Did Christ Take Our PUNISHMENT?

[u][b]DID CHRIST TAKE OUR PUNISHMENT?[/b][/u]

To answer this question, we must ask this question:

[u][b]WHAT IS THE PUNISHMENT OF SIN?[/b][/u]

There are two sides of this argument. There are those who say that physical death is our punishment, and there are those who say that eternal death is our punishment.

I take the side of those who say that eternal death is the punishment for sin. Though physical death is a consequences of Adams sin, since we were kicked out of the garden, eternal death is the direct punishment for each man's personal sin.

[u][b]WHAT IF PHYSICAL DEATH IS OUR PUNISHMENT?[/b][/u]

We know that Christ physically died, He did not burn in hell. So those who argue that Christ took our punishment have to say that physical death, and not hell, is our punishment.

- If physical death is our punishment, and Christ took our punishment so we don't have to be punished, then we should not have to physically die.

- If physical death is our punishment, and Christ took our punishment, and we still physically die, then our sins are punished twice.

- If physical death is our punishment, then once every dies physically, they don't have to face any eternal punishment.

- If physical death is our punishment, and we still physically die, then Christ did not save us from our punishment.

- Whatever Christ saves us from must be the punishment of our sins, since Christ died to save us from our punishment. If Christ saves us from the second death in hell, and not physical death, then hellfire must be the punishment for our sins.

- But if hellfire is our punishment, and Christ did not go to hell, then Christ did not take our punishment, but rather shed his blood for our sins so that our sins don't have to be punished but can be forgiven.

So Christ atoned for our sins, He wasn't punished for our sins. The punishment for our sins was eternal death in hell, not physical death on a cross. But the atonement of Christ was an alternative, replacement, or substitute for our punishment.

[u][b]WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?[/b][/u]

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death"

2Th 1:9 "who shall be punished with everlasting destruction"

Rev 20:14 "the lake of fire. This is the second death"

Revelations 21:8 "the lake which burns with fire and brimestone, which is the second death"

So the wages of sin is eternal death in hellfire. The punishment of our sin is "everlasting destruction".

[u][b]SO IF CHRIST DID NOT TAKE OUR PUNISHMENT, WHAT DID CHRIST DO?[/b][/u]

- Christ and his blood shed is the substituted for us and our punishment of hell: Isaiah 53:5

- The law required either an atonement for our sins (blood shed) or the punishment of our sin (hellfire): Heb 9:19, 9:22

- When the atonement of blood is made, the punishment of hell can be set aside: Heb 9:22

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is able to pardon our debts instead of require the payment of our debt: Matt 6:12, Matt 18:27, Luke 7:42

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is able to forgive us our sins instead of punish our sins: Acts 5:31, Acts 13:38, Acts 26:18, Eph 1:7, Col 1:14, Heb 9:22

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is just in forgiving our sins and just in pardoning our debt: Romans 2:26. He is just in setting aside our punishment of hell because the requirement of the law is satisfied: Heb 9:19, 9:22

Jesse,

Christ [b]did[/b] take our punishment upon himself. The biblical word used by God is "propitiation" it is a very important and key doctrine. The wrath of God was poured out on Christ that we deserved.

Greg,

Why do you think that Jonathon Edwards, Albert Barnes, and Charles Finney all disagreed with that atonement theory? Even Leonard Ravenhills #1 recommended book out of 40 was Albert Barnes book on the atonement.

- Christ and his sufferings is substituted with us and our punishment: Isaiah 53

- The law required either an atonement for our sins (blood shed) or the punishment of our sin (hellfire): Heb 9:19, 9:22

- When the atonement of blood is made, the punishment of hell can be set aside: Heb 9:22

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is able to pardon our debts instead of require the payment of our debt: Matt 6:12, Matt 18:27, Luke 7:42

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is able to forgive us our sins instead of punish our sins: Acts 5:31, Acts 13:38, Acts 26:18, Eph 1:7, Col 1:14, Heb 9:22

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is just in forgiving our sins and just in pardoning our debt: Romans 2:26. He is just in setting aside our punishment of hell because the requirement of the law is satisfied: Heb 9:19, 9:22

[u][b]1. THE EXAMPLE OF THE SCAPE GOAT:[/b][/u] Lev 16:9-10

In this illustration the scape goat would bare the sin of the people away into the wilderness.

[b]Because the scape goat would bare the sins of the people many assumptions have been made. But the text does [u]NOT[/u] allow for the assumptions that:[/b]

- punishment was transferred: the goat did not go to hell.

- moral guilty was transferred: the goat was not a moral agent and guilt cannot be transferred. Guilty has to do with personal actions. Nowhere does the text say that the goat was guilty of anything.

- moral character or moral identity was transferred: Moral character cannot be transferred but can only be developed. Character is not a commodity that can be bought and sold, transferred or inheritted.

The goat did not become a sinner neither did the priest become a goat. God did not see the goat as a sinner but rather as a goat. And God did not see the priest as a goat but rather as a priest.

[u]Sin[/u] was [u]represented[/u] but [u]punishment[/u], [u]guilt[/u], and [u]character[/u] was not [u]transferred[/u].

[b]What does the scape goat illustrate:[/b]

- an atonement is made on behalf of sins: the purpose of the atonement is that it is done for sins. Sacrifices are done [i]for[/i] the sins of the people. The scape goat ceremony was for the sins of the people.

- an atonement substitutes our punishment: an atonement is always an alternative to punishment, which makes it possible for God not to execute the punishment. The scape goat was an alternative (substitute) to the peoples punishment.

- an atonement bares away sins (takes away sins). The effect of the atonement is to lead sinners to repentance. The atonement is to take away the actual sins of the people.

The scape goat would bare away the sins of the people, [b][u]symbolically[/u][/b] showing how an atonement takes away both the punishment of sin and also the actual sins.

[b]JESUS CHRIST:[/b] is our scape goat. He, symbolically and not literally, bore our sins on the tree. That means that Christ died on behalf of our sins (sin offering) so that the sins don't have to be punished and Christ takes away our sins by leading us into repentance.

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[u][b]2. THE EXAMPLE OF THE PASSOVER LAMB:[/b][/u] Exodus 12:21-23

In this story, a lambs blood was to be put on the door of the house for the plague to passover instead of being poured out.

[b]It must be noticed that[/b]

- the passover lamb did not receive the plague instead of the Israelites

- the passover lamb did not become guilty of anything

- the passover lamb did not become a sinner

- the Israelites did not change identities with the lamb

[b]The passover lamb:[/b]

- Was an [i]alternative[/i] (or substituted) to the plague sent by God.

- Made it possible for the plague to passover instead of poured out.

[b]JESUS CHRIST:[/b] is our passover lamb (1Cor 5:7). He did not receive the plague (wrath) but makes it possible for the plague (wrath) to "passover" instead of being poured out.

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[u][b]3. THE EXAMPLE OF THE SERPENT IN THE DESERT:[/b][/u] Numbers 21:6-8

As a punishment for sins, God sent serpents to bite the Israelites. To "take away the serpents from among us" Moses, as instructed by God, lifted up a serpent upon a pole so that all who look to it would be healed.

[b]It should be understood that[/b]

- The serpent on the pole was not bitten by the other serpents

- The Israelites did not exchange identities with the serpent on the pole

- The serpent on the pole did not become guilty of any sin

- The serpent on the pole did not become a sinner

[b]The serpent on the pole:[/b]

- Made it possible for the Israelites to be healed (forgiven: escape further punishment). All they had to do with to look to the Serpent on the pole and they would cease from being bitten and would be healed of their wounds.

[b]JESUS CHRIST:[/b] is the serpent in the wilderness (Jn 3:14). Jesus makes it possible for us to be healed, that is, forgiven of our sins so that our sins are not punished. If we will but look to Jesus, we will be saved from wrath and our sins will be forgiven.

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[u][b]4. THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF ANY ATONEMENT:[/b][/u]

There are other accomplishments of an atonement but these are the major ones: Righteousness imparted and righteousness imputed:

[b]- FORGIVENESS:[/b] (Righteousness imputed) Without blood shed their is no forgiveness of sins (Heb 9:11). That means that without an atonement, punishment must be executed. But with an atonement, punishment can be set aside, sins can be forgiven instead of punished.

Romans 3:24-26 says that the blood atonement makes it possible for God to graciously forgive our sins (instead of punish them) and that the blood atonement makes it [b]JUST[/b] for God to do so, since justice requires either atonement or punishment.

[b]- REPENTANCE:[/b] (Righteousness imparted) The Lamb of God takes away our sin(John 1:29) His blood cleanses us from all sin (1John 1:7, 1John 3:5). The effect of the atonement is to bring the sinner to repentance, to cleanse him from all sin, to purify and purge him.

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[u][b]5. ATONEMENT INSTEAD OF PUNISHMENT:[/b][/u]

The scriptures represent an atonement as an alternative to punishment, or as a substituted for punishment, which makes it possible for God to forgive instead of punish.

[b]AN EXAMPLE:[/b] would be in Numbers 16:46-48. In this story, wrath was being poured out upon the Israelites. But when Aaron made an atonement for sins, the wrath was "stayed" instead of poured out.

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[u][b]6. FORGIVENESS OF SINS INSTEAD OF PUNISHMENT OF SINS:[/b][/u]

[b]It should be understood that:[/b]

- Sins that are punished are not sins that are forgiven.

- Sins that are forgiven are not sins that are punished.

[b]The bible says:[/b]

- that God actually forgives sins: Mat 9:6, Mark 2:7, Mark 2:10, Luke 5:21, Luke 5:24, Luke 11:4, 1John 1:9.

- that the atonement makes it possible for God to forgive (remission) sins: Mat 26:28, Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:43, Heb 10:18)

Because of the atonement of Christ, God can actually forgive our sins instead of punish our sins, God can actually be just in setting aside our punishment.

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[u][b]7. PARDON OF DEBT INSTEAD OF PAYMENT OF DEBT:[/b][/u]

[b]It should be understood that:[/b]

- A debt paid is not a debt pardoned

- A debt pardoned is not a debt paid

- Pardon and forgiveness are synonymous

- Payment and punishment are synonymous

[b]The bible says:[/b]

- God actually pardons the debt: Mat 6:12, Matt 18:27, Luke 7:42.

These are examples of unpaid debts being forgiven. Only unpaid debts can be forgiven, since paid debts are not forgiven but paid.

Matthew 18 particularly makes payment and pardon an antithesis.

God can only pardon our debts, when an atonement is made. An atonement is a substituted for our payment. An atonement is the price of blood to substituted for the payment or penalty of hell.

Hi all

It's late here, and I don't feel inclined to argue on this subject, just make a brief comment:

It seems to me that it's another case of "all of the above", if anyone had made a list.

Christ took our punishment, but He also took a whole lot more - He took [i][u]us[/u][/i] to the Cross. He also DID a whole lot more.

Propitiation is only part of the story, taking our punishment is only part of the story, victory over sin, the flesh and the Devil is only part of the story. Whichever aspect of the Atonement we discuss it's only part of the glorious whole.

It's not a case of "either...or"; did He or didn't He? Rather its a case of "and...and"

in Him, whose salvation, and its implications, is far greater than we can ever imagine

Jeannette

As mentioned in another thread, take all the OT sacrifices, Temple and Tabernacle, ritual and priestly garments etc etc and it gives some illustration of different aspects of the Atonement.

With that take the duties of the next of kin, the "go'el". He was to marry a widow and raise up children for the one who died. He was to pay off a debt and buy back (redeem) any land that had been sold or any person who had been sold into slavery. He was to avenge a murder...

All of these illustrate in one way or another, different aspects of what Christ has done...

Then there are the "types" and other illustrations, such as God making the covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15, and Abraham sacrificing Isaac - except he didn't after all, because "God has provided Himself a Lamb". And it says in Hebrews 11 that Abraham in a figure received Isaac back from the dead, as Jesus returned from the dead, but not in a figure...

And so on. The whole of the Bible is filled with His work on the Cross, and folk want to argue over a tiny part of it?!!!

Goodnight

Bless you all

Jeannette

Consider this:

If the punishment for sin (and not the natural consequences of sin) consist in physical death and spiritual death, then there is no punishment after judgment day.

That is because, both physical death and spiritual death occur to sinners before judgment day. So judgment day really does not bring any punishment, unless hellfire is a punishment.

But I would argue that physical death and spiritual death are natural consequences of sin, while hellfire is the actual punishment for sin. As opposed to those who say that physical death and spiritual death are the punishment of sin, while hell fire is the consequence of sin.

Physical death is a natural consequence of Adams sin, since we were removed from the Garden.

Spiritual death is a natural consequence of our own sin, since God must separate Himself from all sin.

Eternal death is the actual punishment for our sin, since judgment day brings punishment for personal actions, and after judgment day is hell fire (eternal death).

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Since the Gift is spiritual life, then the wage must be spiritual also.

If "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life", then the wages of sin must be eternal death, which is hellfire. Eternal life is contrasted with eternal death (hellfire).

Was the wages of Adam's sin hellfire? Or was it death?

God told Adam that the day that he ate he would die. And the day that he ate, he spiritually died. He died a long time later physically, because he did not have access to the tree of life. But the day that he ate he spiritually died.

But God never said that this was punishment. God simply said that it would happen.

And this was a natural consequence of Adam sinning, because God cannot fellowship with those who are in sin. So those who sin must be separated from God by a natural necessity, it is a necessary consequence.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Deu 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings.
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed:

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, especially they of the circumcision:
Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

Abe,

Nobody is denying that Christ suffered for our sins.

But the question is, did Christ suffer the exact and literal suffering that we were going to face?

I would argue, like Jonathon Edwards - Albert Barnes - and Charles Finney argued, that the sufferings of Christ are [b]equivalent[/b] in their value to what we deserve, but they were not [b]exact[/b] in their location, duration, degree, or kind.

The atonement is a substitute suffering. The suffering and death of Christ is substituted with the eternal suffering and eternal death of sinners. It is not [b]exact[/b] in it's location, duration, degree, or kind, but it is [b]equivalent[/b] in it's value.

And since Christ has suffered for the sins of the whole world, the whole world no longer has to suffer for it's sins, but God is able to pardon their eternal debt and forgive them of their sins, because Christ has suffered for them.

You are in error because you think that since Christ has suffered and paid all that is needed and atoned for all sin, you think that universalism is the result.

Great insight Logic:

That is correct Logic,their thinking is all wrong concerning the atonement and a silly argument that doesn't apply to the truth. If Jesus said in John 3:16 "Whosoever Will", or "As many as receive me" and "to those who repent", we can understand by these comments that salvation is a personal one on one relationship with the Lord.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did