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False prophet preacing FLUFF??

B
brentw Dec 14, 2007

I was watching Paul Washers video yesterday...loved it!! I am going to ask about false prophets and I know it probably is posted somewhere here...I realized theres probably nothing new that can be wrote about here anyway. But someone will probably still tell me so anyhow..

Paul Washer was talking about false prophets in the sense of preaching sugar coated sermons.
"Peace, peace when there is no peace"...if a pastor was always preaching "FLUFF" and sometimes preaching convicting sermons would you call that a false prophet??

sermonindex Dec 14, 2007


"Shall I not visit for these things? saith the Lord: shall not my should be avenged on such a nation as this? A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?"
-Jeremiah 5:29-31

"bear rule by [b]their means[/b]" if a preacher is able to preach without God then this is looked upon not well by God. If people are preaching "fluff" then we can possibly ascertain that they are not preaching what the Lord is telling them or wanting them to preach.

Nothing is worse then multitudes of preachers who are capable and can bear their own rule with erudition and charisma. Heaven weeps when there are no weak men in the pulpit who hear soley from the God of heaven.

H
hmmhmm Dec 14, 2007

I think some will have more wisdom in answering this, but i heard from a sermon from Zac Poonen latly, that he mentioned something that stuck with me, he was speaking about Jeremiah , and he said basically Jeremiah was preaching the same message for 40 years.

and maybe some of you has recived a message from God but you changed it because someone thought you should be more "balanced".

maybe in some cases yes, but if God has given a certain message to you, you should stick with it as Jeremiah did.

NLT

[b]Jer 20:8 Whenever I speak, the words come out in a violent outburst. "Violence and destruction!" I shout. So these messages from the LORD have made me a household joke.
Jer 20:9 And I can't stop! If I say I'll never mention the LORD or speak in his name, his word burns in my heart like a fire. It's like a fire in my bones! I am weary of holding it in![/b]

Just some thoughts....

Christian

sermonindex Dec 15, 2007

Well I would first have to say, there are no such things as 'prophets' in the old testament, or gospels since of the word, but there are many teachers and preachers and I would have to say that there are (according to scripture) many of those out there.

Let me also add that these people don't know or think of themselves as false teachers. Their as zealous as the next in teaching or preaching their message.

I think that in most cases, like Jude for example, the people that they were talking about were the Jews who were trying put the new converts, (mostly jews) back under the law, so they were mixing law and grace and corrupting people with their false teaching and preaching, same as today, nothing has changed.

sermonindex Dec 15, 2007


brentw wrote:
I was watching Paul Washers video yesterday...loved it!! I am going to ask about false prophets and I know it probably is posted somewhere here...I realized theres probably nothing new that can be wrote about here anyway. But someone will probably still tell me so anyhow..

Paul Washer was talking about false prophets in the sense of preaching sugar coated sermons.
"Peace, peace when there is no peace"...if a pastor was always preaching "FLUFF" and sometimes preaching convicting sermons would you call that a false prophet??

Ahhh, but there is peace, it is the gospel of peace, and for now God is not the judge, he is the prince of peace. It is good news, after all that's what gospel means, good news. This scripture that you quoted was when Israel was about to be judged as a nation. This is the age of GRACE. The church age. A great mystery to the prophets in the old testament. Daniel was not able to understand it.

For now all sin is covered. Jesus paid the debt on the cross. It IS a time of peace and grace no matter what the hell fire and brimstone preachers will tell you.

sermonindex Dec 15, 2007

For now all sin is covered. Jesus paid the debt on the cross. It IS a time of peace and grace no matter what the hell fire and brimstone preachers will tell you.

Brother,

You have fully committed yourself to dispensational teachings which is foreign to the early church and the reformers. "This" what you are saying is another gospel which does not save from sin. There is only peace for those that accept and come to Christ, for those outside their portion is only weeping and gnasing of teeth, the bible says there is no peace for the wicked. God's wrath abides on the children of disobedience "right now" if you look carefully enough in the new testament you can find this teaching.

I am not meaning to come down hard on you but this is very important, I implore you to read your new testament and when you come to those "hard verses" underline them in a bible, and when you have done that for the entire new testament read through them all together and perhaps things will come together more.

The sad fact is many people teaching this new gospel are experts on skipping over all 100 scriptures that speak of God's anger, wrath on sin and sinners in the new testament.

But oh how much more glorious does grace appear in light of this if we are in the beloved.

sermonindex Dec 15, 2007


sermonindex wrote:
For now all sin is covered. Jesus paid the debt on the cross. It IS a time of peace and grace no matter what the hell fire and brimstone preachers will tell you.

Brother,

You have fully committed yourself to dispensational teachings which is foreign to the early church and the reformers. "This" what you are saying is another gospel which does not save from sin. There is only peace for those that accept and come to Christ, for those outside their portion is only weeping and gnasing of teeth, the bible says there is no peace for the wicked. God's wrath abides on the children of disobedience "right now" if you look carefully enough in the new testament you can find this teaching.

I am not meaning to come down hard on you but this is very important, I implore you to read your new testament and when you come to those "hard verses" underline them in a bible, and when you have done that for the entire new testament read through them all together and perhaps things will come together more.

The sad fact is many people teaching this new gospel are experts on skipping over all 100 scriptures that speak of God's anger, wrath on sin and sinners in the new testament.

But oh how much more glorious does grace appear in light of this if we are in the beloved.

I am a dispensationalist in my beliefs. I do believe that there are certain dispensations in which God deals with a certain people or world for that matter in a different way than in other times, and it all has to do with the word of God. God's word is finished in it's entirety, so there no need for prophets, etc....

This being another gospel is absurd. if it were another gospel I guess you would have to throw out the word of God because if you study it long enough you would have to realize it is the simple truth. God has and does deal differently with people in certain times and time frames, it's not really that big an issue, it's just good scholarship.

For God so loved THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten son. That seems cliche, but it's the simple truth, he don't just love the jews, or the greeks, or the geeks, or the freaks. He loves everyone and everyone is predestined for heaven, but it is our choice to turn from him or except him. Whosoever will may come. His blood has predestined the whole world.

I understand that there are many that have gone after the way of Baalam, and are preaching a feel good message only to tickle the ears of the people, so they can line their pockets.

I still have to say that the gospel is good news, and we are living in the best DISPENSATION. ;-)

C
c52 Dec 16, 2007

Peace?, read Mt. 10. Our King is not here, this world is being ruled by the enemy. Peace? I beg to differ!...

sermonindex Dec 16, 2007

For now all sin is covered. Jesus paid the debt on the cross. It IS a time of peace and grace no matter what the hell fire and brimstone preachers will tell you.

It obviously is not a time and peace for those who are without Christ, because only those In Christ have peace with God that WE will not be called to God's wrath, for He took our wrath.

Why would you not want to warn those without Christ about His coming wrath or eternal damnation?

This IS teh most difficult time for any Christian through out all ages, for there is a great responsibility on our shoulders....

Chiefosinners, Have you considered the following:

Chiefosinners.

Reading Hebrews 11 along with what is said for the Saints in the NT, I don’t believe anytime is greater or more easy or better. OT Saints, although under law, still lived by Faith. The life of Faith is not easy, and will become I believe even more difficult through out the end of time.

We have the Holy Spirit in us, yes that does make it somewhat easier then the OT Saints who according to Hebrews 11 the author makes a comment that the world is not even worthy of them. That should make us even more ashamed.


Acts 9:16
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.


Philippians 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Galatians 6:12
As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

Acts 5:41
And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.


2 Thessalonians 1:
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

1 Peter 4:16
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

1 Peter 4:12-14
12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

1 Peter 3:14
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1 Peter 2:22-24
22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:


James 5:10
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

Hebrews 11:24-26
24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2 Timothy 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Yea, and all tht preach the Gospel to teh Lost will suffer persecution and death....Witness's mean martyr. Now we have this witness within us, Christ Himself, operating in our lives through the Holy Spirit. A no fluff message!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did ;-)

sermonindex Dec 16, 2007


Katy-did wrote:
For now all sin is covered. Jesus paid the debt on the cross. It IS a time of peace and grace no matter what the hell fire and brimstone preachers will tell you.

It obviously is not a time and peace for those who are without Christ, because only those In Christ have peace with God that WE will not be called to God's wrath, for He took our wrath.

Why would you not want to warn those without Christ about His coming wrath or eternal damnation?

This IS teh most difficult time for any Christian through out all ages, for there is a great responsibility on our shoulders....

Chiefosinners, Have you considered the following:

Chiefosinners.

Reading Hebrews 11 along with what is said for the Saints in the NT, I don’t believe anytime is greater or more easy or better. OT Saints, although under law, still lived by Faith. The life of Faith is not easy, and will become I believe even more difficult through out the end of time.

We have the Holy Spirit in us, yes that does make it somewhat easier then the OT Saints who according to Hebrews 11 the author makes a comment that the world is not even worthy of them. That should make us even more ashamed.


Acts 9:16
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.


Philippians 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Galatians 6:12
As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

Acts 5:41
And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.


2 Thessalonians 1:
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

1 Peter 4:16
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

1 Peter 4:12-14
12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

1 Peter 3:14
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1 Peter 2:22-24
22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:


James 5:10
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

Hebrews 11:24-26
24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2 Timothy 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Yea, and all tht preach the Gospel to teh Lost will suffer persecution and death....Witness's mean martyr. Now we have this witness within us, Christ Himself, operating in our lives through the Holy Spirit. A no fluff message!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did ;-)

Well I don't apologize for my stand. "Perfect love casteth out all fear, he that feareth is not made perfect in love". I realize what the early church went through and even in the last century more have been martyred for the name of Christ than in any other time, but this does'nt mean their saved. Im willing to bet that there will be many who thought that if they would just lose theri life for Christ they would end up in heaven, but again, that's not faith. I could run into a crouded mall full of people with bombs strapped on and blow it up in the name of Christ but this doesnt get me anywhere but dead. It's the same thing, some commy wants me to renounce Christ or he'll blow my head off. My thoughts could be this "If I do this I will be a HERO to the christian faith, everyone will just love me I will finally be somebody". That's not faith. What if you had nothing to lose and your death would make you a hero? Theres no sacrifice in that. Just because someone loses their life doesnt mean anything. whats the motive behind it.

The only thing that keeps God from blowing up this world is the blood of Christ, Gods son. That's it. Nothing more. We can't do anything to help matters. Our life means nothing to God as a sacrifice. His Son is the ONLY thing that pleases him. Our faith is all that's required.

C
crsschk Dec 16, 2007

Well I would first have to say, there are no such things as 'prophets' in the old testament, or gospels since of the word, but there are many teachers and preachers and I would have to say that there are (according to scripture) many of those out there.

Could you clarify that?

This being another gospel is absurd. if it were another gospel I guess you would have to throw out the word of God because if you study it long enough you would have to realize it is the simple truth. God has and does deal differently with people in certain times and time frames, it's not really that big an issue, it's just good scholarship.

Good scholarship brother is to consider everything that the scriptures teach;

[i]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:[/i] 2Ti 3:16

Would challenge you perhaps in a different way. It is very difficult to wrest from our presuppositions whatever they may be. Such is my disdain for what amounts to 'preprogramming' by way of holding to certain constructs as rules of measurement; Predestination. Calvinism. Arminianism. Dispensationalism. Just about anything that has an 'ism' or an 'ian' attached to it. That doesn't mean there isn't anything true of them only that the inference is to either be on the defensive (if it is your 'holding' or 'belief') or on the offensive if you are a detractor. Seems to be standard debating and normative though I might inject more worldly tactics, standards of going about things.

What throws a big wrench in all this is just one word; Consider.

That is the great challenge for all of us.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

A true Berean mindset. If you were take SI collectively you would find great variance and difference of perspective and truly much to consider and reconsider. I could but pray for more ignorance actually on some of these particular 'holdings' that become doctrines in their own right, dogmatic where honesty would require more consideration and quite often a loosening of position.

And perhaps that is one of our great fears; To change our mind is thought to court embarrassment when in reality it is the sweetest most wonderful and liberating things there is. It truly baffles the mind that for all the resources, for all the experience and study of so many of us, the heart searching and scripture searching, the encouragement and attempts towards edifying one another that it is such a rare thing to hear; "I was wrong", "I never considered that before", and the rarest of all; "I changed my mind."

Certainly this a launch off into generalities at your expense perhaps. But brother, I cannot tell you how much all of this has changed and rearranged, challenged me profoundly, all by just considering, especially those things that can be a bit irksome, generally and often more so by their presentation or motivation ... Many things that are true are given in a spirit of vindictiveness, haughtiness, peevish or a prideful manner. Sometimes it is just our own reluctance or aptness to jump to the defense if not to conclusions. One of the great challenging questions is often, "Why am I offended?", "Should I be?", "Need I be?" It is a derivative of the Lords;

Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

For God so loved THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten son. That seems cliche, but it's the simple truth, he don't just love the jews, or the greeks, or the geeks, or the freaks. He loves everyone and everyone is predestined for heaven, but it is our choice to turn from him or except him. Whosoever will may come. His blood has predestined the whole world.

Ahhh, but there is peace, it is the gospel of peace, and for now God is not the judge, he is the prince of peace. It is good news, after all that's what gospel means, good news. This scripture that you quoted was when Israel was about to be judged as a nation. This is the age of GRACE. The church age. A great mystery to the prophets in the old testament. Daniel was not able to understand it.

For now all sin is covered. Jesus paid the debt on the cross. It IS a time of peace and grace no matter what the hell fire and brimstone preachers will tell you.

Not to forget the greater context;

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

More for consideration;

[i][u]Think not[/u] that I am come to send [b]peace[/b] on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.[/i] Mat 10:34-39

(If you do not know by way of experience what all is entailed by way of this 'variance' that the Lord speaks of, it is anything but peaceful brother)

[i]If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? [/i] Luk 14:26-28

[i]Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.[/i] 2Co 2:14-17

Just with these few verses there is a very great implication if we were to think about it. One of the old oft quoted lines recalled from memory goes along this sort of order; "[i]I wish I had never read that.[/i]" Or 'heard' it, 'knew it'. The inference being that one is unable to plead ignorance any longer.

The point is also presented in these verses of very [i]bad news[/i] to those that reject them. Certainly paradox is involved, it is good news indeed, that is the Gospel, but it is not without cost or consideration of what that cost is.

The trouble with dispensationalism is that it can twist things out of proportion.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

[i]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.[/i] Mat 5:17,18

The book of Hebrews is very informative, if one was to attempt to encapsulate it, certainly it is not something of an alteration to the lesser but the greater. No longer is it in ritual and sacrifice, types and shadows but if I may in sheer exposure of the depths and burrows of the heart, [i]in spirit and truth[/i];

[i]But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.[/i] Joh 4:23,24

[i]God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.[/i] Heb 1:1-4

If there is anything of a alteration in 'dispensation' it is that the demands are higher and more penetrating, difficult to put it this way because in effect they have always been in place ...

[i]Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. [u]And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:[/u] Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.[/i] Act 17:29-31

[i]Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture*, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.[/i] 1Pe 2:6-8 (*Isa 8:14)

[i]But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;[/i] 1Co 1:23

[i]And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.[/i] Luk 20:17,18

Just for consideration brother. It is far too simplistic the way you are presenting it, the greatest "hell fire and brimstone" preacher was none other than the Lord Himself;

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

C
crsschk Dec 16, 2007

Well I don't apologize for my stand. "Perfect love casteth out all fear, he that feareth is not made perfect in love".

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

2.\tWe are not to suppose that the love of God casts out every kind of fear from the soul; it only casts out that which has torment.

1.\tA filial fear is consistent with the highest degrees of love; and even necessary to the preservation of that grace. This is properly its guardian; and, without this, love would soon degenerate into listlessness, or presumptive boldness.

2.\tNor does it cast out that fear which is so necessary to the preservation of life; that fear which leads a man to flee from danger lest his life should be destroyed.

3.\tNor does it cast out that fear which may be engendered by sudden alarm. All these are necessary to our well-being. But it destroys,

1.\tThe fear of want;
2.\tThe fear of death; and
3.\tThe fear or terror of judgment. All these fears bring torment, and are inconsistent with this perfect love.

Adam Clarke

~~~~~~~~~~~

We are required to work out our [i]salvation, katergazesthe.[/i] The word signifies [i]working thoroughly[/i] at a thing, and taking [i]true pains.[/i] Observe, We must be diligent in the use of all the means which conduce to our salvation. We must not only work at our salvation, by doing something now and then about it; but we must work out our salvation, by doing all that is to be done, and persevering therein to the end. Salvation is the great thing we should mind, and set our hearts upon; and we cannot attain salvation without the utmost care and diligence. He adds, [i]With fear and trembling[/i], that is, with great care and circumspection: “Trembling for fear lest you miscarry and come short. Be careful to do every thing in religion in the best manner, and fear lest under all your advantages you should so much as [i]seem to come short[/i],” Heb_4:1. Fear is a great guard and preservative from evil.

II. He urges this from the consideration of their readiness always to obey the gospel: [i]“As you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, [/i]Phi_2:12. You have been always willing to comply with every discovery of the will of God; and that in my absence as well as presence. You make it to appear that regard to Christ, and care of your souls, sway more with you than any mode of showing respect whatsoever.” They were not merely awed by the apostle's presence, but did it even [i]much more in his absence[/i]. “And because [i]it is God who worketh in you[/i], do you work out your salvation. Work, for he worketh.” It should encourage us to do our utmost, because our [i]labour shall not be in vain.[/i] God is ready to concur with his grace, and assist our faithful endeavours. Observe, Though we must use our utmost endeavours in working out our salvation, yet still we must go forth, and go on, in a dependence upon the grace of God. His grace works in us in a way suitable to our natures, and in concurrence with our endeavours; and the operations of God's grace in us are so far from excusing, that they are intended to quicken and engage our endeavours. “And work out our salvation with [i]fear and trembling[/i], for [i]he worketh in you.[/i]” All our working depends upon his working in us. “Do not trifle with God by neglects and delays, lest you provoke him to withdraw his help, and all your endeavours prove in vain. Work with [i]fear[/i], for he works of his [i]good pleasure.” - To will and to do[/i]: he gives the whole ability. It is the grace of God which inclines the will to that which is good: and then enables us to perform it, and to act according to our principles. [i]Thou hast wrought all our works in us[/i], Isa_26:12. [i]Of his good pleasure.[/i] As there is no strength in us, so there is no merit in us. As we cannot act without God's grace, so we cannot claim it, nor pretend to deserve it. God's good will to us is the cause of his good work in us; and he is under no engagements to his creatures, but those of his gracious promise.

Matthew Henry


I realize what the early church went through and even in the last century more have been martyred for the name of Christ than in any other time, but this does'nt mean their saved. Im willing to bet that there will be many who thought that if they would just lose theri life for Christ they would end up in heaven, but again, that's not faith.

I could run into a crouded mall full of people with bombs strapped on and blow it up in the name of Christ but this doesnt get me anywhere but dead. It's the same thing, some commy wants me to renounce Christ or he'll blow my head off. My thoughts could be this "If I do this I will be a HERO to the christian faith, everyone will just love me I will finally be somebody". That's not faith. What if you had nothing to lose and your death would make you a hero? Theres no sacrifice in that. Just because someone loses their life doesnt mean anything. whats the motive behind it.

The only thing that keeps God from blowing up this world is the blood of Christ, Gods son. That's it. Nothing more. We can't do anything to help matters. Our life means nothing to God as a sacrifice. His Son is the ONLY thing that pleases him. Our faith is all that's required.

[i]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [/i] Jas 2:14-20

sermonindex Dec 16, 2007


crsschk wrote:
Well I don't apologize for my stand. "Perfect love casteth out all fear, he that feareth is not made perfect in love".

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

2.\tWe are not to suppose that the love of God casts out every kind of fear from the soul; it only casts out that which has torment.

1.\tA filial fear is consistent with the highest degrees of love; and even necessary to the preservation of that grace. This is properly its guardian; and, without this, love would soon degenerate into listlessness, or presumptive boldness.

2.\tNor does it cast out that fear which is so necessary to the preservation of life; that fear which leads a man to flee from danger lest his life should be destroyed.

3.\tNor does it cast out that fear which may be engendered by sudden alarm. All these are necessary to our well-being. But it destroys,

1.\tThe fear of want;
2.\tThe fear of death; and
3.\tThe fear or terror of judgment. All these fears bring torment, and are inconsistent with this perfect love.

Adam Clarke

~~~~~~~~~~~

We are required to work out our [i]salvation, katergazesthe.[/i] The word signifies [i]working thoroughly[/i] at a thing, and taking [i]true pains.[/i] Observe, We must be diligent in the use of all the means which conduce to our salvation. We must not only work at our salvation, by doing something now and then about it; but we must work out our salvation, by doing all that is to be done, and persevering therein to the end. Salvation is the great thing we should mind, and set our hearts upon; and we cannot attain salvation without the utmost care and diligence. He adds, [i]With fear and trembling[/i], that is, with great care and circumspection: “Trembling for fear lest you miscarry and come short. Be careful to do every thing in religion in the best manner, and fear lest under all your advantages you should so much as [i]seem to come short[/i],” Heb_4:1. Fear is a great guard and preservative from evil.

II. He urges this from the consideration of their readiness always to obey the gospel: [i]“As you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, [/i]Phi_2:12. You have been always willing to comply with every discovery of the will of God; and that in my absence as well as presence. You make it to appear that regard to Christ, and care of your souls, sway more with you than any mode of showing respect whatsoever.” They were not merely awed by the apostle's presence, but did it even [i]much more in his absence[/i]. “And because [i]it is God who worketh in you[/i], do you work out your salvation. Work, for he worketh.” It should encourage us to do our utmost, because our [i]labour shall not be in vain.[/i] God is ready to concur with his grace, and assist our faithful endeavours. Observe, Though we must use our utmost endeavours in working out our salvation, yet still we must go forth, and go on, in a dependence upon the grace of God. His grace works in us in a way suitable to our natures, and in concurrence with our endeavours; and the operations of God's grace in us are so far from excusing, that they are intended to quicken and engage our endeavours. “And work out our salvation with [i]fear and trembling[/i], for [i]he worketh in you.[/i]” All our working depends upon his working in us. “Do not trifle with God by neglects and delays, lest you provoke him to withdraw his help, and all your endeavours prove in vain. Work with [i]fear[/i], for he works of his [i]good pleasure.” - To will and to do[/i]: he gives the whole ability. It is the grace of God which inclines the will to that which is good: and then enables us to perform it, and to act according to our principles. [i]Thou hast wrought all our works in us[/i], Isa_26:12. [i]Of his good pleasure.[/i] As there is no strength in us, so there is no merit in us. As we cannot act without God's grace, so we cannot claim it, nor pretend to deserve it. God's good will to us is the cause of his good work in us; and he is under no engagements to his creatures, but those of his gracious promise.

Matthew Henry


I realize what the early church went through and even in the last century more have been martyred for the name of Christ than in any other time, but this does'nt mean their saved. Im willing to bet that there will be many who thought that if they would just lose theri life for Christ they would end up in heaven, but again, that's not faith.

I could run into a crouded mall full of people with bombs strapped on and blow it up in the name of Christ but this doesnt get me anywhere but dead. It's the same thing, some commy wants me to renounce Christ or he'll blow my head off. My thoughts could be this "If I do this I will be a HERO to the christian faith, everyone will just love me I will finally be somebody". That's not faith. What if you had nothing to lose and your death would make you a hero? Theres no sacrifice in that. Just because someone loses their life doesnt mean anything. whats the motive behind it.

The only thing that keeps God from blowing up this world is the blood of Christ, Gods son. That's it. Nothing more. We can't do anything to help matters. Our life means nothing to God as a sacrifice. His Son is the ONLY thing that pleases him. Our faith is all that's required.

[i]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [/i] Jas 2:14-20

I've argued my point so many times that now it really seems pointless. It's not gonna change your view or edify you, and more than likely it will cause division and discourse between myself and many others here. So instead of trying to win an unwinable arguement i will just say this. No matter what you or I or anyone else believes there is an element of truth in all doctrines, and philopsophys, even worldy philosophys such as Darwinism. That tells me something. That God has his hand in everything, and everything was created for him, and his glory ,and he will get glory out of everything, no matter if it is godless, and cursed, or pure, and holy.

For our salvation it's all or nothing. It's either all Christ or nothing. We could sit and argue about scriptures and I could tell you why it was written and specifically who it was written to and you could say that it was written for all christians and then i could argue my point and then you argue your point but that will not get us anywhere, what's the point. i've wrestled over these issues until I have peace about what I believe. I truly believe God has wrought those things that I believe in my heart as you could probably say for yourself. So why argue? Lets talk about things we can all agree on. probably everyone here that posts on a regular basis is a real christian. i don't doubt that. some of us have swallowed poisonous doctrines that have hurt us, but I believe it's Gods way of teaching us in many cases. Sometimes it's just our own stubborn will and pride that causes us to make mistakes. I don't want others to make the same mistakes I did because I know the grief and hell it caused me, but I have to realize in most cases theres nothing I can do. God has to teach them. It's like watching a helpless child be carried off by a wolf. You want to help so badly but he's too fast and there are probably many more waiting just beyond the tree line.

So instead of argueing with you brother I will just say "Thank you very much for the response I appreciate the concern."

C
c52 Dec 17, 2007

The only thing that keeps God from blowing up this world is the blood...our life means nothing to God as a sacrifice...

I beg to differ: He is long-suffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence.
I beg to differ: I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice...

Isn't His Word wonderful? I'm sure glad that some of the opinions I see written on the web-site are just that, opinions, and not His truth---otherwise, I'd be doomed.

sermonindex Dec 17, 2007


c52 wrote:
The only thing that keeps God from blowing up this world is the blood...our life means nothing to God as a sacrifice...

I beg to differ: He is long-suffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence.
I beg to differ: I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice...

Isn't His Word wonderful? I'm sure glad that some of the opinions I see written on the web-site are just that, opinions, and not His truth---otherwise, I'd be doomed.

Are you trying to pick a fight? :-x well it's not gonna work 8-)

sermonindex Dec 17, 2007

I could run into a crouded mall full of people with bombs strapped on and blow it up in the name of Christ but this doesnt get me anywhere but dead.

Is this what you think a martyr is?

Please look in your storng's, it means WITNESS.

Who said anything about running into a mall and killing in teh name of Jesus?

WOW! Hold on here a minute.

Paul clearly tells us:

Romans 8:35-37
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.


So, you think you were saved to just sit around in all your glory while others witnessing for the Gospel **are being killed***, and you are just going to walk away thinking you are not called to suffer for the sake of the Gospel as well?:

JAson, I believe you have been deceived **AGAIN**with false doctrine!!!

Paul said too in Romans...Those who suffer with Him will **Reign with Him**..Those who suffer with Him, will be **Glorified together with Him**.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did


sermonindex Dec 17, 2007

"Peace, peace when there is no peace"...if a pastor was always preaching "FLUFF" and sometimes preaching convicting sermons would you call that a false prophet??
First of all, are all preachers Prophets? Are not prophets who prophesy?

sermonindex Dec 17, 2007


First of all, are all preachers Prophets? Are not prophets who prophesy?


Not all who claim to be prophets have the testimony of Jesus Christ, which is "Christ In You", the Hope of Glory.

Many today have made a farce out of prophecy and prophesying about having new and different ideas not in scripture.

But here is what the Bible says about NT Prophecy and those who Prophesy.

Are you testifying about the very life of Christ in you...? Even if you don't open your mouth, the Holy Spirit within you conforming you to the Image of Jesus Christ is quite evident.

Here's what Paul tells us. Is this YOUR doing or God's? For me, I have no control over it.

2 Corinthians 4:10-12

10Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

11For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

12So then death worketh in us, but life in you.


Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who is making war with who?

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

sermonindex Dec 17, 2007


Katy-did wrote:
I could run into a crouded mall full of people with bombs strapped on and blow it up in the name of Christ but this doesnt get me anywhere but dead.

Is this what you think a martyr is?

Please look in your storng's, it means WITNESS.

Who said anything about running into a mall and killing in teh name of Jesus?

WOW! Hold on here a minute.

Paul clearly tells us:

Romans 8:35-37
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.


So, you think you were saved to just sit around in all your glory while others witnessing for the Gospel **are being killed***, and you are just going to walk away thinking you are not called to suffer for the sake of the Gospel as well?:

JAson, I believe you have been deceived **AGAIN**with false doctrine!!!

Paul said too in Romans...Those who suffer with Him will **Reign with Him**..Those who suffer with Him, will be **Glorified together with Him**.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did


Actually, there are many that do this very same thing that call themselves martyrs. I think that many people that lose their life, whether walking into a crouded mall, or refusing to renounce Christ, think this is a sure way to enter heaven, when in fact it's not. It's just another form of works, does'nt get ya nowhere. Sorry. :-(

Let me turn that question around on you. So tell me Katy-did, how have you suffered for Jesus? Will it be enough? If we have to suffer, well, I sure hope you have suffered enough, because if you havent than your just a hypocrite.

sermonindex Dec 17, 2007

Actually, there are many that do this very same thing that call themselves martyrs. I think that many people that lose their life, whether walking into a crowded mall, or refusing to renounce Christ, think this is a sure way to enter heaven, when in fact it's not. It's just another form of works, does'nt get ya nowhere. Sorry

Oh Dear!!!

Well, like I said, it's something you have no control over.

Works are when you decide to run ahead and do something for the Glory of God, only to find out it's for your own glory....yep...that is false.

However, those who belong to the Lord have no Idea how the Lord plans to pour them out a drink offering day after day, as they die to self.

Jason, babies know their sins are forgiven...YEA!!! but we go on from there...young men have overcome the evil one...and that takes a mighty skillful handling of the sword. Have you ever met a swordsman that didn't have to work at it, and get cut here and there along the way?

Are you and over comer who never went into combat???

Oh I see, one of those who was given a desk job because he had connections?:-? Not in God's army!!!

Possibly a 4f maybe????? :-P Not in God's Army....He's actually looking for as many 4f ranks as He can.....that's where His Glory shines the most!


All righty then!!!:-(

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

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