Rick Warren Tells Pastors To Get Rid Of “Troublemakers”

Found this to be interesting. Rick Warren considers "trouble makers" to be those in churches who raise honest, biblical questions about the entire "Purpose Driven" movement, "seeker sensitive" churches and other teachings of his.

Krispy

[b]Rick Warren Tells Pastor To Get Rid Of “Troublemakers”[/b]
[i]By David Cloud

In the November 14 issue of his Ministry Toolbox, Rick Warren told pastors to get rid of troublemakers. He begins with the erroneous statement that the Bible "talks more about the unity of the church than it does about either heaven or hell."

The truth is, the Bible speaks more about heaven and hell than about unity and it speaks far more about the importance of sound doctrine and practice and separation from error than it does about unity. Warren makes no distinction between trouble that comes because of heresy and self-will and trouble that comes because of the truth.

God's people are nowhere instructed to blindly follow pastors or to accept a "unity" based on anything other than the truth. They have an obligation before God to "prove all things" (1 Thess. 5:21) and to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3).

In a fashion that is one of his fearful trademarks, Warren lifts Scripture out of context to prove his point. First he uses 2 Timothy 2:23-26, which only deals with how to handle "foolish and unlearned questions" asked by those who are in the snare of the devil. It has nothing to do with legitimate biblical questions asked by sincere Christians who care about God's Word.

Next he uses 2 Timothy 2:14, which is a warning about striving about "words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers." Again, this is a warning about false teaching, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with sincere biblical challenges.

He also uses Titus 2:15, which is an exhortation to preachers to be bold in preaching the truth but which says absolutely nothing about kicking people out of the church because they love the truth.

He also uses Titus 3:1, which is an exhortation to be subject to the authorities that God has put in this world, but by comparing Scripture with Scripture we know that it does not entail blind submission (i.e., Acts 5:29).

Finally Warren uses Titus 3:10-11, which contains instruction about how to deal with heretics or false teachers who are causing division on the basis of their heresies. It has nothing whatsoever to do with those in the church who love the truth and who are sincerely trying to be faithful to the Bible.

Rick Warren is the heretic who is causing divisions among God's people through heresies. It is he that should be rejected. The fact that his Southern Baptist Convention keeps its mouth shut in the face of his heresies is irrefutable evidence that it is deeply compromised and is not faithful to God's Word. [/i]

Many thought the Apostle Paul was a trouble maker in the church. Paul went from church to church and at times he called sin sin. He even told some in the church you are acting like you are not a Christian at all. I can't read in no way how the scriptures teach that the Apostle Paul was tolerant, as the world today says Christian should be. And the world calls them trouble makers for imitating Paul. The reason they are imitating Paul is the same Spirit drives them that drove Paul.
Rom 8:9-11

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
NKJV

One instance as Christians were being converted under Paul preaching by the power of God the silversmith's income was threatened and they held a town meeting, because Paul was getting in their pocketbook, which was what they were most concerned about.
Acts 19:24-27
24 A silversmith named Demetrius, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought in no little business for the craftsmen. 25 He called them together, along with the workmen in related trades, and said: "Men, you know we receive a good income from this business. 26 And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that man-made gods are no gods at all. 27 There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited, and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty."
(from New International Version)

Was Paul a trouble maker? I don't think so although he angered many.

[b]2 Timothy 4:3[/b] [i]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they [b]heap to themselves teachers[/b], having itching ears...[/i]

Has there ever been a time in the last 2,000 years when the church has seen a "heap of teachers" like we see right now? Just watch TBN...

Krispy

Warren supporters will charge lovers of the truth of God's word with being judgmental, causing disunity, as if unity can exist without truth, say they lack love, whatever that is supposed to mean etc.

...yet Rick Warren is the one causing division by his heretical teachings.

But another point not to miss in all this is the glaring examples of how badly Warren mis-handles and mis-understands scripture. He handles scripture like a party clown handles balloons, creating all kinds of animals and creatures by twisting and stretching.

Krispy

I due live by eating the chicken and spitting out the bones

As is good practice... but

let's be sure we are not dying of poison hidden in the meat we do swallow.

In Christ - Jim

I found the exact transcript of what Warren wrote. On the surface you could read this and say "yea, sounds good". But the fact is, unity is NOT talked about more than heaven and hell. As for disunity, Warren has stated in past writings and sermons that he considers those who oppose his teachings, and oppose the Purpose Driven Church movement to be "trouble makers". He has, in writing, stated that "fundies" (fundamentalists... like me) who are in a church that is trying to bring in the PDC movement and try to oppose it should be let go from the fellowship. He calls them "trouble makers".

This was discussed at length on this forum about a year ago. His exact quotes, etc.

So even tho this may look good on the surface, there is an underlying history here... those who raise questions, those who challenge are to be considered divisive.

Krispy

[b]What the Bible says about handling disunity[/b]
[i]by Rick Warren

There’s an unseen factor in Saddleback Church’s growth that most people overlook – church unity. God blesses a unified church. Many churches have tremendous potential, but they never achieve what God desires because the members spend all their time fighting with one another. All of the energy is focused inward.

[b]The Bible talks more about unity of the church than it does about either heaven or hell.[/b] It’s that important. Churches are made up of people, and there are no perfect people. So people get into conflict with each other. As pastors, we need to learn how to deal with those situations. Specifically, we’re called to do these six things when disunity threatens our church.

1. Avoid situations that cause arguments. The Bible says in 2 Timothy 2:23-24 (NIV): "Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." Pastors should avoid causing arguments. As a leader you need to set the example for your whole church on this issue. When a minor argument comes along, refuse to get in the middle of it. You don’t need to have an opinion on everything. Some discussions don’t deserve your participation. Focus your conversation on topics that matter.

2. Teach troublemakers to repent. 2 Timothy 2:25-26 (NIV) says, "Those who oppose him [the pastor] he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." Most pastors don’t like confrontations. But we can’t run from them. As the pastor, you must gently instruct those creating dissention and opposing the teaching in the church.

3. Warn those causing trouble that their negative words hurt others. 2 Timothy 2:14 (NIV) says, "Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words. It is of no value and only ruins those who listen." People need to know that their words have consequences.

4. Make a plea for harmony and unity. Paul did this in Philippians 4:2 (NIV). He said, "I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord." There were two very strong willed women in the church named Euodias and Syntyche who were causing so much friction in the church that Paul’s plea for them to stay united is in the Bible. Fighting in a church doesn’t just affect the combatants; it influences the whole church as people start taking sides. Just like Paul did, at times, you’ll need to make a plea for unity directly to those causing problems.

5. Rebuke with authority if necessary. Paul says in Titus 2:15-3:1, "These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you. Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good." You may need to confront the contentious person as well.

6. Remove them from the church if they ignore two warnings. Titus 3:10-11 says, "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." No pastor wants to do this, but at last resort you may need to remove the contentious person from the church. You’ve got to protect the unity of your church. If that means getting rid of troublemakers, do it.

The Bible teaches that as the church grows, Satan will do everything he can to cause division. Even well meaning people, even believers, can be used as tools of Satan to hurt the body of Christ. As pastors, as shepherds of God’s people, it’s our job to protect our congregations from Satan’s greatest weapon – disunity. It’s not always easy, but it’s what we’ve been called to do.[/i]

Ginny... I would hope if I ever get a chance to sit down across a lunch with Rick Warren that the conversation would be warm and pleasant. Riddled with disagreement, of course, but pleasant none-the-less.

Kinda like Al Sharpton. Personally I think Al Sharpton is an idiot when it comes to some of his policies and such. However, I've seen him interviewed, etc... and found him to be a very personable man with a great sense of humor. I think I would actually enjoy spending an hour over lunch with him. I would completely disagree with most everything he stands for... but I think if we all look hard enough we can find something we like about anyone.

A person with a sense of humor can get a long ways with me... no matter how far apart we may be on everything else.

Krispy

i think one thing that needs to be mentioned is that the word divisive in the NIV actually is the word heretic. it is not talking about just a man who disagrees with an issue or something like that, but someone who actually is teaching clear heresy. look at it for yourselves..

I dont support the NIV in the slightest, but in this case it is correct. If you read these passages in context in the KJV, that is what it says as well... just different wording.

Krispy

This PDL or CGM is an epidemic in church across America and pastors are bending their knee to this "heresy". Pastors subscribe to this method to stroke there own ego's, when I hear this type of non sense coming from these pastors, I often would like to send the the sermon Ten Shekels and a shirt. The end to their means is themselves not the Lord.

I meet with my pastor after my family decided to leave and his own words, "We need to culturally relevant to our community" here is an example on how the church is relevant:

"If you prefer a worship band over the choir and a smaller worship environment, our Venue service offers a live praise band, coffee, and a live Hi-Definition broadcast of Pastor Tom's message on a 16' screen - all in a laid back atmosphere.[/qoute] another quote

"People don't come to church to watch TV, they come for a live experience."

1 Cor. 9:22 " ...to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some."

This is verse is the catalyst they use, to give them all the reason to do what they feel is relevant. This was the same verse my pastor used with me to describe why they do the things they do. If that is the case, then everything else should be exceptable.

mike

I think the biggest shock was finding out, Rick Warren was a member of the CFR and Oxford Analytica.

Oy, ma ma mia, that's Major!

I don't know why that was a bigger shock to me than his P.E.A.C.E. plan being tied to the U.N. and him having Hillary to his Church -- but it was.

I must be a "trouble-maker". :-?

I have been through the 40 days of purpose class twice and it has some good stuff in it. God does have a purpose for each one of us. It is reported that Rick Warren has given 90% of his income off his book sales back to the church, which is much much money. But when he begins to compromise with the world and is letting the world speak to what is suppose to be the regenerated church, instead of reaching the lost, with the gospel of a regeneration in the heart, he lost me. I definitely[u] could not[/u] knowingly attend any church service where the Pastor knew about such, let alone allowed and invited such a worldly speaker that promoted UNGODLY stuff and was still allowed to speak about any subject, good or bad, unless the speech was about repentance of their sins. If it happened at the local body where I attend next Sunday and I don't think it will, I would walk out of the service and search for one that held fast to the WORD and truth. So I guess I'm a troublemaker too. Of course yall already knew that didn't you.