BSBKJVWEBYLTASVBBEWMBT4TDBY|HymnsMusicDonate
Menu
Theology

“White Lying” to protect God’s people

N
narrowpath Dec 2, 2007


Jos 2: 2 The king of Jericho was told, "Look! Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land." 3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: "Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land." 4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don't know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them." 6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.)

James 2:25
In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

In the same way in 1: Sam 20:6 David excused himself from Saul’s table pretending to have to attended a new moon sacrifice at his father’s home.

We read that Rahab was recommended by God for her action and that she lied in a strict sense. I wonder if that should apply to us Christians now since we should not lie.

What does the bible tell us New Testament believers about this kind of white lying?

narrowpath

B
BenWilliams Dec 3, 2007

The only thing I know of that addresses that topic directly in the NT is Hebrews 11 where it says that Rahab did what she did by faith.

I'm not sure how this applies exactly.

G
ginnyrose Dec 4, 2007

This story has troubled me for a long time for the same reasons you gave. I have asked others the same question and have not yet been given a satisfactory answer.

But this is what I have concluded: Rahab was a wicked woman who apparently was looking God-ward and in her own way she did what she knew was best, albeit terribly imperfect. This simple act then led to the saving of her family from destruction. She acted on a little bit of faith and progressed from that point on. All of us must start from somewhere and she did. For Rahab this tiny bit proved to be a major act in the life of others as well.

This interpretation might not be very satisfactory, but I reckon this is my opinion until I hear a better one!

ginnyrose

T
theopenlife Dec 4, 2007

Hey there, Ginny. I think you're headed in the right direction. This passage used to trouble me as well, but I have now found an answer which, at least, satisfies me.

In her own words, the woman tells us something of her faith. Read carefully. from verse 8,

[b]I know[/b] that the [b]LORD[/b] has given you the land, that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land are fainthearted because of you. 10 For we have heard [b]how the LORD[/b] dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were on the other side of the Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. 11 And as soon as we heard these things, [b]our hearts melted[/b]; neither did there remain any more courage in anyone because of you, for [b]the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath.[/b]"

Unlike her countrymen, Rahab believed the LORD was the supreme and only God "in heaven above and on earth beneath".

Secondly, she acknowledged that mercy must come from God, and not from the walls of Jericho, because she believed the testimony that God had given the land to the Israelites.

Finally [b]she proved her young faith[/b] by hiding the soldiers. How so? Because doing so revealed her belief that it is better to serve God and risk ones life than to serve the enemies of God.

Of course lying is wrong, and soon she would get plenty of information about those ten commandments! Yet, at the time she probably thought she was doing the most practical thing.

In conclusion, Rahab was not literally justified before God because of [b]what she did[/b], but her faith was [b]justified before men[/b] - that is, proven to be alive - by her willingness to endanger her own life in this misguided service to God. Note that Hebrews 11 does not praise her lying, but rather honors her willingness to receive the spies with peace, as servants of the true God.

"By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace."

She was justified by faith, not by the works, but her faith became visible through the works.

As for lying to protect others, the scriptures shouts a resounding "No!"

"If the truth of God has abounded [b]more through my lie[/b] unto his glory; why am I still also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) [b]Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just[/b]."

We may never justify what we know to be sin.

Obey, and to God be the burden of escape.

R
running2win Dec 4, 2007

Good morning Ginny and Theopenlife.
I too have often been baffled by the account of Rahab lying and God blessing her for what she did. I can't quite agree with either of your oppinions though and this is why; what about the story of the hebrew midwives lying to Pharaoh? God also blessed [i]them[/i] for that too.

Read Exodus 1:15-21

I don't have time to type out the verses now or I would.

I have asked around about this allot and have never gotten a satisfactory answer. Looking forward to more discussion on this subject.

R
ravenmolehil Dec 4, 2007

Here is some interesting insight from: The Abominations of Modern Society 1872 by Rev. T. De Witt Talmage

LIES: WHITE AND BLACK.
There are ten thousand ways of telling a lie. A man's entire life may be a falsehood, while with his lips he may
not once directly falsify. There are those who state what is positively untrue, but afterwards say, "may be,"
softly. These departures from the truth are called "white lies;" but there is really no such thing as a white lie.
The whitest lie that was ever told was as black as perdition. No inventory of public crimes will be sufficient
that omits this gigantic abomination. There are men, high in Church and State, actually useful, self-denying,
and honest in many things, who, upon certain subjects, and in certain spheres, are not at all to be depended
upon for veracity. Indeed, there are multitudes of men who have their notions of truthfulness so thoroughly
perverted, that they do not know when they are lying. With many it is a cultivated sin; with some it seems a
natural infirmity. I have known people who seemed to have been born liars. The falsehoods of their lives
extended from cradle to grave. Prevarication, misrepresentation, and dishonesty of speech appeared in their
first utterances and was as natural to them as any of their infantile diseases, and was a sort of moral croup or
spiritual scarlatina. But many have been placed in circumstances where this tendency has day by day, and
hour by hour, been called to larger development. They have gone from attainment to attainment, and from
class to class, until they have become regularly graduated liars.
The air of the city is filled with falsehoods. They hang pendent from the chandeliers of our finest residences;
they crowd the shelves of some of our merchant princes; they fill the side-walk from curb-stone to brown-stone facing. They cluster around the mechanic's hammer, and blossom from the end of the merchant's
yard-stick, and sit in the doors of churches. Some call them "fiction." Some style them "fabrication." You
might say that they were subterfuge, disguise, delusion, romance, evasion, pretence, fable, deception,
misrepresentation; but, as I am ignorant of anything to be gained by the hiding of a God-defying outrage
under a lexicographer's blanket, I shall chiefly call them what my father taught me to call them--lies.
I shall divide them into agricultural, mercantile, mechanical, and ecclesiastical lies; leaving those that are
professional, social, and political for some other chapter.
First, then, I will speak of those that are more particularly agricultural. There is something in the perpetual
presence of natural objects to make a man pure. The trees never issue "false stock." Wheat-fields are always
honest. Rye and oats never move out in the night, not paying for the place they have occupied. Corn shocks
never make false assignments. Mountain brooks are always "current." The gold on the grain is never
counterfeit. The sunrise never flaunts in false colors. The dew sports only genuine diamonds.
Taking farmers as a class, I believe they are truthful, and fair in dealing, and kind-hearted. But the regions
surrounding our cities do not always send this sort of men to our markets. Day by day there creak through our
streets, and about the market-houses, farm wagons that have not an honest spoke in their wheels, or a truthful
rivet from tongue to tail-board. During the last few years there have been times when domestic economy has
foundered on the farmer's firkin. Neither high taxes, nor the high price of dry-goods, nor the exorbitancy of
labor, could excuse much that the city has witnessed in the behavior of the yeomanry. By the quiet firesides of
Westchester and Bucks counties I hope there may be seasons of deep reflection and hearty repentance.
Rural districts are accustomed to rail at great cities as given up to fraud and every form of unrighteousness;
but our cities do not absorb all the abominations. Our citizens have learned the importance of not always
trusting to the size and style of apples in the top of a farmer's barrel, as an indication of what may be found
farther down. Many of our people are accustomed to watch to see how correctly a bushel of beets is measured;
and there are not many honest milk-cans. Deceptions do not all cluster around city halls. When our cities sit
down and weep over their sins, all the surrounding counties ought to come in and weep with them.
There is often hostility on the part of producers against traders, as though the man who raises the corn were
necessarily more honorable than the grain dealer, who pours it into his mammoth bin. There ought to be no
such hostility. The occupation of one is as necessary as that of the other. Yet producers often think it no wrong
to snatch away from the trader; and they say to the bargain-maker, "You get your money easy." Do they get it
easy? Let those who in the quiet field and barn get their living exchange places with those who stand to-day
amid the excitements of commercial life, and see if they find it so very easy. While the farmer goes to sleep
with the assurance that his corn and barley will be growing all the night, moment by moment adding to his
revenue, the merchant tries to go to sleep, conscious that that moment his cargo may be broken on the rocks,
or damaged by the wave that sweeps clear across the hurricane deck; or that the gold gamblers may, that very
hour, be plotting some monetary revolution, or the burglars be prying open his safe, or his debtors fleeing the
town, or his landlord raising the rent, or the fires kindling on the block that contains all his estate. Easy! is it?
God help the merchants! It is hard to have the palms of the hand blistered with out-door work; but a more
dreadful process when, through mercantile anxieties, the brain is consumed!
In the next place we notice mercantile lies, those before the counter and behind the counter. I will not attempt
to specify the different forms of commercial falsehood. There are merchants who excuse themselves for
deviation from truthfulness because of what they call commercial custom. In other words, the multiplication
and universality of a sin turns it into a virtue. There have been large fortunes gathered where there was not
one drop of unrequited toil in the wine; not one spark of bad temper flashing from the bronze bracket; not one
drop of needle-woman's heart-blood in the crimson plush; while there are other great establishments in which
there is not one door-knob, not one brick, not one trinket, not one thread of lace, but has upon it the mark of
dishonor. What wonder if, some day, a hand of toil that had been wrung, and worn out, and blistered until theskin came off, should be placed against the elegant wall-paper, leaving its mark of blood,--four fingers and a
thumb; or that, some day, walking the halls, there should be a voice accosting the occupant, saying, Six cents
for making a shirt; and, flying the room, another voice should say, Twelve cents for an army blanket; and the
man should try to sleep at night, but ever and anon be aroused, until, getting up on one elbow, he should
shriek out, Who's there?
There are thousands of fortunes made in commercial spheres that are throughout righteous. God will let his
favor rest upon every scroll, every pictured wall, every traceried window; and the joy that flashes from the
lights, and showers from the music, and dances in the children's quick feet, pattering through the hall, will
utter the congratulation of men and the approval of God.
A merchant can, to the last item, be thoroughly honest. There is never any need of falsehood. Yet how many
will, day by day, hour by hour, utter what they know to be wrong. You say that you are selling at less than
cost. If so, then it is right to say it. But did that thing cost you less than what you ask for it? If not, then you
have lied. You say that article cost you twenty-five dollars. Did it? If so, then all right. If it did not, then you
have lied. Suppose you are a purchaser. You are "beating down" the goods. You say that that article, for
which five dollars is charged, is not worth more than four. Is it worth no more than four dollars? Then all
right. If it be worth more, and, for the sake of getting it for less than its value, you wilfully depreciate it, you
have lied. You may call it a sharp trade. The recording angel writes it down on the ponderous tomes of
eternity--"Mr. So and So, merchant on Water street, or in Eighth street, or in State street; or Mrs. So and So,
keeping house on Beacon street, or on Madison avenue, or Rittenhouse square, told one lie." You may
consider it insignificant, because relating to an insignificant purchase. You would despise the man who would
falsify in regard to some great matter, in which the city or the whole country was concerned; but this is only a
box of buttons, or a row of pins, or a case of needles. Be not deceived. The article purchased may be so small
you can put it in your vest pocket, but the sin was bigger than the Pyramids, and the echo of the dishonor will
reverberate through all the mountains of eternity.
You throw out on your counter some specimens of handkerchiefs. Your customer asks, "Is that all silk? no
cotton in it?" You answer, "It is all silk." Was it all silk? If so, all right. But was it partly cotton? Then you
have lied. Moreover, you lost by the falsehood. The customer, though he may live at Lynn, or Doylestown, or
Poughkeepsie, will find out that you defrauded him, and next spring, when he again comes shopping, he will
look at your sign and say: "I will not try there. That is the place where I got that handkerchief." So that, by
that one dishonest bargain, you picked your own pocket and insulted the Almighty.
Would you dare to make an estimate of how many falsehoods in trade were yesterday told by hardware men,
and clothiers, and fruit-dealers, and dry-goods establishments, and importers, and jewellers, and lumbermen,
and coal-merchants, and stationers, and tobacconists? Lies about saddles, about buckles, about ribbons, about
carpets, about gloves, about coats, about shoes, about hats, about watches, about carriages, about
books,--about everything. In the name of the Lord Almighty, I arraign commercial falsehoods as one of the
greatest of abominations in city and town.
In the next place, I notice mechanical lies. There is no class of men who administer more to the welfare of the
city than artisans. To their hand we must look for the building that shelters us, for the garments that clothe us,
for the car that carries us. They wield a widespread influence. There is much derision of what is called
"muscular Christianity;" but in the latter day of the world's prosperity, I think that the Christian will be
muscular. We have the right to expect of those stalwart men of toil the highest possible integrity. Many of
them answer all our expectations, and stand at the front of religious and philanthropic enterprises. But this
class, like the others that I have named, has in it those who lack in the element of veracity. They cannot all be
trusted. In times when the demand for labor is great, it is impossible to meet the demands of the public, or do
work with that promptness and perfection that would at other times be possible. But there are mechanics
whose word cannot be trusted at any time. No man has a right to promise more work than he can do. There are
mechanics who say that they will come Monday, but they do not come until Wednesday. You put work intheir hands that they tell you shall be completed in ten days, but it is thirty. There have been houses built of
which it might be said that every nail driven, every foot of plastering put on, every yard of pipe laid, every
shingle hammered, every brick mortared, could tell of falsehood connected therewith. There are men
attempting to do ten or fifteen pieces of work who have not the time or strength to do more than five or six
pieces; but by promises never fulfilled keep all the undertakings within their own grasp. This is what they call
"nursing" the job.
How much wrong to his soul and insult to God a mechanic would save, if he promised only so much as he
expected to be able to do. Society has no right to ask of you impossibilities.
You cannot always calculate correctly, and you may fail because you cannot get the help that you anticipate.
But now I am speaking of the wilful making of promises that you know you cannot keep. Did you say that
that shoe should be mended, that coat repaired, those brick laid, that harness sewed, that door grained, that
spout fixed, or that window glazed, by Saturday, knowing that you would neither be able to do it yourself nor
get any one else to do it? Then, before God and man, you are a liar. You may say that it makes no particular
difference, and that if you had told the truth you would have lost the job, and that people expect to be
disappointed. But that excuse will not answer. There is a voice of thunder rolling among the drills, and planes,
and shoe-lasts, and shears, which says: "All liars shall have their place in the lake that burneth with fire and
brimstone."
I next notice ecclesiastical lies; that is, falsehoods told for the purpose of advancing churches and sects, or for
the purpose of depleting them. There is no use in asking many a Calvinist what an Arminian believes, for he
will be apt to tell you that the Arminian believes that a man can convert himself; or to ask the Arminian what
the Calvinist believes, for he will tell you that the Calvinist believes that God made some men just to damn
them. There is no need of asking a pedo-Baptist what a Baptist believes, for he will be apt to say that the
Baptist believes immersion to be positively necessary to salvation. It is almost impossible for one
denomination of Christians, without prejudice or misrepresentation, to state the sentiment of an opposing sect.
If a man hates Presbyterians, and you ask him what Presbyterians believe, he will tell you that they believe
that there are infants in hell a span long.
It is strange also how individual churches will sometimes make misstatements about other individual
churches. It is especially so in regard to falsehoods told with reference to prosperous enterprises. As long as a
church is feeble, and the singing is discordant, and the minister, through the poverty of the church, must go
with threadbare coat, and here and there a worshipper sits in the end of a pew having all the seat to himself,
religious sympathizers of other churches will say, "What a pity!" But, let a great day of prosperity come, and
even ministers of the gospel, who ought to be rejoiced at the largeness and extent of the work, denounce, and
misrepresent, and falsify,--starting the suspicion, in regard to themselves, that the reason they do not like the
corn is because it is not ground in their own mill.
How long before we shall learn to be fair in our religious criticisms! The keenest jealousies on earth are
church jealousies. The field of Christian work is so large that there is no need that our hoe-handles hit.
May God extirpate from the world ecclesiastical lies, commercial lies, mechanical lies, and agricultural lies,
and make every man, the world over, to speak truth with his neighbor!

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Dec 4, 2007

Hi narrowpath…

I agree that this passage can be quite confusing. We are taught throughout our lives that all lies are a sin. Then, we read several instances in which a liar is not only considered admirable, but is listed with the great people of faith in Hebrews chapter 11. In addition, we read the following account in 2 Chronicles chapter 18:


[b] 1[/b] Now Jehoshaphat had riches and honour in abundance, and joined affinity with Ahab.
[b] 2[/b] And after certain years he went down to Ahab to Samaria. And Ahab killed sheep and oxen for him in abundance, and for the people that he had with him, and persuaded him to go up with him to Ramothgilead.
[b] 3[/b] And Ahab king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat king of Judah, Wilt thou go with me to Ramothgilead? And he answered him, I am as thou art, and my people as thy people; and we will be with thee in the war.
[b] 4[/b] And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Israel, Enquire, I pray thee, at the word of the LORD to day.
[b] 5[/b] Therefore the king of Israel gathered together of prophets four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for God will deliver it into the king's hand.
[b] 6[/b] But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might enquire of him?
[b] 7[/b] And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he never prophesied good unto me, but always evil: the same is Micaiah the son of Imla. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.
[b] 8[/b] And the king of Israel called for one of his officers, and said, Fetch quickly Micaiah the son of Imla.
[b] 9[/b] And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah sat either of them on his throne, clothed in their robes, and they sat in a void place at the entering in of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets prophesied before them.
[b]10[/b] And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah had made him horns of iron, and said, Thus saith the LORD, With these thou shalt push Syria until they be consumed.
[b]11[/b] And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
[b]12[/b] And the messenger that went to call Micaiah spake to him, saying, Behold, the words of the prophets declare good to the king with one assent; let thy word therefore, I pray thee, be like one of their's, and speak thou good.
[b]13[/b] And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, even what my God saith, that will I speak.
[b]14[/b] And when he was come to the king, the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And he said, Go ye up, and prosper, and they shall be delivered into your hand.
[b]15[/b] And the king said to him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou say nothing but the truth to me in the name of the LORD?
[b]16[/b] Then he said, I did see all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master; let them return therefore every man to his house in peace.
[b]17[/b] And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would not prophesy good unto me, but evil?
[b]18[/b] Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
[b]19[/b] And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
[b]20[/b] Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
[b]21[/b] And he said, I will go out, [b]and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets[/b]. And the Lord said, [b]Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do[/b] even so.
[b]22[/b] Now therefore, behold, [b]the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets[/b], and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
[b]23[/b] Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near, and smote Micaiah upon the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?
[b]24[/b] And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see on that day when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself.
[b]25[/b] Then the king of Israel said, Take ye Micaiah, and carry him back to Amon the governor of the city, and to Joash the king's son;
[b]26[/b] And say, Thus saith the king, Put this fellow in the prison, and feed him with bread of affliction and with water of affliction, until I return in peace.
[b]27[/b] And Micaiah said, If thou certainly return in peace, then hath not the LORD spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, all ye people.
[b]28 [/b] So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah went up to Ramothgilead.
[b]29 [/b]And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, I will disguise myself, and I will go to the battle; but put thou on thy robes. So the king of Israel disguised himself; and they went to the battle.
[b]30[/b] Now the king of Syria had commanded the captains of the chariots that were with him, saying, Fight ye not with small or great, save only with the king of Israel.
[b]31[/b] And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots saw Jehoshaphat, that they said, It is the king of Israel. Therefore they compassed about him to fight: but Jehoshaphat cried out, and the LORD helped him; and God moved them to depart from him.
[b]32[/b] For it came to pass, that, when the captains of the chariots perceived that it was not the king of Israel, they turned back again from pursuing him.
[b]33[/b] And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: therefore he said to his chariot man, Turn thine hand, that thou mayest carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.
[b]34[/b] And the battle increased that day: howbeit the king of Israel stayed himself up in his chariot against the Syrians until the even: and about the time of the sun going down he died.
The definition of lying is extremely varied from culture to culture. I have met certain Indian believers in college who told me that they were amazed at the HONESTY of Americans. Even unbelievers, they said, are honest. The cops and authorities, they concluded, are not corrupt in America (when compared with India). These believers told me that many Indians almost pride themselves on being “good liars” when trying to sell something.

At what point does a statement become a lie?

Is it when you say that you’re going to do something and then do not follow through? When I was in high school, I told my pastor that I was going to go door-to-door to evangelize a certain poor neighborhood in our community. The pastor decided that he wanted to go with me. On the way there, the car broke down. I didn’t have a cell phone back then, and I was far from a phone booth or house in which I could call the Church. By the time that I walked and called the Church (about 15 minutes after I was supposed to be there), no one answered the phone. About an hour later, I was able to make it to the Church building. The pastor showed up and listened to my “excuse.” He told me that he was disappointed that I “lied” about the time in which I would arrive to the Church. As a new believer (and as a teenager), I wrestled with quite a bit of condemnation over that situation. The pastor actually brought up that situation to me privately for several years. He said, “[i]Once a liar, always a liar[/i].” He explained that once someone tells a “lie,” it takes years for the trust to be restored within his mind. His words hurt me deeply. Ironically, this was a man who would utter “prophecies” to people that never came to pass.

It took me quite some time to overcome the words of the pastor. I never meant to deceive. If it weren’t for a faulty alternator, I would have made it to the Church building on time. After much prayer, I finally realized that the pastor was incorrect in his obstinate assertion about a “lie.” According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, a lie is only a lie when there it is a false statement combined with an intention to “deceive” or “mislead.” A statement can be made that proves incorrect, but that doesn’t make it a “lie.” A pastor who preaches (in good faith with complete honesty) that people should “tithe” to the local Church should not be called a “liar” by non-tithing believers. He is simply “incorrect” in the opinion of those who feel free from the binding obligation of a tithe. This can be understood by many of our doctrinal differences. We should not point a finger and utter the word “LIE” simply because we perceive a doctrine to be false (if the doctrine is speculative). Of course, we have people here at SermonIndex who feel the “liberty” to point such a finger at many of us based upon a doctrinal disagreement. There are things that are obvious…but there are doctrinal issues that are not completely certain. We have no more right to label those who teach such things (a pre-trib rapture, women teachers, celebrators of Christmas, etc…) as LIARS or TEACHERS OF LIES than they do to label our beliefs a LIE (based upon their assumptions or conclusions from the Word of God).

In the latter passage (from 2 Chronicles), we could question whether or not these “host of heaven” (in verses 18-22) were angels or demons. We know that Satan approached the throne of God in the book of Job. We know that God permitted the destruction of Job’s family, property and body at the suggestion of Satan. However, we don’t know who this “host of heaven” refers to. However, we do know that lying is wrong. We find other references in the Word that speak against lying. Is it always a sin? Did Corrie ten Boom sin when they hid Jews in [i]The Hiding Place[/i] while feigning ignorance to the Nazis? Was Esther “lying” when she withheld her ethnicity from her husband? Was the man who lied to his son in the Italian film [i]Life is Beautiful[/i] (telling his young son that the concentration camp was a game) justified by the outcome of his “lie” (the protection of his son’s mind from the horrors of the holocaust)? Was David a “liar” because he feigned insanity?

Alas – we might not know. We know that we should not lie with the intent to deceive. Hopefully (and prayerfully) we should never be in a position in which we have to choose from uttering a truth that could result in the death or pain of others. Perhaps in such an occasion, it would be better for us to learn from Jesus’ example and just remain “silent?”

:-)

B
BenWilliams Dec 4, 2007

One thing that I have wondered, which is fairly similar to this situation, is during the holocaust, we know that many people had hidden rooms, and things like that, and the germans would come in and ask them if they were hiding Jews, and they would tell them no.

I wonder how it works though, because we know that there is the story of the sheep and the goats, which refers to those that help the Jews, and those that don't.

So I wonder if that somehow ties into the whole issue, that it was the Jews she helped, albeit by lying, the scripture says that you will be rewarded for any help at all given to a Jew because they are Jesus brethren.

Any thoughts?

G
ginnyrose Dec 5, 2007

running,

Personally, I like theopenlife's explanation: it reflects my own. What is there about it you disagree with?

Most of the posts to this thread quote OT characters. They were under a different covenant...could that make a difference on how God looked at it? What about Peter when he denied his Lord? What we learn from that incident is that he had issues which Jesus addressed later and had it resolved which resulted in Peter being enboldened in speaking out for his Lord later.

You have lying to protect someone's life and if I recall, Richard Wurbrand addressed this issue in "How to Form an Underground Church". How do you deal with this issue: authorites demand to know the whereabouts of someone so they can arrest him/her and harm him/her. What do you say? If I recall Wurmbrand's answer, he says those guys are asking a question that is none of their business and do not deserve to be answered. Reckon, I will need to listen to those tapes again...On the other hand, what the Scriptures say is what counts and should be the determining factor in how one handles this...I just hope to God I will never be in a position like this.

On the other hand...one time I worked for the US Census and were told how to fill out our time forms: the official rule was only so many visits in one hour. So, if we did more then that to put down a different time to be in compliance with that rule. Since then this has bothered me: it was not honest. If I would have put down what really was accomplished in that hour, my supervisor could have gotten into trouble...sigh

Interesting thoughts...hope to hear more...

ginnyrose

D
daniel- Dec 5, 2007

That is an interesting topic.

What do you make out of the story in 1. Samuel 16, where God himself commands Samuel to use a pretense in order to anoint David?

1 And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons. 2 And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it , he will kill me. And the LORD said, Take an heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the LORD. 3 And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will shew thee what thou shalt do: and thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee. 4 And Samuel did that which the LORD spake, and came to Bethlehem. And the elders of the town trembled at his coming, and said, Comest thou peaceably? 5 And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD

Ginnyrose, I face a similar situation at work. We have workers that are only allowed to work 10 hours a day legally. But sometimes, as life goes, they work longer. So what now? We have a program where I have to put the hours in. What should I do?

What would you do? Would you use a pretense when having a specific purpose, that is not self-centered? Would you take the blame for something you have not done in order to protect someone? Do you believe Jesus would have done that? How many things did Jesus in secret in order to help?
What if you saw someone doing something illegal. Do you go to the police ?

The letter kills but the Spirit makes alive.

Daniel

sermonindex Dec 5, 2007

The word MOTIVE comes to my mind on this topic. Motive has everything to do with the condition of the heart.
It doesn't matter what men may think of our actions but God knows our heart and this is what we will be judged by, the condition of our heart.

The tithing subject came up in an earlier comment. When we give for God's purpose, our motive is everything. If we retain any tithe of what God has given us, then what is our motive. Is it because we don't think we can financially survive if we do? I hear many quote the passage give as it is purposed in your heart. That speaks of motive. If a man post of SI, what is his motive? What ever we do do we do all for the purpose and glory of God to have our motive right before HIM. If we could keep our motives pure all the time we would be perfect. Jesus did the will of the Father and IS perfect. Only by HIS love and HIS strength can we have the right motive anytime and we still have the flesh prompting us to satisfy ourself and the flesh works against the SPIRIT. Not by our power and our our might but by my SPIRIT sayeth the LORD. If we lack HIS SPIRIT, then the flesh continually works in our body to satisfy self and it shows. We must be born again.
John 12:4-6
4 But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5 "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
What was the difference between Judas and Rahab. Would you say it was motive?

WHY DID PAUL SAY THIS?
1 Cor 4:1-5
4:1 So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

And this:
1 Thess 2:3-6
3 For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you. 4 On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts. 5 You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed-God is our witness. 6 We were not looking for praise from men, not from you or anyone else.

and this:
James 4:3-6
3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? 6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

"God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble."


If we are hid in Christ, we will be hammered by the world.


G
ginnyrose Dec 5, 2007

Daniel,

So, if a body posts a time different from reality, can one be charge with fraud?

ginnyrose

G
ginnyrose Dec 5, 2007

Any thoughts?

Yes: just hope to God I will never have to encounter any situation like this. But having said this I know what [b]that[/b] means! Never say never because it will surely happen, sooner or later.

On the other hand, I feel certain the Lord will in that moment give us what we need to do the right thing - if we do not run ahead of Him.

My thoughts, but would love to hear more...

ginnyrose

B
BenWilliams Dec 5, 2007

ginnyrose wrote:

If I recall Wurmbrand's answer, he says those guys are asking a question that is none of their business and do not deserve to be answered.

I think this sums up my opinion of the issue, I think I have decided on this.

Let's say that you were in the situation hiding the Jews, and they burst in on you and asked the question, "are you hiding any Jews here?"

I think that I could with a clear conscience say no, because you see I died a long time ago on the cross with Christ, and it is not I that is alive, but Christ. So it is Christ who is hiding those Jews and not me.

Dead men can't hide people?! It's just not possible.

I'm sure some people will disagree with this idea at least a bit, but I think that it is true, and they without understanding the perspective would not find any Jews that Christ is hiding with my dead body. LOL

Any thoughts on this?

I
iansmith Dec 5, 2007

God doesn't need our lies to defend his name... in fact, our white lies may be doing more offense to Christ's glory than establishing it.

sermonindex Dec 5, 2007

ginnyrose wrote:
You have lying to protect someone's life and if I recall, Richard Wurbrand addressed this issue in "How to Form an Underground Church". How do you deal with this issue: authorites demand to know the whereabouts of someone so they can arrest him/her and harm him/her. What do you say? If I recall Wurmbrand's answer, he says those guys are asking a question that is none of their business and do not deserve to be answered. Reckon, I will need to listen to those tapes again...On the other hand, what the Scriptures say is what counts and should be the determining factor in how one handles this...I just hope to God I will never be in a position like this.


I hate lying almost more than any other sin, except hurting children or the elderly or people in general - but I have this "Underground Church" in booklet form, that ginnyrose mentioned here - and if it takes a lie to protect my brother or sister or 'anyone' in the circumstances my hero - Richard Wurmbrand was in - I think I wouldn't have a second thought about it.
But that's the only scenario where I could personally justify lying - only to protect another.

But I also pray the same - that I'm not put in that situation - Amen.

sermonindex Dec 5, 2007


iansmith wrote:
God doesn't need our lies to defend his name... in fact, our white lies may be doing more offense to Christ's glory than establishing it.

I must have a computer clitch and evidently I can't read all the post on this thread. Someone please email me the post where someone said we must lie to defend the Lord's name where I can comment that post too.

B
BenWilliams Dec 5, 2007

iansmith wrote:

God doesn't need our lies to defend his name... in fact, our white lies may be doing more offense to Christ's glory than establishing it.

So what would you do, answer them and tell them there are Jews in the house, or just say nothing?

Both of those condemning you to giving them the information you want.
----------------------

On another note, I am still considering this further, and I'm not sure that I can come to a conclusion on it.

I would probably do any number of things, from acting classically insane, to just changing the subject over and over, or whatever. I might just stand there silently.

Rest assured though, for you who pray you will not encounter such a situation, the days are shortly upon us when you will encounter it. I pray that you will be prepared beforehand for hiding the Jews, and the consequences of it.

I have spent a long time thinking about this, one thing I have thought of, is if they ask me a question, I just speak to them in another language about something totally unrelated. Or just answering some other question in the same language.

Or maybe just repeating over and over, I do not understand, I do not understand.

T
theopenlife Dec 6, 2007

Another language, I'll remember that!

I have thought to ask the soldiers, frankly, "why are so many Jews hiding in people's houses? Are even the children criminals?"

This would probably frustrate them, or injure me, but I would like to add to the soldiers, "If you were a child running from people wanting to harm you, I would hide you."

Perhaps God would convict them and they would leave ashamed. Perhaps they would leave with my head! :-(

W
wj3000 Dec 6, 2007

I don't think that we're actually discussing situations where God has blessed someone because they lied. We're talking about situations where God has blessed someone despite their lies.
Rahab was commended for her faith, not the lie she told. God blessed her despite the fact that she lied.
The midwives in Exodus who were brought up earlier were not blessed because they lied to pharaoh. They treated well by God because they feared Him.
btw, all of these things are evident I think when we actually read not just the passage posted, but the surrounding context as well.
Also, when Samuel goes to Jesse to anoint the new king David and God tells him to say to the people that he's come to sacrifice, that wasn't a lie. He did come to sacrifice. He invited Jesse and his sons to that sacrifice. I don't consider this to be lying by omission either.
It's like when Moses is instructed by God to tell the pharaoh that the Israelites want to go into the desert to offer sacrifices for a few days. God had already said that it was his intent to free his people, but He also knew that pharaoh wouldn't let the people go sacrifice, and thus it wasn't a lie Moses was telling. The fact is we don't know what would have happened had pharaoh said yes.

So in all of these instances, God has not instructed anyone to tell a lie, and no one is being rewarded for telling a lie. They are being rewarded despite telling a lie.. in the instances where someone has actually told a lie.

God can bring blessing whenever he wants. I've lied before, and God has brought blessing into my life through my faith in His son despite all of my shortcomings.

As far as all of this hypothetical Jew-hiding discussion, I think in this world we're sometimes forced to choose between two wrong things. It is our sin which creates this scenario though, not God. Sometimes other people's sins can cause us to be confronted with only sinful options.. or so it seems. One of my favorite passages says..

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 1 Cor 10:13

So it appears that God always provides a way of escape.. Maybe this is only a partial answer, but it is good enough for me. I have to have faith in God that one day I'll understand all of His ways more clearly, most likely this will happen when I meet Him in glory.

This discussion is locked.

Archived
1 of 32 posts