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The infernal dungeon of hell -bunyan

sermonindex Dec 17, 2007


[b]The infernal dungeon of hell[/b]

(John Bunyan)

"Depart from Me, you who are cursed—into the
eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!"
Matthew 25:41

Those in the infernal dungeon of hell, will undergo
a variety of torments. Those who are most afflicted
upon earth, have seldom any more than one malady
at a time. But should they have the plague, the gout,
the stone, and fever all at one time—how miserable
would they think themselves! Yet all that is but like
the biting of a flea—compared to those intolerable,
pungent pains which those in hell endure! There they
have all the loathed variety of hell to grapple with—
the unquenchable fire to burn them;
a lake of burning brimstone ever choking them;
eternal chains to bind them;
utter darkness to affright them, and
a worm of conscience which gnaws upon them
eternally. Any one of these is worse to bear, than
all the torments which mankind ever felt on earth.

But the torments in hell are also universal, afflicting
each part of the body and soul—which renders what
they suffer, most insufferable. In those illnesses which
men are seized with on earth, though some parts are
afflicted, other parts are free. But in hell, each member
of the soul and body is continually tormented. The eye
is tormented with the sight of the devils, who appear in
all the horrid and black shapes which sin can give them!
The ear is tormented with the loud yellings and continual
outcries of the damned. The nostrils are smothered with
sulphurous flames; the tongue is covered with burning
blisters; and the whole body is rolled in flames of liquid
fire! The imagination is tormented with the thoughts of
what a heaven has been lost; the memory is tormented
with reflecting on those opportunities they had of being
saved. The mind is tormented with considering how vainly
precious time has been wasted. The understanding is
tormented with the thoughts of of present pains, and
future sorrows—which are to last for ever! The conscience
is tormented with a continual gnawing worm.

Another thing which makes the misery of hell so dreadful,
is the extremity of the torments. The fire which burns is
so violent that all the water in the sea can never quench it!
The pains suffered are so extreme, that it is impossible
they should be known by any, but those who feel them.

Another part of hell's misery is the ceaselessness of the
torments. As various, as universal, and as extremely violent
as they are—they are continual, also. Nor have they the least
rest from them. If there were any relaxation—it might be
some allay. But what makes this condition so deplorable—
is that there is no easing of the torments! "They will go
away into eternal punishment!" Matthew 25:46

The company they have there, is another element of
their misery. Tormenting devils and tormented souls are
all the company. Dreadful shrieks and howlings, under
the fierceness of pain, and fearful blasphemies, is all
the conversation.

The place in which they suffer is another thing which
increases the sufferings. Hell is the epitome of all misery—
a prison,
a dungeon,
a bottomless pit,
a lake of fire and brimstone,
a furnace of fire which burns to eternity,
the blackness of darkness forever!

The cruelty of our tormentors is another thing which
adds to the torments. The tormentors are devils, in
whom there is no pity. Being tormented themselves,
they take pleasure in tormenting others.

But that which makes these sufferings most grievous—
is that they shall always be so—these most intolerable
sufferings shall last to all eternity. 'Depart from Me, you
who are cursed, into the eternal fire!" will perpetually
sound in the ears of the damned! The miserable
situation they are in, shall be forever!

sermonindex Dec 17, 2007


Greg,

i find this description and the traditional Christian views on hell to be unacceptable.

why??

because an all knowing God of love would not create people with the foreknowledge that they will choose to spend eternity in such conditions.

because the devil, in some sense, wins if you accept hell as the eternal home of the damned.


so what is an alternative that fits with the notion of a Loving God?? and the scriptures?

what i believe will happen on judgement day is that time, in some sense, will be unzipped, if you will. there most definately will be wailing and gnashing of teeth and such when the devil is revealed to be a lie (the father of lies is a lie.) and the even bigger lie, that unrepentant sinners will live eternally in hell, is revealed.

what i believe will happen is that all those condemned to hell will simply vanish from the realm of time. it will be as if everything before the judgement is but a dream and it will be as if the devil and unrepentant sinners never really existed in the first place.

in this sense the punishment of unrepentant sinners will be truly eternal. their lives and the suffering they caused will be extracted from the universe and their eternal damnation will commence. they will never have existed, but will also have had the free will to have chosen God, and God will not be a creator of hell (which is what i cannot abide.) a loving, omnipotent God does not create salient creatures for eternal existence in hell. nor does he create a fallen angel or devil to rule over this hell, as this is contradictory to Love.

human beings don't need outside spiritual forces to cause us to sin. we do evil by our own choice, with only ourselves to blame.

bub

R
ravenmolehil Dec 17, 2007

Bub, I noticed 'I believe' to be the emphasized quite a bit, do you have scripture to validate these points or is this your private interpretation of the matter? Not trying to be harsh, just curious.

I
InTheLight Dec 17, 2007

I'm curious, from which of Bunyan's works is this clip taken from?

In Christ,

Ron

sermonindex Dec 17, 2007

ravenmolehil,

yes, this is a personal interpretation and there are passages in the Bible that could be used to contradict it.

it depends upon how you read and consider the Bible. my point of view is that the Bible conveys the truth of Christ, as it was intended to do. but that much of the circumstances, reasoning and many stories in the bible were written in languages no longer spoken, born from cultures that no longer exist, and were passed down through so many generations and previous interpretations that we have great difficulty in discerning their meaning, out of context, as they are.

when something in the Bible contradicts the truth that God is Love, I am suspicious of it. the idea of eternal hell as punishment for disobedient creatures that were made by an all-knowing God of Love strikes me as a fallacy because God can't and doesn't make mistakes.

(After God made Lucifer, can you picture Him saying to himself, "i've got to practice more and be more diligent, so i don't screw up like this again." ???)

i value scriptures highly because they present part of the Truth about God. the creation presents more about the Truth of God. and our senses of truth, justice and love also present more about God because they are rooted in our own creation.

Auchwitz was hell.

bub

R
ravenmolehil Dec 18, 2007

Bub, I respectfully disagree on many of your points but,
I pray this post drives us to search the scriptures deeper to find whether these thing are so...

R
ravenmolehil Dec 18, 2007

A very sobering message..bump


sermonindex wrote:
[b]The infernal dungeon of hell[/b]
(John Bunyan)
"Depart from Me, you who are cursed—into the
eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!"
Matthew 25:41

Those in the infernal dungeon of hell, will undergo
a variety of torments. Those who are most afflicted
upon earth, have seldom any more than one malady
at a time. But should they have the plague, the gout,
the stone, and fever all at one time—how miserable
would they think themselves! Yet all that is but like
the biting of a flea—compared to those intolerable,
pungent pains which those in hell endure! There they
have all the loathed variety of hell to grapple with—
the unquenchable fire to burn them;
a lake of burning brimstone ever choking them;
eternal chains to bind them;
utter darkness to affright them, and
a worm of conscience which gnaws upon them
eternally. Any one of these is worse to bear, than
all the torments which mankind ever felt on earth.

But the torments in hell are also universal, afflicting
each part of the body and soul—which renders what
they suffer, most insufferable. In those illnesses which
men are seized with on earth, though some parts are
afflicted, other parts are free. But in hell, each member
of the soul and body is continually tormented. The eye
is tormented with the sight of the devils, who appear in
all the horrid and black shapes which sin can give them!
The ear is tormented with the loud yellings and continual
outcries of the damned. The nostrils are smothered with
sulphurous flames; the tongue is covered with burning
blisters; and the whole body is rolled in flames of liquid
fire! The imagination is tormented with the thoughts of
what a heaven has been lost; the memory is tormented
with reflecting on those opportunities they had of being
saved. The mind is tormented with considering how vainly
precious time has been wasted. The understanding is
tormented with the thoughts of of present pains, and
future sorrows—which are to last for ever! The conscience
is tormented with a continual gnawing worm.

Another thing which makes the misery of hell so dreadful,
is the extremity of the torments. The fire which burns is
so violent that all the water in the sea can never quench it!
The pains suffered are so extreme, that it is impossible
they should be known by any, but those who feel them.

Another part of hell's misery is the ceaselessness of the
torments. As various, as universal, and as extremely violent
as they are—they are continual, also. Nor have they the least
rest from them. If there were any relaxation—it might be
some allay. But what makes this condition so deplorable—
is that there is no easing of the torments! "They will go
away into eternal punishment!" Matthew 25:46

The company they have there, is another element of
their misery. Tormenting devils and tormented souls are
all the company. Dreadful shrieks and howlings, under
the fierceness of pain, and fearful blasphemies, is all
the conversation.

The place in which they suffer is another thing which
increases the sufferings. Hell is the epitome of all misery—
a prison,
a dungeon,
a bottomless pit,
a lake of fire and brimstone,
a furnace of fire which burns to eternity,
the blackness of darkness forever!

The cruelty of our tormentors is another thing which
adds to the torments. The tormentors are devils, in
whom there is no pity. Being tormented themselves,
they take pleasure in tormenting others.

But that which makes these sufferings most grievous—
is that they shall always be so—these most intolerable
sufferings shall last to all eternity. 'Depart from Me, you
who are cursed, into the eternal fire!" will perpetually
sound in the ears of the damned! The miserable
situation they are in, shall be forever!

sermonindex Dec 18, 2007


bubbaguy:

Greg,
i find this description and the traditional Christian views on hell to be unacceptable. why?? because an all knowing God of love would not create people with the foreknowledge that they will choose to spend eternity in such conditions.

By this statement alone you have just created a God in your own image. A false God, A false Christ. Sadly, many believe this as well.

sermonindex Dec 18, 2007

Brother Julian,

first, my statement doesn't reflect on Christ, but rather on the God of Love. my point is that what the traditional Christian church espouses about eternal hell doesn't fit with the idea of a God of Love.

this is not to create any image of God, but rather I am trying to understand how eternal hell fits within the idea of a God of Love.

my conclusion is that it doesn't fit, except symbolically. hell is a metaphor for what it is like to be estranged from God, with only your human ego to guide you. the devil is a metaphor for the greed, lust, hatred, pride, etc. that we entertain and substantiate when we reject or act in opposition to the will of God.

bub

L
LoveHim Dec 18, 2007

first, my statement doesn't reflect on Christ, but rather on the God of Love. my point is that what the traditional Christian church espouses about eternal hell doesn't fit with the idea of a God of Love.
dear bub,

i'm not here to debate you on this topic or anything, but it seems like you are emphasizing love to the detrement of other attributes.

this is not to create any image of God, but rather I am trying to understand how eternal hell fits within the idea of a God of Love.
but what about a God of Truth, a Jealous God, a Holy God?
my conclusion is that it doesn't fit, except symbolically. hell is a metaphor for what it is like to be estranged from God, with only your human ego to guide you. the devil is a metaphor for the greed, lust, hatred, pride, etc. that we entertain and substantiate when we reject or act in opposition to the will of God.
can you please clarify this? do you believe in a literal satan? it would help me to understand what you are trying to say.

thanks a lot bub, have a good day.

phil

sermonindex Dec 18, 2007

my conclusion is that it doesn't fit, except symbolically. hell is a metaphor for what it is like to be estranged from God, with only your human ego to guide you. the devil is a metaphor for the greed, lust, hatred, pride, etc. that we entertain and substantiate when we reject or act in opposition to the will of God.

Please don't use the bible anymore to espouse your ideas of goodwill to all men. Become a buddist and leave the bible alone. You have no grounding with ANYTHING Christian. Please sir read the early church fathers.. ANY history of the church for the last 2000 years.. its very foreign to everything you are saying.

I believe more damage is done to the work of Christ with people that use the scriptures for their own end.

sermonindex Dec 18, 2007

phil, it depends. from a temporal point of view, satan exists as the personification of that which opposes God. even this is an abstraction, like the square root of negative one.

from the point of view of eternity, however, the devil does not exist because he has been defeated and destroyed. he has no subjects to reign over and torture throughout eternity, because time itself has concluded.

this is what most Christians ignore: God exists outside of the realm of time. God created time and God will take it away. from this perspective, eternity is a meaningless term.

i think we choose to be with God or not, but if not, you wont exist outside of time. it is as if you never existed at all. those condemned to hell live a temporal existence that has a conclusion when judgement comes. after that, they don't exist at all.

but this is my own interpretation, because i cannot comprehend God creating people knowing they will spend eternity in hell with the devil. it doesn't fit with the concept of love.

bub


(Ron, stop groaning. ;-)

L
LoveHim Dec 18, 2007

from the point of view of eternity, however, the devil does not exist because he has been defeated and destroyed. he has no subjects to reign over and torture throughout eternity, because time itself has concluded.

this is what most Christians ignore: God exists outside of the realm of time. God created time and God will take it away. from this perspective, eternity is a meaningless term.

but what about heaven? why is heaven literally for eternity while hell is not? in matthew 25 (parable of the sheep and goats), heaven and hell are both described as eternally. i am curious as to why do you make one literally and the other not??
but this is my own interpretation, because i cannot comprehend God creating people knowing they will spend eternity in hell with the devil. it doesn't fit with the concept of love.
could you please show from scripture why you believe this?? is it just because you can't wrap your mind around a loving God and an eternal hell??

thanks for the response.

phil

sermonindex Dec 19, 2007

here's a couple of quote on the subject that i identify with. bub


"An idea, which has terrified millions, claims that some of us will go to a place called Hell, where we will suffer eternal torture. This does not scare me because, when I try to imagine a Mind behind this universe, I cannot conceive that Mind, usually called "God," as totally mad. I mean, guys, compare that "God" with the worst monsters you can think of - Adolph Hitler, Joe Stalin, that sort of guy. None of them ever inflicted more than finite pain on their victims. Even de Sade, in his sado-masochistic fantasy novels, never devised an unlimited torture. The idea that the Mind of Creation wants to torture some of its critters for endless infinities of infinities seems too absurd to take seriously. Such a deranged Mind could not create a mud hut, much less the exquisitely mathematical universe around us.
Robert Anton Wilson

And yet this same Deity says to me, "resist not evil; pray for those that despitefully use you; love your enemies, but I will eternally damn mine." It seems to me that even gods should practice what they preach.
Robert Ingersoll

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