BlazedbyGod
Dec 17, 2007
Who was the man that John Calvin killed for not agreeing with him and why? Thanks for any information or links posted-
Who was the man that John Calvin killed for not agreeing with him and why? Thanks for any information or links posted-
Michael Servetus is who you're talking about I think.
Here's one discussion on it:[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18334&forum=36]Calvin and Servetus
This is what I found and had heard previously:
[i]The most lasting controversy of Calvin's life involves his role in the execution of Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, and theologian.
Servetus first published his views in 1531 to a wide yet unreceptive audience. He denounced the Trinity, one of the cardinal doctrines that Catholics and Protestants agreed upon.[1] Calvin knew of these views in 1534, when he accepted Servetus' invitation to a small gathering in Paris to discuss their differences in person. For unknown reasons Servetus failed to appear.[19]
Around 1546, Servetus initiated a correspondence with Calvin that lasted until 1548, when the exchange grew so rancorous that Calvin ended it. Each man wrote under a pen name and each tried to win the other to his own theology. Servetus even offered to come to Geneva if invited and given a guarantee of safe passage. Calvin declined to offer either. In 1546 Calvin told Farel, "[Servetus] takes it upon him to come hither, if it be agreeable to me. But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety, for if he shall come, I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail."[1]
Calvin's zeal was very much the rule among civil and church authorities in 16th century Europe, above all toward Servetus' effort to spread what they deemed heresy. As early as 1533 the Spanish Inquisition had sentenced Servetus to death in absentia.[20] Years later, in 1553, he was charged with heresy while living under an assumed name in Vienne, France. After Servetus escaped from the French prison in April 1553, the authorities there convicted and burned him in effigy.[21]
Servetus came to Geneva in August 1553 and attended a Sunday church service with Calvin in the pulpit. He was recognized and arrested on Calvin's initiative.[citation needed] And, while Calvin also wrote the heresy charges, Geneva's city council did far more to steer Servetus' trial, sentence, and burning at the stake.[22][19] Calvin asked the council for a more humane execution – beheading instead of the stake – but his appeal was denied. The sentence was carried out on 27 October 1553. Servetus was burned along with every available copy of his final work, Christianismi Restitutio, only three known copies of which survived – two in Calvin's own possession.
Servetus was the only person "put to death for his religious opinions in Geneva during Calvin's lifetime, at a time when executions of this nature were a commonplace elsewhere," but an angry debate over this incident has continued to the present day.[22] History has certainly judged Calvin to be in the wrong on this issue, and modern Calvinists do not defend his actions against Servetus.[23][24] Although many of Calvin's detractors portray him as a man who craved power, could not abide any dissent, and is unworthy of the respect that is commonly given to him,[25][26] his admirers see him as a man who sinned and failed to transcend the ethics of his time, but who is still deserving of honor because of his contributions elsewhere.[8][24]
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Personally I'm not a fan of Calvin the man, and consider myself "middle of the road" when it comes to Calvinism. I think, as with anything else, there are extremes on both sides. There have even been Calvinists on this forum who have declared those who disagreed to be not "truly saved". This is a firghtening mirror of what Calvin apparently did to Michael Servetus.
Obviously Michael Servetus was a heretic, but if Calvin had him executed for it, I dont believe that was scriptural at all.
[i]Each man wrote under a pen name and each tried to win the other to his own theology.
...hmmm, sound familiar to anyone?
Krispy
Krispy-just a curious question:
Why do you suggest that: " ..obviously Servetus was a heretic"-are you saying that because he denounced the trinity, or because you know a little bit more about this man and other of his doctrine?
To one extent, I know Servetus did NOT believe that Jesus was the "Eternal Son of God"-but he rather believed " Jesus was the Son of the Eternal God"-thus, I guess not believing that Jesus himself was Eternal-it would seen he believed in the trinity in which he denounced.
Thanks for your reply though :-)
Why do you suggest that: " ..obviously Servetus was a heretic"-are you saying that because he denounced the trinity
Denying the trinity = heresy.
To one extent, I know Servetus did NOT believe that Jesus was the "Eternal Son of God"-but he rather believed " Jesus was the Son of the Eternal God"-thus, I guess not believing that Jesus himself was Eternal-it would seen he believed in the trinity in which he denounced.
However you slice it, he didnt believe that Jesus was God. If he didnt believe the Trinity but did believe in Jesus' diety, then he would be a polytheist, believing in multiple gods. But the Bible is very clear... there is only ONE God. And Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. John 1:1 is probably the second most powerful verse in the Bible, right behind John 3:16.
Aside from all the other looney-toons theology of Mormonism and JW's, the Trinity is the crux of where those two cults get it wrong, and what makes them heretics right out of the gate... and then it goes downhill from there.
Krispy
Denying the trinity = heresy.
Krispy
Let me ask this, what if one does not believe in the trinity, but rather the Godhead-does that constitute heresy?
What if one denies the trinity but believes that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God?
I am just asking because I am curious in yours, or anyone else who would like to respond to those questions.
I, myself, believe totally wholeheartedly in the Eternal Godhead, however I do not accept, or believe in what is commonly referred to as the "trinity"
What should worrie the ones who dont belive Jesus was God in the flesh, is how could anyone else then God himself pay the price for sin?
If Jesus was not God manifested in flesh, we are all in trouble.....
I, myself, believe totally wholeheartedly in the Eternal Godhead, however I do not accept, or believe in what is commonly referred to as the "trinity"
So then you believe Jesus is a God? In other words there are more than one God?
I am not the best person to explain the Trinity to you. I have a grasp of it all in my own heart and mind, but to put it into words is not my area of expertise. I think others might be better able to explain it.
What about John 1:1? [i]"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word [b]was
Clearly in the 1st chapter of John it goes on in context to show that the "Word" is none other than Jesus Christ. Chapter 1 verse 1 declares clearly that Jesus [b]was
In Matthew 1:23 it says: [i]"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name [b]Emmanuel[b]God with us
And later on Jesus called himself by the name that the Jews understood from the time of Moses to be the name of God...
John 8:58 [i]"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, [b]I am."
It was enough for them to charge Him with blasphemey... NOT because He claimed to be the Messiah... but because He claimed to [b]BE GOD
The religious rulers understood exactly what He was saying, and thats what riled them up so bad. If they merely understood Him to be claiming to be the Messiah, they would not have had Him killed. They would have dismissed Him as crazy. But while claiming to be the Messiah He claimed clearly to [b]be God
Therefore, we have no other choice but to believe in the Trinity. Just because our feeble minds can not possibly comprehend all that that entails doesnt mean it isnt true. There are some things we wont ever be able to understand.
And yes, I do believe that you may be in dangerous territory. I dont say that in a judgemental way at all... I say that out of concern. In order to be truly saved it is important that we have a clear understanding of who Christ is. We must put our faith in the Christ of the Bible, and no other Christ.
Krispy
KrispyKrittr wrote:I, myself, believe totally wholeheartedly in the Eternal Godhead, however I do not accept, or believe in what is commonly referred to as the "trinity"
So then you believe Jesus is a God? In other words there are more than one God?
I am not the best person to explain the Trinity to you. I have a grasp of it all in my own heart and mind, but to put it into words is not my area of expertise. I think others might be better able to explain it.
What about John 1:1? [i]"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word [b]was
Clearly in the 1st chapter of John it goes on in context to show that the "Word" is none other than Jesus Christ. Chapter 1 verse 1 declares clearly that Jesus [b]was
In Matthew 1:23 it says: [i]"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name [b]Emmanuel[b]God with us
And later on Jesus called himself by the name that the Jews understood from the time of Moses to be the name of God...
John 8:58 [i]"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, [b]I am."
It was enough for them to charge Him with blasphemey... NOT because He claimed to be the Messiah... but because He claimed to [b]BE GOD
The religious rulers understood exactly what He was saying, and thats what riled them up so bad. If they merely understood Him to be claiming to be the Messiah, they would not have had Him killed. They would have dismissed Him as crazy. But while claiming to be the Messiah He claimed clearly to [b]be God
Therefore, we have no other choice but to believe in the Trinity. Just because our feeble minds can not possibly comprehend all that that entails doesnt mean it isnt true. There are some things we wont ever be able to understand.
And yes, I do believe that you may be in dangerous territory. I dont say that in a judgemental way at all... I say that out of concern. In order to be truly saved it is important that we have a clear understanding of who Christ is. We must put our faith in the Christ of the Bible, and no other Christ.
Krispy
I do not believe that Jesus Christ is " A" God- I believe Jesus Christ is GOD-even as you quoted, and even as John 1:1 says.
I was never saying I didn't believe Jesus to be God-I was saying the Holy Word of Scripture never refers to the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost as a trinity-but rather the Godhead.
What I would like to say, even in reference to Matt 28:19-if Jesus is God (which he emphatically is), and the Father is God-therefore in Matt 28:19 The "NAME of the Father"-would be JESUS, even as the "NAME of the Son" and the "NAME of the Holy Ghost is JESUS-for there is only ONE GOD.
I meet people who verbally proclaim (and this is not directed to you personally, I am just making a general statement) that they believe Jesus is God, but then when it comes to Matt 28:19 and what is the "NAME of the Father"-they will say every name but Jesus. But if Jesus is the Father, then the Father's name is Jesus-and even these are the words of Christ in his prayer-John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
The name that Jesus, our Lord manifested unto them was in fact JESUS
The Holy Word itself defines the Blessed Union as the "Godhead"-not the trinity
Thus, I am simply saying the Eternal Godhead and the trinity are not one and the same teaching. doctrine
As I believe and understand, the term Trinity didn't come along until the time of the Catholic Church-in which to them Jesus was the second in the trinity-and even Mary who was not a part of that trinity held a position higher than Jesus-which is totally unscriptual in any and every degree.
It is Christ in whom we believe, it is Christ's name in whom we must be baptized-both water and Spirit.
Blazed, we have been through this I don't know haw many times...and you are not going to get us to "convert" to your Oneness theology this time either. You are plainly wrong and have been shown verse after verse by many brethren to prove that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate, distinct, coexistant, yet one God. They do not morph from one into another depending on how they reveal themselves.
I have never seen anyone interpret Matt. 28:19 the way you do. The Greek construction, which you have right but come up with an absurd interpretation, shows that the three are one. But they are NOT the same. The Father is NEVER referred to as Jesus, and neither is the Holy Ghost. Jesus did not talk to himself in prayer. Jesus did not shout down from heaven at his own baptism while also taking on the form of a dove and descend upon himself. You are turning Jesus into a comic strip superhero with out of body experiences. Your theology denies the incarnation because a man cannot do what you claim Jesus did.
One more thing, how can Jesus be the Father of Himself?
I do not wish to have any more discussion past this, unless you are honestly inquiring.
If I sound harsh, it is because I want you to realize that you are in deep with this theology of yours. You must understand the gravity here.
I love you, brother.
Blazed... I didnt realize that there is a history behind your inquirey of me. As I said previously, I am not the best person when it comes to explaining the Trinity. As stated, I understand what I believe, but just not able to discuss it as eloquently as I would like.
Since there has obviously been discussion about this in past, and it obviously was with people more capable than I, I agree with BeYeDoers... another discussion of this would not be fruitful. I would recommend you reflect back on the previous discussions you have had.
I am not questioning your motives for bringing it up... just have other things I would rather discuss at this time.
Krispy
Someone please tell me, what is the name of the Father?
Just a simple answer to the direct question will suffice
I AM.
And that ends this discussion.
Krispy
Hi BlazedbyGod...
I'm not sure that a "simple answer" would actually suffice for such a question. Why? Because God has MANY NAMES. We could go from the divine name "YHWH" (and how it morphed with vowels into YeHoWaH --> Jehovah), to descriptive names ("El Shaddai, etc...), and then to the names that are more "titles" (King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Prince of Peace, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, etc...).Someone please tell me, what is the name of the Father?Just a simple answer to the direct question will suffice
The name "Jesus" was simply a name chosen on Earth. By whom? Mary and Joseph. The name "Jesus" (well, actually, "Yeshu" or "Yeshua") was a rather common name at the time. This is somewhat in keeping to the prophecy about the coming of our Lord in Isaiah (...about Him having nothing that would attract us to Him). Jesus was literally the "only begotten son" of the Father. How long was Jesus around and a seperate entity from the Father? At least since Creation. Jesus was actively involved in the Creation of this world (John 1:1-5; Colossians 1:16; Genesis 1:26).
So to approach this question in a simple, "matter of fact" manner is somewhat misleading. We know that Jesus is God. But is Jesus the Father? There is a clear distinction the book of John (chapters 15, 16 and 17) that He was not. We also realize this seperation in the Old Testament (such as found in Isaiah chapter 6).
:-)
KrispyKrittr wrote:
I AM.And that ends this discussion.
Krispy
And is not Jesus Christ this Great " I AM"-yes or No?
I'm not sure that a "simple answer" would actually suffice for such a question. Why? Because God has MANY NAMES. We could go from the divine name "YHWH" (and how it morphed with vowels into YeHoWaH --> Jehovah), to descriptive names ("El Shaddai, etc...), and then to the names that are more "titles" (King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Prince of Peace, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, etc...).
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi BlazedbyGod...Someone please tell me, what is the name of the Father?Just a simple answer to the direct question will suffice
The name "Jesus" was simply a name chosen on Earth. By whom? Mary and Joseph. The name "Jesus" (well, actually, "Yeshu" or "Yeshua") was a rather common name at the time. This is somewhat in keeping to the prophecy about the coming of our Lord in Isaiah (...about Him having nothing that would attract us to Him). Jesus was literally the "only begotten son" of the Father. How long was Jesus around and a seperate entity from the Father? At least since Creation. Jesus was actively involved in the Creation of this world (John 1:1-5; Colossians 1:16; Genesis 1:26).
So to approach this question in a simple, "matter of fact" manner is somewhat misleading. We know that Jesus is God. But is Jesus the Father? There is a clear distinction the book of John (chapters 15, 16 and 17) that He was not. We also realize this seperation in the Old Testament (such as found in Isaiah chapter 6).
:-)
ccchhhrrriiisss, what I meant by simple, was just that I wanted a direct answer-referring to a specific name or lists of names or titles. That is all I meant
No, this is what I refer to as baiting. I wont be baited into this discussion. It's becoming more and more clear that your intention is not to inquire out of honesty, but to get us all involved into a debate about this doctrine because you wish to convince us that you're right.
Personally I respond better to people just declaring their intentions rather than baiting.
Krispy
I asked a simple question, even as I did before:
I asked " is not Jesus Christ this Great " I AM"?
That is not "baiting"-that is a question-are you the judge of my intent through reading on the internet? You have judged me in saying " that IS MY MOTIVE (intent).
I asked a humble question, and it appears to me, the question I asked doesn't want to be answered because the answer is obvious.
If you werent baiting and trying to swerve this thread away from the original question then you wouldnt have demanded five times that we answer you.
Thats what I am basing my perception of your motives on.
Someone else can pick up the bataan if they wish. I have nothing more to offer.
Krispy
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The [b]everlasting FATHER
This discussion is locked.