question about ezekiel 14, Going to prophets

P

poet Dec 22, 2007

Below is Ezekiel 14:1-11
I am trying to find out about this... I have friends and I included have gone to prophets to get words about our lives or possible ministry.
I know people who I will call word addicts.
I would go to certain services where you could always get prayed for and get a "word" from the "Lord".
I after a time started getting uncomfortable with the whole thing and was thinking that maybe I should be inquireing of the Lord myself.
I know people who are actively trying to get into a ministry of being Word givers.
or prophets and they have seminars for learning how to become this... There is one in January in my town.
I read this scripture Ezekiel 14
And it has conscerned me to the point that I have refused to seek out a prophet. Yet I have been praying and asking the Lord to get word to me concerning some important things in my life, and my son's life and future.
I need to find out what this scripture actually means, so I can inquire of the Lord, through someone else, or myself and get an answer.
Maybe I got a check in my spirit at some meetings was because I felt that, some were using the Lord as a fortune teller, maybe not consiously. But was definately made common.
Please dont be offended, if you function in the prophetic, or Word's of knowledge. Im just trying to seek out what is the balance in all this.
Any ideas or imput..
thanks.

Ezekiel 14
King James Standard Version 1901
1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me. Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.
2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying,
3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them? Son of man, these men have taken their idols into their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Every man of the house of Israel that taketh his idols into his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I Jehovah will answer him therein according to the multitude of his idols;
5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols. that I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.
6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Return ye, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself: For every one of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that separateth himself from me, and taketh his idols into his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet to inquire for himself of me; I Jehovah will answer him by myself:
8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. and I will set my face against that man, and will make him an astonishment, for a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am Jehovah.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, Jehovah, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; And they shall bear their iniquity: the iniquity of the prophet shall be even as the iniquity of him that seeketh [unto him];
11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD.

sermonindex Dec 22, 2007

Brother, I don't see where in the N.T., that anyone "inquires of prophets".

I believe in the five ministerial gifts, but they are equal. No ministry of these five are above the others.

And ~~[i]~~any[/i] believer can be used in any one of the 9 gifts in 1 Corth 12 -- as and whenever God chooses to use them.
God can use any believer to give a "word of knowledge" or "word of wisdom" or "prophecy" (which doesn't make them a prophet.) But he can use any Saint to speak to us.
All Saints have the Indwelling of the Spirit of Truth now. John 16:13. We are to seek the Lord for every step we personally take, for ourselves. "Walk in the Spirit." His sheep know His Voice and follow. We're individually responisble to hear from Him for ourselves. If HE chooses to use another Saint to give us a word, that is up to Him - but not for us to seek anyone out - except maybe a prayer partner.

I have seen websites, where people "inquire of the prophet" on-line and it was very unsettling. Like watching the psychic-hotline.

We inquire of The Lord, after we are regenerated and if He chooses to use another human being, that is totally up to Him and it will normally just be to ~~[i]~~confirm[/i] what He's already spoken to us.

The difference between the prophets of the O.T. and New Testament believers is the Indwelling and Pentecost.

Will pray you hear for yourself.
His Grace.

L

Lowly Dec 22, 2007

Poet,
I think this is a great question to discuss......

The office of the Prophet was in operation, Ezekiel was the Lord's prophet speaking the word of the Lord to His people.....

Moses said in Duet. 18 "The Lord would raise up a Prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall Listen to Him."

This, of course, is speaking of Jesus, and Peter confirms this in Acts 3...........
The Lord is promising to His people that He would give them a prophet..........He is establishing the order of the Prophets.........those that would speak His word to His people...
But this follows the warnings about not imitating those in the land that are going to be driven out because of their detestable practices................

I know there has been a lot of discussion about this, but this is something that needs an answer because it is everywhere ........

In Ezekiel 14, God is speaking to His prophet concerning the condition of the hearts of His people..............He wants to save them, to bring them back to Him...........and the prophet cannot fear the face of man, but must speak what the Lord says..........

Now if the people did not come to the prophet to hear, they would not have received the word that revealed the condition they were in..................

So the Lord is warning us also that the condition of the prophets hearts could be in error.............I know that everyone is familiar with all the warnings and descriptions of false prophets..........

But false prophets don't know that they are deceived..........they are enticed, led away by their own lusts, appetites, greed, desires, ambition............

The office of the prophet is given to us to build and edify the body................we His people must be able to receive the Word and understand the Lord says "Is not My word like fire? and like a hammer which shatters a rock?"

"The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. WHAT DOES STRAW HAVE IN COMMON WITH GRAIN? declares the Lord."

We definitely need to walk with one another circumspectly........making sure our hearts cannot be deceived that they are prepared to receive the word of truth..........
I know for myself that I am growing in the knowledge of the truth,
I am taking heed how I Listen...........the office of the prophet has been given to us, we need to hear the warnings, and be taught by the word of God how this office should be in operation.......

Thanks Poet for that word......
In His amazing love,
Lowly

sermonindex Dec 22, 2007

Getting back to the N.T..

The prophets who we know from the O.T. were so inerrant, that they made it into our Bibles - even whole books by them.

For anyone to claim to be anywhere near that capacity now is wrong. No one now could write a book and add it to the Bible.

Jesus never said that in these last days, that we'd have "an increase in apostles and prophets", but there sure as life has been an increase of those who call themselves such.

What Jesus did say is, there would be an increase in false prophets and false teachers.

Putting those two thoughts together, ought to straighten out a lot of misconceptions.

According to Paul - ALL Saints can "prophecy".

We discussed this on another thread. "America's end is nigh."

Apostles are "missionaries" - period.
G652 ̓πόστολος apostolos
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

Now-a-days, with the "Apostles & Prophets" Movement, the definition of both have been stretched beyond Biblical definitions and authority.

Eph 4 lists the "Ministerial gifts" - apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers.

1 Corth 12 lists the manifestation gifts and Romans 12 - the motivational gifts. Both of those chpt.s mentioning "prophecy".

I do not believe that one need "advertise" that they have any specific "gift".

One need not insist that they are a pastor or a teacher. I'd be a bit leary of anyone forcing that issue and would see that as a sign of ego and a desire for power of influence over the people.

Likewise - a prophet need not advertise --- just speak and their words will find them out, one way or another - but then again - because of 1 Corth 12 and Romans 12 - just prophecying does not make one an Eph 4 "prophet". And no gift in Eph 4 needs to "capitized".

To call these "offices" is to put the "laity beneath them" and that again is not God's intent. They are "servants" and should be the humblest of all - as Moses.

If I have a problem, and feel it is outside of the ability of my brothers and sisters to come to a solution, by going to the Lord with me - I may go to my pastor or an elder, but they are as human as I am, and fortunately, in the church I'm in, are the first to admit it.

Because we're in the times of the falling away from truth, even more caution than ever is needed whenever one sits under any "pastor, teacher or listens to prophets". If their Doctrine is off - they are off.

Again, Any Saint could get a "word" from God and again, it will more often than not, just be a confirmation of what He's already impressed upon us.
Paul was ready for what was awaiting him in Jerusalem when Agabus spoke, but Paul went anyway. Acts 21.

As far as "prophets" go - my first test is their Doctrinal views and their insight into world events - i.e., who's who and who's doing what and which countries are doing what and why they are. Those two are severely important.
A prophet that is off on these things cannot claim to have an extra portion (so to speak) of "The Spirit of ~~[b]~~TRUTH[/b]." or the "spirit of prophecy" which is the "testimony of Jesus" that all the Overcomers are to have. Rev. 19:10

Without "truth" being evident in a life, ANY "prophecies" should be suspect, regardless if it's from one with the ministerial gift of a prophet or just a person giving a prophecy.
Truth is the prerequisite, because of The Spirit of Truth, will not contradict Truth, ever.
If a person has false doctrines or beliefs, how can they "prophecy"?

Prophecies come ~~[i]~~directly[/i] from GOD.
That should put a Holy Reverence in our thoughts on this subject.

There are some good articles on the bottom of this page http://watchman.net/read.html and brother Ravenhill did a good one on "prophets".

We do need to be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves, more than ever.

L

Lowly Dec 23, 2007

So sorry,
I wasn't referring to the modern prophetic movement, or the Apostles and Prophets that are taking authoratative positions over the church. I am not talking about those who call themselves prophets. I am talking about the genuine ministry of the true prophet that is given for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and for the edifying of the body of Christ.

These gifts - Pastors, Teachers, Prophets, Apostles, and Evangelist
These gifts were given to us so that we would not be deceived

Office - position of authority, trust, or service, yes I agree a humble servant.

I am talking about prophets like Ravenhill, Wilkerson, and Conlon who bring a word from the Lord that is like a hammer.

In His amazing love,
Lowly

sermonindex Dec 23, 2007

Hi poet,

You've had good answers to your question so far. I'd like to add emphasis rather than disagreement.

HE_Reigns said

If HE chooses to use another Saint to give us a word, that is up to Him - but not for us to seek anyone out - except maybe a prayer partner.

Sometimes we might share a situation with an elder, or responsible person in our fellowship, so that they can pray for us to get clarity from the Lord. The idea is that we are all His children, and we all have access to the Father, and an older brother or sister in the Lord should already know that if we are to grow spiritually, we have to do our own footslog. That is, we have to wait on God for ourselves, to train our spiritual hearing, and to give us greater stamina in prayer, and for the things of God. This way, we enter into a better rest, than if we are being spoonfed and laid down for the equivalent of an afternoon sleep afterwards ~~[i]~~all the time[/i].

We inquire of The Lord, after we are regenerated and if He chooses to use another human being, that is totally up to Him and it will normally just be to confirm what He's already spoken to us.

If He hasn't spoken to us yet, then we should continue to seek Him for ourselves. Not for confirmation of the word from the other believer necessarily. But if that word should turn out to agree with what the Lord shows us also, then it can be taken as confirmation. I'm not being perverse here. The Lord is not going to show someone else His will for your life, without also showing you His will for your life. This is common sense, as you're the one who is required to come up with the obedience to His will - not the other person.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Once you have heard from God for yourself, you will have the faith to obey.

If the word you seem to be hearing leaves you in confusion, then either it was not from God, or, you have not sifted through all the other words coming to you, enough to isolate God's word from the rest. This takes time, and often it is this heart-searching which God is really after. He wants to know that you are raising Him to the top of your agenda, with your ears pinned back (so to speak).

He has a lot of patience for this, and you will know His will if you are open to it. I am convinced that ~~[i]~~we[/i] know if God has spoken or not. This is not to say we never go through seasons of uncertainty about what He is saying, or, of wondering if it is God who is speaking; but there are times when ~~[u]~~we[/u] would be total ~~[i]~~denial[/i] if we were to go on asking! ~~[u]~~He[/u] knows whether we know we've heard from Him or not, also, (is the truth), just like He knows if we have ~~[i]~~not[/i] heard from Him conclusively (yet).

One last thought: hearing from God is to receive ~~[i]~~His[/i] 'prophecy' for our life.

:-)

sermonindex Dec 23, 2007

Good word Dorcas.

These gifts - Pastors, Teachers, Prophets, Apostles, and Evangelist
These gifts were given to us so that we would not be deceived
Office - position of authority, trust, or service, yes I agree a humble servant.
I am talking about prophets like Ravenhill, Wilkerson, and Conlon who bring a word from the Lord that is like a hammer.

Some people do not have access to any of these.

And I wonder, how much "authority" is "appropriate".
That would be another thread I assume.

The Holy Spirit/the Spirit of Truth has been given to us, so that we "would not be deceived."

Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 ~~[i]~~And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.[/i]
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

No man can prevent us from being deceived, if we are not first hearing from the Holy Spirit for ourselves - Knowing His Voice.

If we are mature and walking in the Spirit - any one of us can bring His Word like a hammer.

The best "ministry" that any of these Ministerial gifted people could give to us, is to make us more dependent on His Spirit, than on themselves.
Also to give us a hunger for His Word, over and above their own Sermons.
That is how they should "equip the Saints".

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 ~~[i]~~That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive[/i];
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

If they are not causing the Saints to fully and wholly learn His Voice, depend on Him alone and learn to study for themselves and discern truth from error by doing both - they've only made the people dependent on themselves and have failed His calling.

They are to lead the Sheep to their Head Shepherd, for complete dependence in Him, to get them through unto the End - during times when there may be no one around to help them make it through or to discern error for them.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.

We are responsible to "hear & follow" privately, individually and not be dependent on anyone - because we will have to stand alone one day and then later, at the end - give an account for what we've done with His Voice and His Word.

He Loves us.

P

poet Dec 23, 2007

Thanks so much guys :-)
You gave me the ballance I was looking for..

I

IRONMAN Dec 24, 2007

sis Annie Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

I believe in the five ministerial gifts, but they are equal. No ministry of these five are above the others.

however the word saiys this:

from 1 Corinthians 12:

~~[b]~~[color=0000FF]27 and ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And some, indeed, did God set in the assembly,[/color][/b]~~[u]~~~~[b]~~[color=0000FF]first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, afterwards powers, afterwards gifts of healings, helpings, governings, divers kinds of tongues;[/color][/b][/u]~~[b]~~[color=0000FF]29 [are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all powers? 30 have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 and desire earnestly the better gifts; and yet a far excelling way do I shew to you[/color][/b]

so the callings aren't equal but are esteemed differently by God and Paul even writes that the Foundation of the Church is the Apostles and Prophets, the foundation isn't the evangelists and teachers, that is part of the superstructure. one can't invert a house and expect the roof to support the whole structure...so these things are unequal and yet they fit together so perfectly in the plan of God... now the wisdom of God in this is that the way the body is fit together is such that the callings don't compete or lord over one another authority because Christ is Head. unlike in some of the organizations we're familiar with here, there is a lot of pushing and shoving, throwing weight around and so on. Not so in the Organization of God! one of the things i found interesting when we contrast this Construct of God is the enemy's emulation of it, there is always strife, even in the hierarchy of the evil host, the principalities, powers, rulers, they are united in hatred against us but there is vying for power hence the rise and fall of kingdoms which are not of God.

like you i don't see any inquiring of the prophets in the N.T. perhaps because as the body is fit together the Spirit of God meets whatever needs are present. He meets those in the manner you said by moving through whomever He chooses and He may send such a saint to us to confirm what He has said.

you also said:

The difference between the prophets of the O.T. and New Testament believers is the Indwelling and Pentecost.

that prompted me to do a little digging and i found that in the O.T. the references say the Spirit of God is "upon" someone so i guess there is a difference of some sort like you said between "upon" and "within"

I have seen websites, where people "inquire of the prophet" on-line and it was very unsettling. Like watching the psychic-hotline.

wow, i've never heard of that before...we need to test these prophets...diligently lest we be sold a bill of goods or worse :-?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

C

ChrisJD Dec 24, 2007

Hi everyone.

Poet, your question here has come to my mind again and so I decided to share this.

I was thinking of verse 4.

I am wondering if this is a warning against seeking God with no intention of changing our ways that we know displease Him? Or of asking Him things but not dealing with the things He has dealt with us about?

Just now Balaam comes to mind. The Bible says that Balaam's sin was covetousness. God told him not to go with the men from Balak the first time and that should have settled it. When the men came back the second time, seeking the Lord should not even have been considered by him - he had his answer already if he had wanted to stand upon the word of the Lord. What, ~~[b]~~would God now change His mind[/b] because more important men came, or because they offered Balaam more money? God had asked him the first time

"What men ~~[i]~~are[/i] these with thee?" as if to say look at who it is that is coming to you, what kind of men they are, and take heed!!

God told him the people were blessed.

So why was he willing to ask again? Was it not that he asked out of his own covetousness?

And here, perhaps just as God warned in this passage in Ezekiel, God answered him according to his heart, and told him to go with the men. But the anger of the Lord was kindled against him.

And maybe that is a similar warning in this passage in Ezekiel, that God may answer us according to our own hearts?

He says in verse 4

"...I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;"

and in verse 5

"That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart..."

I don't want to suggest that we shouldn't seek after God if we find things in our hearts that we know are not right. Where else can we go? But maybe that is the issue here also: why were they seeking God? Was it to know some future event or something else? But why should they care about that if they were not right with Him themselves? Maybe there is a lesson here also that we should put first things first? That our first priority should be to have clean hands and a pure heart before God? James 4:8 comes to mind.

When it says in verse 4

~~[i]~~ ...and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face[/i]

this reminds me Isaiah 5:18, where it says

"Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:"

As if to say, "it's not as though you are struggling against the weight of sin and it is pulling you down, no, you are dragging it behind you like an ox pulling a cart"

Isaiah 29:13-15 comes to mind also.

Reminded of this also...

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"

- Matthew chapter 3 verse 7-8(KJV)

I hope this is helpfull and I hope it is not confusing at all. Please let me know if anything is not clear or confusing.

Chris

sermonindex Dec 24, 2007

Hi Brother Ironman. I've never seen a Church run in a way that the Prophets ran the Church, unless they were fortunate to have a prophet for a pastor. It's normally the pastor who oversees what goes on in the Body. The shepherd over the sheep.

28 And some, indeed, did God set in the assembly,first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, afterwards powers, afterwards gifts of healings, helpings, governings, divers kinds of tongues

I understand vs. 28. He did originally set the church up by the Apostles first.
Pastors and Evangelists didn't even make it into that verse. And the other gifts are rarely seen in most churches.

From what we've seen of churches for the last however many centuries, as far back as we can go - that order in verse 28 just hasn't been the case, nor those gifts even present in most churches - like powers, healing and tongues.

So we're all messed up according to that verse ?

What you said next was good and a hopeful thing -
Quote - ~~[i]~~"now the wisdom of God in this is that the way the body is fit together is such that the callings don't compete or lord over one another authority because Christ is Head. unlike in some of the organizations we're familiar with here, there is a lot of pushing and shoving, throwing weight around and so on. Not so in the Organization of God!"[/i]

That is God's ideal, isn't it.

Good talking with you Brother.

Merry Christmas to you and all of yours!

L

Lowly Dec 24, 2007

He Reigns
Please know I am not saying at all that I agree with inquiring of prophets. I am so sorry again if it came out that way.
I was just trying to go back to the genuine ministerial gifts in Eph 4, and what they were originally intended to be used for.

What you said their goal should be was right, so if they are being used properly then the word of God in Eph 4 would be accomplished.

I am new at this, it may take me some time to get on my feet. :-)

I will need a little grace and mercy,
Lowly

sermonindex Dec 24, 2007

Hi Lowly, I'm taken back by an apology. I don't deserve anything like that. Also, never thought you did feel that we should "inquire of prophets" for our personal directions.
I was addressing the topic and not the person. I only differed in that the 5 ministerials will keep us from deception. That was all from what I saw.
Wanted to keep it to how us - the N.T. Church works and how different the office of the prophet was in the O.T.. It was surely an office then. So were the Priests.
If you have a KJV that's numbered to the Strong's, you see that many times where it uses the word "office", that "office" is not in there, just the positions of ministry themselves, of deacons, bishops or priesthood.

Paul uses this word in Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office/diakonia.

That word diakonia is used 34 times, but only once translated to "office". Mostly it is used as "minitry, ministering, service, relief, serving".

I think that's a more "humble" translation, that's all.

Enjoy your stay Lowly. ;-)

sermonindex Dec 24, 2007

HE_Reigns wrote:
Brother, I don't see where in the N.T., that anyone "inquires of prophets".
I believe in the five ministerial gifts, but they are equal. No ministry of these five are above the others.
And ~~[i]~~any[/i] believer can be used in any one of the 9 gifts in 1 Corth 12 -- as and whenever God chooses to use them.
God can use any believer to give a "word of knowledge" or "word of wisdom" or "prophecy" (which doesn't make them a prophet.) But he can use any Saint to speak to us.
All Saints have the Indwelling of the Spirit of Truth now. John 16:13. We are to seek the Lord for every step we personally take, for ourselves. "Walk in the Spirit." His sheep know His Voice and follow. We're individually responisble to hear from Him for ourselves. If HE chooses to use another Saint to give us a word, that is up to Him - but not for us to seek anyone out - except maybe a prayer partner.
I have seen websites, where people "inquire of the prophet" on-line and it was very unsettling. Like watching the psychic-hotline.
We inquire of The Lord, after we are regenerated and if He chooses to use another human being, that is totally up to Him and it will normally just be to ~~[i]~~confirm[/i] what He's already spoken to us.
The difference between the prophets of the O.T. and New Testament believers is the Indwelling and Pentecost.
Will pray you hear for yourself.
His Grace.

Absolutely!

That's bang on the nail Sister!

I especially like:

We inquire of The Lord, after we are regenerated and if He chooses to use another human being, that is totally up to Him and it will normally just be to ~~[i]~~confirm[/i] what He's already spoken to us.

Thank you for this

Jeannette

I

IRONMAN Dec 24, 2007

sis Annie Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Hi Brother Ironman. I've never seen a Church run in a way that the Prophets ran the Church, unless they were fortunate to have a prophet for a pastor. It's normally the pastor who oversees what goes on in the Body. The shepherd over the sheep.

me neither but it's not so much a matter of the Prophets/Apostles "running the Church" Holy Spirit does that. i believe it's each part of the 5 fold ministry falling in as it were. the role of the pastor scripturally is quite different i'm finding than what we know today. the Original Template which God set at the first is something which ought to have been followed all the way through but somewhere down the line, the enemy slipped in and changed things a lot, from Popery and the foundations thereof things kinda went awry. However in spite of this, God yet draws souls to Himself...if that don't say God is Almighty...somehow the order was messed up, the gifts diminished greatly etc. i believe though we are about to see a Church like at the first, only much more powerful and effective. these are the last days and God intends to Shine in a big way...so much so that all those who have gone before us (the cloud of witnesses) is watching to see us outdo them by His Power. God has saved the best wine for last i believe.

So we're all messed up according to that verse ?

yes ma'am and i'm not sure if the pushing and shoving came before the loss of the order or as a result of it but either way i believe that we're largely out of order and as a result we have many strifes which come as a result of the current structure of the Church which i believe is being shaken. once we get back with the Original Program, i believe much of the strife will be eliminated.

i do pray for this day and long for it and i believe it's not too far of :-D

imagine that, an Organization which ain't dog eat dog...

Merry Christmast to you and yours and Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

L

Lowly Dec 25, 2007

Should not we long for these ministerial gifts to be in operation in their original intended use?
Knowing that they were given for the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry, and edifying of the body of Christ.........

What is the desired end?
That we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ..........

What is one of the benefits/fruits of arriving at this?
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive....

So couldn't we say that these ministerial gifts are given to the body of Christ as another source of help to keep us in the truth?

In His amazing love,
Lowly

sermonindex Dec 25, 2007

HE_Reigns wrote:

~~[b]~~Pastors, Teachers, Prophets, Apostles, and Evangelist
Some people do not have access to any of these.
The Holy Spirit/the Spirit of Truth has been given to us, so that we "would not be deceived."
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 ~~[i]~~And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.[/i]
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

No man can prevent us from being deceived, ~~[i]~~if we are not first hearing from the Holy Spirit for ourselves - Knowing His Voice.[/i]
If we are mature and walking in the Spirit - any one of us can bring His Word like a hammer.
The best "ministry" that any of these Ministerial gifted people could give to us, is to make us more dependent on His Spirit, than on themselves.
Also to give us a hunger for His Word, over and above their own Sermons.
That is how they should "equip the Saints".
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 ~~[i]~~That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive[/i];
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
If they are not causing the Saints to fully and wholly learn His Voice, depend on Him alone and learn to study for themselves and discern truth from error by doing both - they've only made the people dependent on themselves and have failed His calling.
They are to lead the Sheep to their Head Shepherd, for complete dependence in Him, to get them through unto the End - during times when there may be no one around to help them make it through or to discern error for them.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.

We are responsible to "hear & follow" privately, individually and not be dependent on anyone - because we will have to stand alone one day and then later, at the end - give an account for what we've done with His Voice and His Word.
He Loves us.
[/b]
Rather than having to repeat what was on page 1.
I've been exposed to what I'd deem some of the best of these 5 ministerial postions, but if I did not hear His voice for myself, their affect on me would have not have been the same.
Others can reject the truth, whether it's from a prophet or teacher, or whomever --- we all know about that. :-(