all points like we are (Hebrews 2:15). Christ received the same type of body as those who use their bodies for sin, yet Christ condemned using the body for sin by not sinning (Romans 8:3). There is nothing sinful in and of itself in the human body, it is simply an “instrument” that can be used by free will (yielded) as an “instrument of righteousness” or as an “instrument of unrighteousness” (Rom 6:13).

sermonindex Nov 21, 2007

What do you guys think of this commentary?

Is this a possible interpretation? Is it logical, reasonable, and scriptural?

Is Romans 5 talking about spiritual death, since the context makes many references to death reigning over men because of their particular sin?

How did Adam make many sinners? Was it by his leading, influence, and example, the same way others in the bible "made" other people sin?

sermonindex Nov 21, 2007

"Men are condemned for their own personal sins (1 Corinthians 6:9; Revelation 21:8), and reconciliation requires a personal choice (2 Corinthians 5:20)."


Yes, as long as you are not speaking of Christians here:
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


"Men are sinners by choice and not by birth, so sinners are to be blamed and not pitied."

We love the sinner and hate the sin. The unsaved cannot save themselves and they cannot change or turn from thier sin until they turn to Jesus. Only by turning to Jesus and putting their faith and trust in Him can they turn from thier sin. The cross needs to be preached to the lost:

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

R
RobertW Nov 21, 2007

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by [u]one man[/u] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If we view sin in this passage with a small 's' (as an act) then we have to deal with a real contradiction. The first [i]act[/i] of sin in the earth was committed by Satan when he lied to Eve and set a trap for her to sin. So if we are talking about sins (in deeds) then sins entered the world through Satan; he was the first to introduce the earth to transgressing.

If we view Sin here as being a dynamic (the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience- governed by the law of sin) then it is clear that Adam opened 'the door' and Sin entered our race- death following. He was cast from the Garden lest he eat of the Tree of Life and live forever as an unregenerate fallen sinner. He sold himself and the human race into slavery to Sin itself. This slavery is broken off at death. At physical death all contracts are broken off; covenants are ended and will and testaments are brought into force.

(Romans 6:4-10) Therefore we [u]are[/u] buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so [u]we also should walk in newness of life.[/u]

Based upon this passage it is evident that Paul intends an experience in the here and now and not at the resurrection only. We are buried, raised up, and walking in newness. This is one of the purposes of Christ's death upon the Cross. He died to Sin and for those that have been baptized into Him- they share in what He has done. "IN Him" we are new creatures and "IN Him" we are dead to Sin. This is Sin as a slavemaster.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Jesus came forth in great power from the grave. Likewise, when we are baptized into Jesus Christ by the Spirit we can walk in the newness of life. This is far more than mere repentance. Repentance is the first principal of the doctrine of Christ- what I am referring to is [i]perfection[/i]; genuine Holy Ghost regeneration that transforms a person into a new creature. They have more than the spirit of bondage that leads folk to fear death (i.e. the consequence of sinning); but have received the Spirit of Adoption whereby we cry ABBA Father. This is the difference between a servant and a son.

God wants to bring many sons unto glory. To do this He has to give them the Spirit of Adoption so that they serve God from their new Christ like nature rather than out of fear. The servants do not abide in the house forever, but the sons do. God wants sons that do His will from the heart; as natural as a fish breathes under water. Thorn trees must be regenerated into fruit trees. This requires more than a change of mind and direction- it requires a change in the nature of the tree.

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.


We also have to deal with the contradiction of "in the day that you eat of the tree- dying you will die." This is ultimate death- the very worst kind of death. Adam did [i]not[/i] physically die on that day either. Adam died spiritually that day. Death is separation. Adam died later physically. Adam fell from the glory and image of God.

R
RobertW Nov 21, 2007

How did Adam make many sinners? Was it by his leading, influence, and example, the same way others in the bible "made" other people sin?

No child needs a bad example to teach them to rebel. [u]Foolishness[/u] is bound in the heart of a [i]child[/i] (Proverbs 22:15). "Foolishness" here is the Hebrew word eviyl (ev-eel). It also means perverse. It is where? It is in the heart. It is in the heart of whom? A child.

The rod of correction is a temporary expedient until the child can be born again. Like a schoolmaster. Spanking and fearful consequences for sinning through the Law and Old Covenant is employing the same Spirit of bondage unto fear in which a person were all their lifetime subject unto bondage to the fear of death (Heb. 2:15). God did not want to have to relate to people in this way if He didn't have to. While they were slaves to Sin He had to to keep them in line. But He always preferred the Spirit of Adoption- a Father and son or daughter type relationship. But in order for one to be a 'son' (or daughter) His seed has to remain in them. This is the evidence that they are born of God that theykeep themselves and the wicked one does not touch them and they do not commit sin as a matter of course. Their nature is to please their Father.

Throughout the New Testament we have the common theme of the New Birth. The whole purpose of the Gospel and the work of Christ upon the cross is summed up in Hebrews 2:10; [i]For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in [u]bringing many sons unto glory[/u], to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.[/i] God created man for the express purpose of having a people made in His own image and likeness (Gen. 1:26). He had set in order in Gen. 1 the pattern of all life on the earth; that each be fruitful and multiply after their own kind. God wanted ‘sons’. He wanted a people that were after His own heart. He wanted a Godly seed (Malachi 2:15). Yet, the seed of Satan, lies that were sown into Adam and Eve’s mind and heart ‘conceived’ and brought forth Sin and Death (James 1:15).

Jesus told the Jews that believed on Him in John 8:44 that they were of their father the devil and the lusts(strong desires) of their father they would do. This is a shocking statement to make to a people that believed on Him already and were probably more moral than 99% of folk on the earth at that time. The nature of Satan himself was sown into the human race in the Garden of Eden (Ephesians 2) and that included the Jews. They and we were of our father the Devil. Man was once a Godly seed- living in harmony with God and living in fellowship and communion with Him, but through Adam Sin entered and man kind was sold under Sin and lived a carnal existence (Romans 7:14). The mind that was once the friend of God was now hostile to Him and was unable to be made subject to God’s laws (Romans 8:7).

All human beings are born ‘in’ Adam and share in this sinful ‘Adamic’ nature. This is why we must be born again (John 3:3). We must get ‘out’ of Adam and ‘into’ Jesus Christ. In Adam all die, but in Christ shall all be made alive (I Cor. 15:22). It is when one is ‘in’ Christ that he/she is a new creature (II Cor. 5:17). This is the new birth that makes one a ‘son’ of God. The Holy Spirit baptizes us in Jesus Christ and we cry out ABBA Father from the heart (I Cor. 12:13). For those that have gone through this process of genuine regeneration, they are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ (Galatians 4:7).

R
RobertW Nov 21, 2007

Is Romans 5 talking about spiritual death, since the context makes many references to death reigning over men because of their particular sin?

Spiritual death is the breaking off of man's fellowship with God as Adam knew it. This [i]is[/i] Eternal Life that they might know Thee, the only True God and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent (John 17:3). Christ came seeking rconciliation between God and man. The cross made this possible. It is evident that very very few people ever walked with God leading up to the flood. The people fell into severe gross sinfulness in a matter of several hundred years. Evil thoughts do not proceed out of a [i]neutral[/i] heart. The heart is desperately wicked. The heart needs to be swapped out with a new one. The world was filled with violence because they had a murderous spirit within of Satan- the murderer from the beginning. The death penalty was instituted in the Spirit of bondage again unto fear to prevent people from killing each other. This is the Law hemming man and his wickedness in that has no real power to change the nature. The Law was spiritual but we were carnal and sold under Sin. Following the Law does not make a person Spiritual- the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit bringing forth the fruit of the Spirit and fruit unto God makes a person 'spiritual'. Each brings forth after it's kind. This is the great danger of our times in evangilism. Can carnality bring forth spirituality? Can a carnal witness beget a spiritual son?

(1 Corinthians 4:14,15) I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

(Galatians 4:19) My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

The seed is in the Fruit. The seed falls into the ground and dies that it might have the chance of birth. No fruit= no seed. No seed = no sons. Having begun in the Spirit can we now be perfected by the flesh? Can we have any real new births through the flesh?

In Ephesians 5 Paul tells us that marriage is essentially an allegory of our relationship to Christ. The Church is the Bride and Christ is the Bridegroom. You will recall that God’s desire in marriage is that He would seek a Godly seed. In Genesis 1:28 God blessed Adam and his wife and said to be fruitful, multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over it. This is a five fold objective. This is likewise God’s objective in the New Testament dispensation through the Church. (G.W. North)

Romans 6:1 tells us that through Christ’s death and our having been baptized into Him, the true Church has died to Sin. In Romans 7:4 we read; [i]Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that [u]we should bring forth fruit unto God[/u].[/i] Here is a delicate allusion to the case of a promising and numerous progeny from a legitimate and happy marriage (A. Clarke).

For those that have gone through the genuine born again experience, having been married unto Christ, they are enabled to bring forth fruit unto God. NOT in their own human strength, but through the preaching of the Gospel and the operation of the Holy Spirit. God’s design in marriage is fruit and multiplication. In fact, in the Old Testament it was considered essential that married folk have children. If a married couple did not have children something was seriously amiss. It was a reproach among men that barren women suffered (Luke 1:25). There are no less than 4 different stories in the Old Testament of women that could not have children being vexed and taking up their cause with God.

This is a picture of the heart of God. God wants sons- many sons (Heb. 2:10). Not in some passive way; but even as Rachel cried to Jacob, “Give me children, or else I die”. Leonard Ravenhill alluded to this and so have others. Christ did die. He died that He [i]might bring many sons unto glory[/i] (Heb. 2:10). He want’s fruitfulness. He wants multiplication. He expects that our relationship with Christ produce offspring into the Church. This is a great portion of the ‘great mystery’ Paul speaks of In Ephesians 5.

So there has to be a REAL death to Sin and the Law or we cannot truly bring forth fruit unto God.


R
RobertW Nov 21, 2007

What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge? As I live, says the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:2-4).

It was not the [i]use[/i] of this proverb that God was rebuking- it was the [i]abuse[/i] of it. Everyone is accountable for their own actions. No excuses! However, there are certainly traits within families that create tendencies towards certain sins. God wanted to bring many sons unto glory. God needed to change the peoples nature as mentioned before. For emphasis sake, the below passages imply a contrast between those born of God and those that are not.


1 Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is [u]born of him[/u].

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is [u]born of God[/u] doth not commit sin; for [u]his seed remaineth in him:[/u] and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and [u]every one that loveth is born of God[/u], and knoweth God.

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is [u]born of God[/u]: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is [u]born of God overcometh the world[/u]: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

To be born of God is to have the nature of Christ; [i]not my will but Thine be done.[/i]


sermonindex Nov 21, 2007

If Romans 5 is not talking about spiritual death coming upon those who choose to sin, then these verses don't really make any sense:

ROMANS 5:12:

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin . . .”

“. . . and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”

ROMANS 5:13

“(For until the law sin was in the world . . . ”


“ . . . but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”


ROMANS 5:14

“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses . . . ”

“ . . . even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”

sermonindex Nov 21, 2007

This is what I mean. Saying things like:

"death passed upon all men, [i]for all have sinned[/i]"

“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses [i]even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression[/i]"

Makes it seem that this death is passed upon those who choose to sin, and that it passes even upon those who don't sin the same way Adam sinned.

[b]The former[/b] quotation makes it clear that the death comes upon them for their own sin.

[b]The latter[/b] quotation makes it clear that there is a distinction between their sin and Adams sin.

It is clear that the type of death spoken of here comes upon men for their own personal sin (vs. 12). And their sin is distinct and different from the sin of Adam (vs. 14).

But if it is not talking about spiritual death coming upon those who choose to sin, verses 12-14 really don't make any sense. And if we don't properly understand verses 12-14, we will end up with a faulty interpretation of the preceding passages.

ROMANS 5:12:“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin . . .”

Adam brought sin into the world by his own free will, and spiritual death comes by sin. Adam became dead in sin (separated from God), just as God said he would, the very day that he ate from the tree. Though Adam physically died many years later, on account of being removed from the garden that had the tree of life, Adam spiritually died the same day he sinned against God.

“In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Genesis 2:17). Since God cannot fellowship with or dwell with sin, Adam spiritually died, and became spiritually separated from God, the day he sinned. “And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died” (Genesis 5:5); that is, Adam eventually physically died since he was removed from the tree of life (Genesis 3:22-24).

“. . . and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”

Spiritual death comes by sin, so all who choose to sin become spiritually dead. Because God cannot have fellowship with those who are in sin, those who are in sin must be separated from God, and thus they are spiritually dead in their sins.

“For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died [spiritually and morally, since Paul was still physically alive to write this]” (Romans 7:9).

“But sin . . . working death in me . . . .” (Romans 7:13).

“. . . alienated and enemies [relationally] . . . by wicked works” (Colossians 1:21).

"And you, being dead [spiritually and morally, since they were still physically alive] in your sins [not Adam’s sin] . . . ” (Colossians 2:13).

“But your iniquities [not Adam’s] have separated between you and your God [brought spiritual death], and your sins [not Adam’s] have hid His face from you [separation]” (Isaiah 59:2).

ROMANS 5:13

“(For until the law sin was in the world . . . ”

The Law of Moses did not originate right and wrong. Rather, it declared right and wrong, since sin existed before the law was given. The law reveals what sin is, to point it out.

“Was then that which is good [the law] made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working [spiritual] death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful” (Romans 7:13).

“I had not known sin, but by the law . . . ” (Romans 7:7).

“ . . . but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”

Just as faith is imputed [accounted as] righteousness (Romans 4:11), disobedience to the law is imputed [accounted as] sin. The Bible says, “to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin” (James 4:17).

And sinning against known law brings spiritual death. “For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died [spiritual and moral death]” (Romans 7:9).

ROMANS 5:14

“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses . . . ”

In between Adam and Moses was the time when the law was not yet written on stone tablets. Only the law of nature existed. Nevertheless, men were spiritually and morally dead in their sins because they violated the law of their own conscience; they did what they knew to be wrong.

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shown it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; . . . they glorified him not as God” (Romans 1:18-21).

“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another” (Romans 2:14-15).

So, before the Law of Moses was given, spiritual death still reigned, since the law of nature, the law of their conscience, was being violated.

“ . . . even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”

Spiritual death reigned from Adam to Moses unto all men who sinned, even if their sin was not in the likeness of Adam’s transgression. For Adam transgressed a commandment; but those in between Adam and Moses acted contrary to the law of nature.

God must be separated from all sin (Hebrews 7:26; 1 John 1:5; 3:5). Therefore, all sin must lead to spiritual death. “Greater sin” (John 19:11), committed by those who have greater knowledge, or lesser sin, committed by those with lesser knowledge, must still separate a man from God. So those with “greater sin” or lesser sin are still dead in their sins. (The relation of knowledge to the measure of guilt is discussed further on.)

Those who transgress a commandment, like Adam did (“Adam’s transgression”), become dead in sin. And those who violate the law of nature, like the Gentiles did, become dead in sin. Death reigned from Adam to Moses, upon those who did not have the Ten Commandments, because they violated the law of nature.

R
roaringlamb Nov 21, 2007

It is interesting to note that in verse 12, the word for "death" is "thanatos", and is used as a noun. Thus describing "death" as a thing. The verb "passed" is in the 3rd person(meaning it is speaking of the object, which is death), and is in the aorist, active, meaning that the event happened and continues to happen to this present moment.

So we could say that death has passed through, and continues to pass through all men, because all men have sinned, and continue to sin(the verb for sin is in the same tense, and person).

But when we move to verse 15, where it says that many are dead, Paul uses the word "apothnesko" which is a verb, and it is in the same tense as before, meaning that through the offense of one man many are dead, and continue to die even to this present day.

I am no Greek wiz by any means, but if we are going to tread into the "what ifs", and "maybes", we had better be prepared to see what is really being said.

Now as for the death passing upon men that had not committed the same sin as Adam, we see this in Cain. Who taught Cain to murder? Did he need to learn how to, or was it sin within him that simply poured out as vengeance?

Also Jesse, if you are going to say that infants are born innocent, then you need to explain why they suffer from the wages of sin.

Infants die, suffer pain, and illness which are all symptoms of the fall of man, which points to th fact that they are not innocent. If they were innocent, and still died and suffered, then we could say that God was unjust in His ways, as He would be imputing guilt and its consequences where there was no sin.

Children do not need to be taught how to sin, it is within them. The idea that a child is a victim of his or her surroundings, and learns sin from the examples set before them is nothing more than the modern day psychological view that society makes a man a criminal, or that the outward influences in a persons' life cause them to be "bad", but if we remove those influences, they will be "good".

Finney, and the Arminian revivalists who cast out original sin have(unfortunately) helped shape much of today's thinking both Church-wise, and society.

After all if a man is born "good", then all he needs is instruction in how to stay "good", and thus he can live by the law,because the law says , "do this and thou shalt live."

But even here, one would see that the majority of the "commands" that are propped up to support man's ability are subjunctive in nature ans state a possibility, but not an actuality.

It is the same if I tell you that if you were to flap your arms and fly west, you could get to California. It is true, but you are not able, and thus it is a statement and not a command that implies ability.

R
roaringlamb Nov 21, 2007

Matthew Henry is very insightful here-

III. The parallel that the apostle runs between the communication of sin and death by the first Adam and of righteousness and life by the second Adam Ro 5:12-21, which not only illustrates the truth he is discoursing of, but tends very much to the commending of the love of God and the comforting of the hearts of true believers, in showing a correspondence between our fall and our recovery, and not only a like, but a much greater power in the second Adam to make us happy, than there was in the first to make us miserable. Now, for the opening of this, observe,

1. A general truth laid down as the foundation of his discourse--that Adam was a type of Christ Ro 5:14: Who is the figure of him that was to come. Christ is therefore called the last Adam, 1Co 15:45. Compare Ro 5:21. In this Adam was a type of Christ, that in the covenant-transactions that were between God and him, and in the consequent events of those transactions, Adam was a public person. God dealt with Adam and Adam acted as such a one, as a common father and factor, root and representative, of and for all his posterity; so that what he did in that station, as agent for us, we may be said to have done in him, and what was done to him may be said to have been done to us in him. Thus Jesus Christ, the Mediator, acted as a public person, the head of all the elect, dealt with God for them, as their father, factor, root, and representative--died for them, rose for them, entered within the veil for them, did all for them. When Adam failed, we failed with him; when Christ performed, he performed for us. Thus was Adam tupov tou mellontov--the figure of him that was to come, to come to repair that breach which Adam had made.

2. A more particular explication of the parallel, in which observe,

(1.) How Adam, as a public person, communicated sin and death to all his posterity Ro 5:12: By one man sin entered. We see the world under a deluge of sin and death, full of iniquities and full of calamities. Now, it is worth while to enquire what is the spring that feeds it, and you will find it to be the general corruption of nature; and at what gap it entered, and you will find it to have been Adam's first sin. It was by one man, and he the first man (for if any had been before him they would have been free), that one man from whom, as from the root, we all spring.

[1.] By him sin entered. When God pronounced all very good Ge 1:31 there was no sin in the world; it was when Adam ate forbidden fruit that sin made its entry. Sin had before entered into the world of angels, when many of them revolted from their allegiance and left their first estate; but it never entered into the world of mankind till Adam sinned. Then it entered as an enemy, to kill and destroy, as a thief, to rob and despoil; and a dismal entry it was. Then entered the guilt of Adam's sin imputed to posterity, and a general corruption and depravedness of nature. ef' w --for that (so we read it), rather in whom, all have sinned. Sin entered into the world by Adam, for in him we all sinned. As, 1Co 15:22, in Adam all die; so here, in him all have sinned; for it is agreeable to the law of all nations that the acts of a public person be accounted theirs whom they represent; and what a whole body does every member of the same body may be said to do. Now Adam acted thus as a public person, by the sovereign ordination and appointment of God, and yet that founded upon a natural necessity; for God, as the author of nature, had made this the law of nature, that man should beget in his own likeness, and so the other creatures. In Adam therefore, as in a common receptacle, the whole nature of man was reposited, from him to flow down in a channel to his posterity; for all mankind are made of one blood Ac 17:26, so that according as this nature proves through his standing or falling, before he puts it out of his hands, accordingly it is propagated from him. Adam therefore sinning and falling, the nature became guilty and corrupt, and is so derived. Thus in him all have sinned.

[2.] Death by sin, for death is the wages of sin. Sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. When sin came, of course death came with it. Death is here put for all that misery which is the due desert of sin, temporal, spiritual, eternal death. If Adam had not sinned, he had not died; the threatening was, In the day thou eatest thou shall surely die, Ge 2:17.

[3.] So death passed, that is, a sentence of death was passed, as upon a criminal, dihlyhn--passed through all men, as an infectious disease passes through a town, so that none escape it. It is the universal fate, without exception: death passes upon all. There are common calamities incident to human life which do abundantly prove this. Death reigned, Ro 5:14. He speaks of death as a mighty prince, and his monarchy the most absolute, universal, and lasting monarchy. None are exempted from its sceptre; it is a monarchy that will survive all other earthly rule, authority, and power, for it is the last enemy, 1Co 15:26. Those sons of Belial that will be subject to no other rule cannot avoid being subject to this. Now all this we may thank Adam for; from him sin and death descend. Well may we say, as that good man, observing the change that a fit of sickness had made in his countenance, O Adam! what hast thou done?

Further, to clear this, he shows that sin did not commence with the law of Moses, but was in the world until, or before, that law; therefore that law of Moses is not the only rule of life, for there was a rule, and that rule was transgressed, before the law was given. It likewise intimates that we cannot be justified by our obedience to the law of Moses, any more than we were condemned by and for our disobedience to it. Sin was in the world before the law; witness Cain's murder, the apostasy of the old world, the wickedness of Sodom. His inference hence is, Therefore there was a law; for sin is not imputed where there is no law. Original sin is a want of conformity to, and actual sin is a transgression of, the law of God: therefore all were under some law. His proof of it is, Death reigned from Adam to Moses, Ro 5:14. It is certain that death could not have reigned if sin had not set up the throne for him. This proves that sin was in the world before the law, and original sin, for death reigned over those that had not sinned any actual sin, that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, never sinned in their own persons as Adam did--which is to be understood of infants, that were never guilty of actual sin, and yet died, because Adam's sin was imputed to them. This reign of death seems especially to refer to those violent and extraordinary judgments which were long before Moses, as the deluge and the destruction of Sodom, which involved infants. It is a great proof of original sin that little children, who were never guilty of any actual transgression, are yet liable to very terrible diseases, casualties, and deaths, which could by no means be reconciled with the justice and righteousness of God if they were not chargeable with guilt.

(2.) How, in correspondence to this, Christ, as a public person, communicates righteousness and life to all true believers, who are his spiritual seed. And in this he shows not only wherein the resemblance holds, but, ex abundanti, wherein the communication of grace and love by Christ goes beyond the communication of guilt and wrath by Adam. Observe,

[1.] Wherein the resemblance holds. This is laid down most fully, Ro 5:18-19.

First, By the offence and disobedience of one many were made sinners, and judgment came upon all men to condemnation. Here observe,

1. That Adam's sin was disobedience, disobedience to a plain and express command: and it was a command of trial. The thing he did was therefore evil because it was forbidden, and not otherwise; but this opened the door to other sins, though itself seemingly small.

2. That the malignity and poison of sin are very strong and spreading, else the guilt of Adam's sin would not have reached so far, nor have been so deep and long a stream. Who would think there should be so much evil in sin?

3. That by Adam's sin many are made sinners: many, that is, all his posterity; said to be many, in opposition to the one that offended, Made sinners, katestayhsav. It denotes the making of us such by a judicial act: we were cast as sinners by due course of law.

4. That judgment is come to condemnation upon all those that by Adam's disobedience were made sinners. Being convicted, we are condemned. All the race of mankind lie under a sentence, like an attainder upon a family. There is judgment given and recorded against us in the court of heaven; and, if the judgment be not reversed, we are likely to sink under it to eternity.

Secondly, In like manner, by the righteousness and obedience of one (and that one is Jesus Christ, the second Adam), are many made righteous, and so the free gift comes upon all. It is observable how the apostle inculcates this truth, and repeats it again and again, as a truth of very great consequence. Here observe,

1. The nature of Christ's righteousness, how it is brought in; it is by his obedience. The disobedience of the first Adam ruined us, the obedience of the second Adam saves us,--his obedience to the law of mediation, which was that he should fulfill all righteousness, and then make his soul an offering for sin. By his obedience to this law he wrought out a righteousness for us, satisfied God's justice, and so made way for us into his favour.

R
roaringlamb Nov 21, 2007

Jesse something else I'd like to understand about your(Finney's) views is what do you gain?

Do you really gain justification by faith, or do you have to work to maintain justification? If so, how is that any different than Roman Catholicism or Judaism? Why would Christ need to die to justify you or anyone else, if you could and must justify yourself by your keeping God's commands?

Where is grace in all of this? If God only make salvation possible to those who "earn" it, it is not really grace any more, for it would be based upon your works.

Also, how can tell people to believe the "good news" of Christ and His work, but then throw them back upon themselves and their ability to keep God's Law? Could any of us do it before becoming Christians? Can any of us now that we are?

And if you can keep it perfectly, then you are like a second coming of Christ, for only He can keep perfectly His Father's commands.

All I am saying is that if you make Christ into another Moses, you are preaching another Christ, and another Gospel as the true Gospel is what God has done for sinners on their behalf by His Son, and is not what we do to earn God's favor.

Grace and peace to you and yours, and happy thanksgiving.

sermonindex Nov 21, 2007

Now as for the death passing upon men that had not committed the same sin as Adam, we see this in Cain. Who taught Cain to murder? Did he need to learn how to, or was it sin within him that simply poured out as vengeance?

This argument is a logical fallacy. It consists in nothing more then "because people sin, they have a sinful nature." Or "because nobody taught them to sin, they have a sinful nature".

But who taught Satan to sin? Yet he sinned. Satan, Adam, and Eve all sinned without a sinful nature. The existence of sin does not presuppose the existence of a sinful nature.

So the argument that sin proves a sinful nature is entirely begging the question and is nothing more then a logical fallacy.

The fact that Cain sinned only proves that Cain faced [b]temptation[/b], and not that Cain had a sinful nature. God addressed Cain after the fall as one who had the power of choice (Genesis 4:6-7), and Cain inherited the same nature as his righteous brother Abel.

And the fact that little children sin only proves that little children face [b]temptation[/b], and not that little children have a "sin" inside of them which is behind their will, which "sin" forces them to commit "actual sin".

So who "taught" or "tempted" Cain to sin, probably the same one who tempted his father Adam, the devil! And who "teaches" or "tempts" children to sin? No doubt, the devil.

Also Jesse, if you are going to say that infants are born innocent, then you need to explain why they suffer from the wages of sin.

Let it be clearly understood that even animals physically die, yet animals have not sinned. Likewise infant babies physically die, though infant babies have not sinned.

Here is a thorough explanation from the commentary:

PHYSICAL DEATH & PHYSICAL LIFE

Physical death in Adam and physical life through Christ contrasted:

1Cor 15:21-22 “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Adam brought physical death upon all of his posterity when he was removed from the Garden of Eden where the tree of life was. Man needed to eat from the tree of life to live, which is why the tree was in the garden in the first place. But without it, the body was subjected to death, and would inevitably die. So, when Adam was removed from the garden on account of his sin, all those who were seminally in his loins (so to speak) were removed as well.

“And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man: and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.” (Genesis 3:22-24)

So, infant children, who are morally “innocent” (2 Kings 21:16; 24:4; Joel 3:19) and have not yet “done anything” morally “good or evil” (Romans 9:11), are subjected to physical death as a consequence of Adam’s sin since they are born outside of the Garden of Eden. But since infant children have neither guilt (because they are innocent) nor any sin (they have committed none), infant children do not go to Hell but to the Kingdom of God if they die in infancy (2 Samuel 12:23; Matthew 19:14), since they have no sin to be punished for.

But now through Christ, we have a physical resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:22), a glorified body (1 Corinthians 15:42-45, 52-55), and access to the tree of life (Revelation 2:7; 22:2, 14) and to the water of life (Revelation 22:17).

We inherit a body from Adam that is subjected to death, but we will receive a body from Christ which is not, as it is a body capable of living forever. Adam brought physical death, and Christ has brought the physical resurrection. Because of Adam, the tree of life was removed from all men, and all men, in consequence, are destined to die. But through Christ comes the resurrection and access to the tree of life, and, in consequence, the righteous will have eternal life. Christ restores what Adam lost.

And no sinner is saved by earning or meriting eternal life by keeping the law! Both Finney and Pelagius said explicitly that we are saved "by faith alone", as anyone who has actually read their writings would know.

God has grace and mercy for those who repent of their sins and put their trust in Jesus Christ. God will forgive the sins of those who turn from their sin and turn to Jesus.

P
Psalm73 Nov 21, 2007

To be justified, simply keep the commandments of God and have faith in Jesus Christ. Commandment keeping was emphasized by Joshua, and yet afterwards the children of Israel chosen the strange gods, instead of the Lord. The same is today, the veneration of the saints is a perfect example, such pictures as well as prayers are robbing God of his honour and will make his wrath come upon us shortly.
I used to believe blindly following Spurgeon and his sweet preachings and now I use Luther and Tyndale with the O.T and N.T from their era of the reformation to prove that your worship of God is in vain, and that you need to turn from idols unto Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 3 (1526 W.Tyndale N.T) 2 For the men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, cursed speakers, disobedient to father and mother, unthankful, unholy,
3 churlish, stubborn, false accusers, rioters, fierce, despisers of them which are good,
4 traitors, heady, high minded, greedy upon voluptuousness more than the lovers of God,
5 having a similitude of godly living, but have denied the power there of. Such abhor.

Try comparin this to your K.J, which if you have, you are a step away from reformation, when you realize bible corrupters are present in the text. If you are a geneva believer, you still need to get past the notes and simply put it, turn away from the men's doctrine therin (calvinism to which I was coverted, until I later learned of the trueth and reformed)

R
RobertW Nov 21, 2007

And the fact that little children sin only proves that little children face temptation, and not that little children have a "sin" inside of them which is behind their will, which "sin" [u]forces[/u] them to commit "actual sin".

Two things here:

First, it is an overstatement and a stone of stumbling to say that indwelling Sin 'forces' anyone to do anything. I do not believe that at all. The Sin that entered gives the person a nature to rebel against God. They are of their father the Devil and the Devil's lusts or desires- they do.

What [u]I[/u] am also saying is, the indwelling Sin is the [u]source[/u] of the temptation. Satan does not appear to children to tempt them to act foolishly. They are tempted from [i]within[/i].

R
RobertW Nov 21, 2007

And no sinner is saved by earning or meriting eternal life by keeping the law! Both Finney and Pelagius said explicitly that we are saved "by faith alone", as anyone who has actually read their writings would know.

God has grace and mercy for those who repent of their sins and put their trust in Jesus Christ. God will forgive the sins of those who turn from their sin and turn to Jesus.

The problem I have with Finney (I do not group him with Pelagius as I view his doctrine as heritical) is that he did not appreciate the effect that the fall had on humanity. I do not believe anyone goes to hell for Adam's sin. I do believe that his willfull sinning opened the door for Sin and Death to enter.

A carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot be made subject to His laws. the law gives the sinful nature something to rebel against. Indwelling sin takes advantage of the Law to bring forth fruit unto death. The law is spiritual but we were carnal and sold under sin. Man kind needs more than a bunch of laws to hemm them in. They need to be born of God and become God's progeny.

Finney did not believe this. His views ring shockingly close to Paul's rebuke to the Galatians- though I think he did not mean what it appears that he is saying. He spends so much time overthrowing Calvinistic views that he comes off as Pelagian. He spent too much time explaining things using his own terms which greatly confuses everything. if he would have taken a more bible based, biblically termed approach we may have had a better idea what he was saying.

Moreover, Sin did not originate in Adam in of himself. He never is said to have as much as eyed the Tree before the Serpent came. Sin came when the Serpent came. Satan stood at the door and knocked. Adam heard his voice and opened the door. Sin and Death entered in to sup together with Adam. Consider this:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (I Peter 1:23)

This is the process of undoing what Adam did in the Garden. This is the process that gives birth to sons.

sermonindex Nov 21, 2007

Robert,

What you mean (as far as I understand) is what Finney taught that we inherit temptation or lust. Because we inherit a fallen body we have internal temptations called "the lusts of the flesh" and theses lusts, passions, desires, cravings, tempt us to sin.

It is the Augustinians and the Calvinists that believe we don't just inherit temptation, but we inherit some abstract thing called "sin" which lodges itself within our nature, and lies behind our will, and forces our will by necessity to commit "actual sin".

But Arminians, Wesleyans, and Finneyites agree that we inherit an inclination to sin but not a causation to sin. We are tempted to sin but we are not forced to sin.

--------------

Robert,

Have you read any of Pelagius' actual writings? I've read His Commentary on the Romans, His "Life and Letters" by Rees, and "A Historical Account of Augustinianism and Pelagianism".

And I have not found Pelagius to be heretical at all. Rather, I have found Augustine to be the heretic.

And I have found that Calvinists and many others completely slander and misrepresent Pelagius when they say that "Pelagius taught that you can be saved without the grace of God" and "Pelagius said you have to merit and earn salvation". That is simply not true and anyone who has actually read Pelagius' writings would know that.

The Pelagian heresies were that: 1. All men still have a freewill, it was not lost in the fall. 2. Because men have a freewill, they don't have to sin but choose to sin. 3. We are not accountable for the sins of another. 4. Babies don't need to be baptized to avoid hell on account of Adams sin.

sermonindex Nov 21, 2007

LOL!!! Jesse we keep bumping threads :-) .

I think the death that has passed for an unbeliever is hell and the wrath of God, for a believer if they were to sin it would be dead works burned up and the consequences of those actions.

sermonindex Nov 21, 2007

There are three types of negative deaths in the bible:

[b]Physical Death[/b] (death of the body): this is caused by Adam according to 1Cor 15:21-22

[b]Spiritual and Moral Death[/b] (dead in sin): this is caused by each man's personal choices to sin according to Isaiah 59:2, Romans 5:12, Romans 7:9, and Colossians 2:13

[b]Eternal Death[/b] (eternal destruction of the soul): this is also caused by each man's personal sins according to Revelations 21:8

There is also the good type of death of being [b]dead to sin[/b], which is also a personal choice according to Matthew 16:24, Romans 6:11, 1Cor 15:31

R
RobertW Nov 21, 2007

Have you read any of Pelagius' actual writings? I've read His Commentary on the Romans, His "Life and Letters" by Rees, and "A Historical Account of Augustinianism and Pelagianism".

I have not read Pelagius's actual writings other than as they are quoted by others. Perhaps as time permits I will take up the matter.

What you mean (as far as I understand) is what Finney taught that we inherit temptation or lust. Because we inherit a fallen body we have internal temptations called "the lusts of the flesh" and theses lusts, passions, desires, cravings, tempt us to sin.

I think a distinction needs to be made between good and natural desires and the lusts of the flesh. Natural desires coupled or corrupted with Sin = "the Flesh". Natural desires after death to Sin in Christ = "the flesh." The one is natural as God designed- the other is unnatural and lends to all sorts of excess. We will always have to deal with natural desires. It is the Sin corrupted element that I believe the New Birth deals with.

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