Application vs. Over-application of OT to Christians

Hi,

Any good resources out there discussing the issue mentioned in the Subject field? I'm reluctant to push things too far at times, but there are undeniable times of relevance. There are other times I want to 'push the envelope', maybe too far. I know this subject has been discussed, probably, ad infinitum, ad nauseam, but I haven't run into anything much. I'd appreciate anything you can come up with.

Thanks,

Jeffrey

Jeanette,

I guess I am a little stymied by your original question. I asked myself can we ever over apply scripture?

I suppose I could go to extreme lengths, for example when Isaiah says "get thee up into a high mountain." Paul makes it clear "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2Tim. 3:16). It's important to note that Paul is speaking of the OT, the NT had not yet come into being.

I think its important to note that Paul speaks of doctrine, not dogma. He does not say that it is profitable for ceremonial works, but doctrine. The doctrine of grace is the same in the old as the new. Paul takes great pains in his other epistles to prove this point. Hence, the doctrines of the the OT are profitable for reproof,for correction and for training in righteousness.

It is apparent by reading the epistles that Paul neither nullifies the OT system for the Jew nor does he impose it on the Gentile. It seems to me Christians should read the OT in this way. We should look for doctrinal implications of ceremonial Judaism and be amazed that Christ has accomplished all of it for us.

SDG,

Dave

I could have made myself clearer: 2 Chronicles 7:14, is a favorite verse of mine and holds a great truth that I feel free to apply today, even though "If my people" in the ears of the hearers of the time meant the Hebrew nation.

I live in Thailand, and see very little of people who would be considered, "My people" by the above passage. Thus, in a land where some say 25% of the GNP of this land is from the sex trade, where they steal babies and maim them so that they can be beggars - thus a source of income - for their kidnappers for life. Who have no concept of God, and a vastly redefined idea of heaven. This country, that is about 95% Buddhist with about 1% (mostly) nominal Christians suddenly repents from their sins (even though they don't have much in the way of a concept of sin, and consider it bad manners to talk about such things). OK. So that is clearly - at least to me - a place where it's a stretch for me to haphazardly apply OT scriptures.

So, I don't know if you can apply 2 Chr. 7:14 without stretching it - maybe a little too much. In Thailand. However... there are an abundance of more 'hopeful' verses concerning "all nations, etc" as well as many other verses that do apply, and I see Him doing things here that I don't think I'd be witnessing if I was still in comfortable ol' America.

So, "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and forgive their sins and heal their land." Does that apply? Or do I just want it to?

So, I constantly apply it to myself, and to those I teach, and I just never want to go overboard. Teaching in the name of the Lord is the most awesome of responsibilities, and I am always before the Lord requesting His guidance. But I just ran into some 'ammunition' about the going overboard part that deeply matched what the Spirit and the Word have been teaching me lately.

The thing that made me start this thread was something I thought I read on a website about how Jesus is all through the Old Testament - to a much, much greater extent than I have heard others preach and teach about in the past. I spent a couple hours laboriously going through my browser's histories to get that back. Then I realized I downloaded it as a PDF file when I first found it. It turned out to be another great offering by the (especially recently) much maligned Frank Viola. It's called "Beyond Bible Study" and, I found it on his website,(if memory serves).

Forgive me, but I just found this some minutes ago, and had to do a couple things, but I'm about half way through its 17 pages, so I can't recommend it whole heartedly because I haven't read it all yet.

In fact, I recommend none of Frank Viola's books. If people are happy with today's syncretistic church - more pagan in its practices than Christian, he's a good person to avoid. I've held most of his ideas since only a few years old in the Lord - or for about 25 years. All I know is that since I stumbled into a church in Ko Samui and found a pastor that was of nearly like mind about we, as Christians, truly seeking to take our part as members of His body, all kinds of amazing things have occurred. A few have left - to be sure - but many are coming to a point of wanting to devote themselves to Him more seriously than they have even thought - and some of these after walking with Him for 20 + years. Thai's are coming to the Lord. Heresies like the prosperity gospel are being dealt with, and the promoters of this are being won over, not by confrontation, but by the words of Jesus (in context) and by love.

Reading through this, I've probably made it clear as mud. Personally, I'm coming away from this with a greater desire to see Christ in the OT, and apply OT truths more universally - often very stern (putting it mildly), but often full of hope to today's lukewarm, backslidden church - hence with a greater sense of freedom. Not license. I'll still look at the historical context, and the original recipients of the words, but I think that because of what the Lord has been teaching me just recently about how his Word and His Spirit are one, and how he uses them to interact in our hearts daily - to be more open when something wasn't written specifically to Christians, but maybe to someone in the OT.

BTW - about this interaction. God has led me to draw some others around me to read in the same scriptures, and do daily devotions from "My Utmost for His Highest" with others (available online). I recently found a bunch of copies in Thai, and have given some of them out, and it's wonderful to see, how what we - in spite of language and cultural barriers- are going through as a body can be seen in the common ground of what His Spirit is doing, what His word is doing, and what is happening in our common devotions. Just some serendipitous events that could only come from Him.

Whew! A long response! Gotta go!

Jeffrey

Jeffery,

Have you studied the book of Hebrews in light of your question? The writer talks a lot about religious OT law, and the moral law and how it relates to the Believer. Perhaps if you make this a matter of prayer, asking God to reveal His answer to your questions, He will show in the proper time.(James 1:5). Just ask Him to teach you to recognize his voice when he speaks so you can learn. Gets downright interesting, brother.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Have you studied the book of Hebrews in light of your question? The writer talks a lot about religious OT law, and the moral law and how it relates to the Believer. Perhaps if you make this a matter of prayer, asking God to reveal His answer to your questions, He will show in the proper time.(James 1:5). Just ask Him to teach you to recognize his voice when he speaks so you can learn. Gets downright interesting, brother.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Hi,

Well, Ginnyrose's question that has come to the fore in my heart many times. Seeing that Hebrews is arguably the second most important book in addressing the idea as Christ as Messiah, only after Matthew, and is the most important regarding how Jesus is the fulfillment of all of the Old Testament religious practice, then I'd answer your question, yes. With the possible exception of how much we already see Him in the Old Testament to begin with. After all, what source materials were Matthew and Hebrews dealing with? I would say that I need to study it deeper, then, again, I can say that about anything. I just spent 5 days on the study of one word REPENT, and consider that I've only scratched the surface - and that -mostly in intellectual - not heart understanding. Thomas Akempis, in the beginning of “The Imitation of Christ”, said, “I’d rather feel contrition than know how to define it.”

I'm preparing an extremely involved post on another old thread that deals with Frank Viola, and am finding myself bogged down on a couple words there too.

Gets downright interesting, sister! The next part deals with "how" He is teaching me.

The Holy Spirit has been teaching me in ways I haven’t experienced in many decades. It's the same message in many facets. There’s no question in my spirit where it is coming from, because of all the impossible ways that it keeps getting repeated to me through many disparate sources. The Bible, Friends, answers to prayer, study tools I use, my daily devotions from "My Utmost For His Highest", etc., all speaking the same things daily, but adding a little more each time.

This is all about the interconnectedness we experience with Him when we decide to start acting as members of His body, and stop just being people who attend church. After being led recently into this particular church - the only English speaking one in this area of Thailand - I saw that about 10% of the members seem desirous of seeking the Lord together, and, having my heart pre-prepared for this idea after 30 years of rejection at the hands of the churched. I think that the Lord has prepared a field where the fallow ground is ready to be broken in all our lives.

So just last night I read a short article available from Frank Viola's site that, again, added - or more correctly, multiplied, or, even better, made a quantum leap - to what the Spirit is teaching me. Things I felt the Lord maybe wanted to use me to begin instituting in this new church as early as the first week after I first walked in the door are now being brought forth, and reinforced in this article, shedding light on long-held questions in my mind, confirming His working, and answering questions about the interlacing of the OT and NT, that have been on my mind long before I started this post (years before, in fact), but now are being answered 'accidentally" over the course of the last few days.

"Accidentally"... Right!

Anyhow, here's a link to something I think could turn many ideas of how we look at Christ in the OT on their heads, but Frank goes much further into them... well, you're going to have to read all 17 pages to find the answer. He says it much better than I can. It could change your life, or not. Give it a read. Or not, it's up to you. After all 17 pages is an awful sacrifice.

Ginnyrose - Rereading this I want you to know I'm not directing this at you at all. I don't know much about where you stand. I started at the top answering your Hebrews question a little, but got into a broader tangent about what the Lord's been teaching me, and then I get into talking about Frank Viola who people are ignoring because he's apparently said that one man has said some things that he agrees with, and other's on this site think that's enough to dismiss Viola's teachings completely. Make no mistake. I think Viola's teachings constitute a true threat to the established church. I think the Body of Christ always has.

I know nothing of the Emerging Church. Apparently others here believe a man named McLaren, to be something like the “Emerging Church Movement Pope”. I haven't the foggiest, other than hearing there is no one monolithic, “Emerging Church Movement” and, frankly, today it’s not my main concern. I may study it later. My problem is the Submerging Church, and the way that we have placed our traditions above the Word of God, and shipwrecked and sunk many before they could learn to express as best as they could their proper function as part of His body in the Local church. My zeal for Jesus includes zeal for His body, In light of that I thought Viola's opening paragraph (in the PDF link I provided below) is apropos.

“In my personal judgment many segments of the Christian world today - including much of the emerging church conversation and the house church movement have lost the centrality of Jesus Christ,
In addition, for many Christians, the Old Testament has fallen out of functional use. Scores of present-day believers do not find anything of spiritual value in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy.”

From "Beyond Bible Study : Finding Jesus Christ in Scripture" by Frank Viola (this is a 17 page pdf. download)

[url=http://www.ptmin.org/beyond.pdf]Beyond Bible Study[/url]

Thanks,

Jeffrey

[url=http://www.ptmin.org/]Frank Viola's Website[/url]

Caution: When you go to Viola's home page (link above) you'll get confronted with an offer to buy his book. Pagan Christianity which is on sale.
Thought I'm thinking of buying a bunch of them to give away, I'd suggest you read this cautionary excerpt of what Viola says about his book first.

"Each chapter will trace an accepted traditional church practice. It will then tell the story of where this practice came from. But, more importantly, it will explain how this practice stifles the functional Headship of Jesus Christ and hampers the functioning of His Body.
If you are unwilling to have your Christianity seriously examined, do not read beyond this page. Give this book to Goodwill immediately! Spare yourself the trouble of having your Christian life turned upside down." (pg.28, 2002 printing)

Earlier, (pg. 26) a different caution:

"As Christians, we are taught by our leaders to believe certain ideas and to behave certain ways, We have a Bible, yes. But we are conditioned to read it with the lens handed to us by the Christian tradition to which we belong. We are taught to obey one denomination (or movement) and never to challenge what it teaches,
(At this moment all the rebellious hearts are applauding and are plotting to wield the above paragraphs to wreak havoc in their churches: If that is you, dear rebellious heart, you have missed my point by a considerable distance. I do not stand with you. My advice; Either leave your church quietly, refusing to cause division, or be at peace with it. There is a vast gulf between rebellion and taking a stand for what is true.)"

Jeffrey,

You said "So, I don't know if you can apply 2 Chr. 7:14 without stretching it - maybe a little too much." This particular verse has caused me to do some mental flips as well.

Since this verse is never quoted in the NT, nor are the conditions spoken of (if . . .then), I would say that the verse must be looked at in the context of the dedication of the temple. Solomon's plea is to an Israel that would soon apostate. God's response is that the nation would be sent into exile. But, that nation, the nation that is called by His name, if it repents would return to the land. God would remove all the curses fropm the land and bless His people.

I've heard televangelists and politicians quote this verse in the context of the US. Its like an insurance policy to them. "We need to do this national prayer thing so God will bless us." 2Chr. 7:14 becomes some kind of magic formula to cause the sovereign God to act on behalf of the most materialistic nation the world has ever seen. I believe this is a stench in His nostrils.

Instead, we should see the importance of repentance in this passage. God knows of Israel's immanent apostacy, and He commands repentance. God continues to command repentance, but it is couple with trusting His Son- the true Israel of God. We are brought into His body and our land is not of this earth, but of Heaven.

Christ has accomplished this "land-healing" for us. We pray, we repent, but the land has been healed.

SDG,

Dave

To all concerned who read this post, please read the link "Beyond Bible Study" in my post below.

That brings together everything.

I'm just trying to find Jesus in the Old Testament as much as possible. And with great love and respect for the Old Testament, want to see it applied as broadly as possible, without actually being stupid about the subject. Since my original post I read the link below from Frank Viola, which, in 17 pages (15 if you knock out the credits) does a great job of answering that - to which you are still asking questions. Like, whether things should be in quotes or not?

Please get off that and spend an hour or less reading the link.

In short; Of course scripture can be over applied! Satan does that! It can me misapplied, warped, twisted and hammered into unrecognizable shapes, and has been through the millennia.

But finding Jesus, in every passage, in the book of Leviticus (as Viola explains in the article you haven't read). Now that's like a pearl of great price. Sorry for over-applying the parable.

Dave - I think you hit the nail on the head with regard to 2 Chronicles 7:14. But I think that though it came specifically to Israel, through Solomon, as a special message from the Lord, and contains some very scary warnings that would come to pass and to Israel. I agree that for every TV preacher to apply it to the US today is ludicrous.

But I am always thinking "Body of Christ" - Locally assembled saints. I think, as such we are not His people Israel, but if we, as a body, "truly" humble ourselves, "truly" pray, and "truly" seek His face, and "truly" repent and turn from our wicked ways, wherever we were he would restore our relationship with Him. But probably not with the exact promise He gave Solomon. I'm in Thailand, and these are not His people, and this is not His people's land, and they aren't about to repent... yet.

Without 2 Chr, 7:14 the word has ample promises to Israel, but also to others, both corporately and individually that contains the promise of His being there for those who seek Him. So, if the small fellowship of believers I'm with took 7:14 seriously, i.e. took Him at His word, then I believe we would certainly, "Hear from heaven" and many things would change in our walk with Him.

Also - and you'd have to be as sold on the idea of the body of Christ - as opposed to the traditional 'church' - as I am. You'd realize I'm talking about a corporate (local body) movement in this direction. History is full of "great men" of God. These I will not denigrate, but I think God wants for Himself, "a great people".

Our hope is in Christ. I think our time for being cowboys in the faith - rugged individuals! Is best left in the dust heap. It doesn't take great numbers to be the local representation of the body of Christ. I think great numbers might be counter-productive, but find a hard time explaining that in the context of Acts 2.

I didn't want to give this away, because it spoke to my heart so wonderfully when I read it, I wanted it to be a surprise to you, too, but at the end of the "Beyond Bible Study" Viola makes quite a case for the balance that can occur when we study the Bible together. Now, I don't take this for a minute to be the, "What's this scripture mean to you?" error. But, rather, I have seen this work where I might be the main teacher and someone will bring up something that was definitely meant to be brought out, and was a blessing to all, that wasn't part of my plan. How much better, if we're all searching the scriptures Berean-style, and open to each other, and even more to the Holy Spirit within them.

In conclusion, I think we can find Jesus Christ more widely in the OT than I think most of us realize. I still would like to be led to more info regarding this subject. But I think if we agree to assemble with brethren of like mind who want to apply a Cristological and Ecclesial Hermenutic to the interpretation of scriptures we can learn and grow corporately in ways far beyond our individual abilities, Because wherever two or more are gathered... Guess what? He doesn't add to our abilities, He doesn't magnify or multiply our abilities. He is infinite! He takes our measly number and raises it to the power of infinity! Hallelujah!

Thanks

Jeffrey

I know nothing of the Emerging Church.

No time like the present to learn just a little.

Frank Viola speaking about Brian McLaren:

“Despite the unfair (and often malicious and misguided) criticism he has received, I believe Brian is spearheading a very important work today. While I've not read everything he's written nor have I heard everything he's taught, I've never heard him say or write anything that wasn't in line with the spirit and attitude of Jesus Christ”. - Frank Viola (taken from his website)

While Frank does attempt to safely distance himself from potential problems arising from Brian McLaren, I would dare to say that Mr. Viola has not read very much of McLaren’s work at all.

Brian McLaren has stood in the churches of Sodom and Gomorrah and preached a message of unity. I have read two of Brian McLaren’s books (along with several articles) and I can sum them both up in one word…TOLERANCE.

I’m all for breaking from useless tradition when need be, but Mclaren refuses to call sin, sin.

This tolerance of sin is usually hidden under the guise of unity. The “I’m O.K., your O.K.” and “ It’s all good!” slogans that are being broadcast from many pulpits today are not helping to form Christian unity, but are instead working to form an un-Godly alliance between men and the devil himself.

We must remember that Jesus was beaten and killed for the message He preached.

This is one of the churches Brian McLaren and Jay Baker have spoken at more than once. It is pastured by Randy and Gary Eddy-McCain(partners). The story of God’s acceptance of their lifestyle can be found…along with Galleries including numerous pictures of McLaren and Baker at various activities.

http://www.sherwoodopendoor.org/index2.html

This is not an attack on you, Jeffrey, or of Frank Viola for that matter…just a little taste of what SOME (not all) of the emergent church is condoning.

I know that many say pollen is found in weeds as well as flowers, but we must also remember that the same can be said of poison. Less than one percent of a rattlesnake is poison…but that’s all that is needed to kill.

I have been blessed to hear of your experiences in Thailand. I hope you share more.

Peace be with you brother

I'm just trying to find Jesus in the Old Testament as much as possible. And with great love and respect for the Old Testament, want to see it applied as broadly as possible, without actually being stupid about the subject.

R.A. Torrey claimed that Jesus Christ could be found in every page of the Old Testament - if one was willing to dig deep enough. I certainly haven't found Christ on every page yet, but as the years go by, I'm seeing Him more and more in the most obscure places in Scripture. It's really exciting to suddenly find Jesus in the nooks and crannies of Ezra, Job, in Numbers - and virtually all throughout Leviticus and Exodus; and even in the seemingly insipid geneologies than begin 1 Chronicles...

All that being said, I should caution everyone here to take heed (well, here I go again! More warnings!). Finding typologies really does nothing in terms of making one more godly, more surrendered to God, and it doesn't enrich one's prayer life. In fact, a person can find Christ everywhere in the OT and allow such revelations to "puff" him or her up. We are not exhorted in the New Testament to seek out typologies as much as we are God's righteousness and a life free from sin. I remember at one time I could point out Jesus in very mundane passages and sort of "wow" my listeners and make it seem I was so spiritual and full of knowledge and Bible prowess. And I was! The only problem was, my heart was polluted, like a city with broken-down walls. Brethren, it is possible to simultaneously have a dull heart and a sharp mind. Such seems to be the bane of many preachers.

When astronomers find new galaxies or planets, such changes do not effectuate moral climates on earth, as men will still war and lust and covet and horde. If we really want to see Jesus in the Old Testament in all His glory and splendor, the telescopes we use must have a lenses of clean hands and pure hearts. Such telescopes are indispensible, as they not only fill with dazzling light the "darkest" areas of the sky, but they also allow the observer to live and experience what they see.

Brother Paul

GodsPeace wrote:
To all concerned who read this post, please read the link "Beyond Bible Study" in my post below.

That brings together everything.

I'm just trying to find Jesus in the Old Testament as much as possible. And with great love and respect for the Old Testament, want to see it applied as broadly as possible, without actually being stupid about the subject. Since my original post I read the link below from Frank Viola, which, in 17 pages (15 if you knock out the credits) does a great job of answering that - to which you are still asking questions. Like, whether things should be in quotes or not?

Please get off that and spend an hour or less reading the link.

In short; Of course scripture can be over applied! Satan does that! It can me misapplied, warped, twisted and hammered into unrecognizable shapes, and has been through the millennia.

But finding Jesus, in every passage, in the book of Leviticus (as Viola explains in the article you haven't read). Now that's like a pearl of great price. Sorry for over-applying the parable.

Dave - I think you hit the nail on the head with regard to 2 Chronicles 7:14. But I think that though it came specifically to Israel, through Solomon, as a special message from the Lord, and contains some very scary warnings that would come to pass and to Israel. I agree that for every TV preacher to apply it to the US today is ludicrous.

But I am always thinking "Body of Christ" - Locally assembled saints. I think, as such we are not His people Israel, but if we, as a body, "truly" humble ourselves, "truly" pray, and "truly" seek His face, and "truly" repent and turn from our wicked ways, wherever we were he would restore our relationship with Him. But probably not with the exact promise He gave Solomon. I'm in Thailand, and these are not His people, and this is not His people's land, and they aren't about to repent... yet.

Without 2 Chr, 7:14 the word has ample promises to Israel, but also to others, both corporately and individually that contains the promise of His being there for those who seek Him. So, if the small fellowship of believers I'm with took 7:14 seriously, i.e. took Him at His word, then I believe we would certainly, "Hear from heaven" and many things would change in our walk with Him.

Also - and you'd have to be as sold on the idea of the body of Christ - as opposed to the traditional 'church' - as I am. You'd realize I'm talking about a corporate (local body) movement in this direction. History is full of "great men" of God. These I will not denigrate, but I think God wants for Himself, "a great people".

Our hope is in Christ. I think our time for being cowboys in the faith - rugged individuals! Is best left in the dust heap. It doesn't take great numbers to be the local representation of the body of Christ. I think great numbers might be counter-productive, but find a hard time explaining that in the context of Acts 2.

I didn't want to give this away, because it spoke to my heart so wonderfully when I read it, I wanted it to be a surprise to you, too, but at the end of the "Beyond Bible Study" Viola makes quite a case for the balance that can occur when we study the Bible together. Now, I don't take this for a minute to be the, "What's this scripture mean to you?" error. But, rather, I have seen this work where I might be the main teacher and someone will bring up something that was definitely meant to be brought out, and was a blessing to all, that wasn't part of my plan. How much better, if we're all searching the scriptures Berean-style, and open to each other, and even more to the Holy Spirit within them.

In conclusion, I think we can find Jesus Christ more widely in the OT than I think most of us realize. I still would like to be led to more info regarding this subject. But I think if we agree to assemble with brethren of like mind who want to apply a Cristological and Ecclesial Hermenutic to the interpretation of scriptures we can learn and grow corporately in ways far beyond our individual abilities, Because wherever two or more are gathered... Guess what? He doesn't add to our abilities, He doesn't magnify or multiply our abilities. He is infinite! He takes our measly number and raises it to the power of infinity! Hallelujah!

Thanks

Jeffrey

Jeffrey,

Sorry it has taken so long to reply. We are on the same page brother.

SDG,

Dave

GodsPeace wrote:
In conclusion, I think we can find Jesus Christ more widely in the OT than I think most of us realize. I still would like to be led to more info regarding this subject.

"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself" (Lk. 24.27).

(Christ talking with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus.)

The Old Testament is a rich treasure chest full of New Testament truth. But we must turn on our "New Testament reading lamp," and in the Light of that Lamp read the Old.

But even with that, our challenge is to let Christ do with us as He did with those two disciples of old. Their hearts burned within them as He spoke and walked along with them. It was Christ revealing Christ.

And then He did an even more wondrous thing with those two men, revealing Himself even further. When they constrained the Man to abide with them for the night "He took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave it to them. And their eyes were opened and they KNEW HIM."

This is what I want and seek. Let Him by His Holy Spirit speak, and cause my heart to burn within me as He opens to me wondrous things out of His law.

But let me not settle for that. Let Him then bless, and break, so break the Bread of Life that I SEE Him, and KNOW Him...

I am so hungry these days for this. I want to SEE Him. I want to KNOW Him in a way I have never known Him before.

AD