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King Saul – A Man Who Started Well -poonen

sermonindex Dec 24, 2007


[b]King Saul – A Man Who Started Well[/b]
[i]by Zac Poonen[/i]

We read in 1 Sam 9:15-17, the Lord told Samuel : "Tomorrow about this time I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be king over My people Israel" When Samuel saw Saul, the Lord said to him, "Behold, this is the man." Samuel spoke to Saul and. "took a flask of oil, poured it on his head and said, 'The Lord has anointed you a ruler over His inheritance'" (1Sam.10:1). Saul was absolutely surprised, for he did not expect this at all. He was after all, just an ordinary man But for God to pick him out would indicate that God had seen many good qualities in him. And so Samuel told him, "The Spirit of the Lord will come upon you mightily, you will prophesy, and you will be changed into another man" (10:6). This is indeed a wonderful word that describes what happens to a man when he is filled with the Holy Spirit: He is changed into another man. This is what all of us need to experience continually.

But Saul had to be recognised by the people also as the man whom God had chosen to be their king. So Samuel called all the people together and told them that a king would be selected by God from their midst. Samuel did not name Saul. Instead he cast lots – by tribes first, then by families and then by individual names – believing that the Lord would sovereignly control the lot. The lot finally fell on Saul. When they looked for Saul and they couldn’t find him because he had disappeared. He had hidden himself, because he did not want to become the king Notice ten good qualities that Saul had.

1. He was faithful and thorough in his work - In Chapter 9:3, we read that his father Kish had lost his donkeys. Kish told Saul to go and search for them. Saul conducted a thorough search in all the hill country of Ephraim and the land of Shalishah. His father had given him a job to do, and he did it thoroughly. He didn't just go looking for the donkeys for a few minutes and come back saying, "I can’t find them." God picks up people who are faithful in small matters like looking for lost donkeys!

2. He was wise - When a long time had elapsed and he still hadn't found any of the donkeys, he told his servant, "Let’s go back because my father will now be more concerned about us than the donkeys." (10:5).

3. He knew how to respect God's servants - When his servant suggested that they go and meet a servant of God in the city, Saul said, "Let's take a present for him" (10:.7).

4. He had a humble opinion about himself - When Samuel told Saul about God having chosen him, he replied, "Who am I? Am I not a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel and my family the least of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin?" (9:21).

5. He did not boast - When his uncle asked him what Samuel had said, Saul told his uncle that Samuel said his donkeys had been found, but he did not tell his uncle about Samuel anointing him as king (10:15,16).

6. He stayed in the background - When they selected him to be the king he hid himself in the baggage. He was a man who wanted to be hidden (10:22).

7. He was longsuffering - When Saul went to his house, certain worthless men said, "How can this man deliver us?" They despised him and did not bring any present. But he kept silent even though he was publicly anointed as king (10:27).

8. He was zealous to help those in need - When certain people of Israel were attacked by their enemies, they sent messengers to Saul, who immediately gathered people to go and help them (11:1-7).

9. He was courageous - Saul went and fought the Ammonite enemies courageously and saved the Israelites (11:11).

10. He forgave his enemies - When Saul came back victorious from the battle, some people wanted to kill those who had earlier rejected Saul as king. But he would not allow anyone to be killed (11:12,13).

This was the man God chose, who had all these wonderful qualities. Yet in a few years he had lost his contact with God, lost the anointing of the Spirit, lost his humility, lost his character, lost his kingdom and lost everything. This is the sad story of many servants of God today too, who started out well.

sermonindex Dec 24, 2007

Yes..Saul had all those qualities, moral qualities, but I can't ever see that Saul had a real genuine heart for God - from the beginning.

P
PaulWest Dec 24, 2007

Yes..Saul had all those qualities, moral qualities, but I can't ever see that Saul had a real genuine heart for God - from the beginning.

Brother, this is a sad thing to say publically, only because it is impossible for you to have looked into Saul's heart from the beginning. Such things belong only to God, and if we must judge, why not judge admirably and righteously and give the disgraced man the benfit of the doubt? Remember that the same measure you exact on others shall be measured back against you. Brother, how can anyone discern the [i]genuineness[/i] of the heart of a man they've never met face to face?

I am easily of the opinion that Saul started off genuine - for I have no reason or substantiating proof to suspect otherwise - and that God obviously saw something unique in his character and heart. Samuel obviously saw something also, for he wept when the kingdom was taken from Saul. And we also ought to weep when a man falls from grace.

Leave such speculation of his genuineness to God, and continue on with a pure conscience, being merciful in your judgment and taking heed lest you fall also. God has many painful ways of altering believers' hearts who cast unjustified criticisms upon the fallen. Trust me on this.

;-)

sermonindex Dec 25, 2007

Hi Paul,

and that God obviously saw something unique in his character and heart.

Nothing in scripture suggest that. (You're actually doing what you accuse me of doing - except your judging what you [i]think[/i] God saw.) Just because God uses someone in no way endorses that person. Take Balaam for example -

Israel lusted after a king and God gave them one after the flesh. There is no God given testimony from scripture regarding Saul's Godliness nor ANYTHING recorded about his life that would suggest it. Saul and David are direct opposites...like Cain and Able, Jacob and Esau, Hagar and Sarah, Mt. Sinai and Mt. Zion, the old man and new man, flesh and spirit.

If you can show me scripture that suggest that Saul was Godly...I'll believe the scriptures.

And Brother Zac, who I respect and learn from, does the same thing you accuse me of doing as well. He [i]assumes[/i] that Saul started well. And for some reason all those qualities are made known about Saul but [i]nothing is recorded[/i] about his heart, zeal, or love for God. In fact, what is recorded about David and Saul shows us who really started out well and why. Maybe that's the real lesson (at least one of many).

P
PaulWest Dec 25, 2007

You're actually doing what [b]you accuse me[/b] of doing
And Brother Zac, who I respect and learn from, does the same thing [b]you accuse me[/b] of doing as well.

Please, brother, no one is accusing you. Satan is the accuser. You made a public statement of opinion, a judgment, and I offered my own as well. You're asking me to show you from scripture where I have reason to believe Saul was genuine from the beginning, and Zac has already shown a good case from the article. In fact, he has shown ten reasons. Can you provide even [i]one[/i] to argue your case? I would ask you now to show from scripture how you have come to believe Saul was never genuine.

But, please, let's leave all the allusions of personal "accusations" out of the discussion; all I've done here is challenge you. Can you defend your view and show justification from scripture that Saul was never genuine?

Brother Paul

P
PaulWest Dec 25, 2007

Take Balaam for example

Yes, we can take Balaam for an example. I also have reason to believe Balaam may have started his carreer as a good prophet, right with God. You cannot prove otherwise, though one can argue a strong case that because God already had a history of legitimately speaking though him (and indeed, it was Israel's God and not a devil) this fact alone demonstrates that Balaam may have begun his ministry with a good heart, and thus was chosen by God on account of virtue in younger days.

sermonindex Dec 25, 2007

Brother Paul,

Please, let's not play word games.


Please, brother, no one is accusing you

You accused me of judging..and I did... based on scripture (just as you did). I could have easily worded it different but it would have meant the same thing. Instead of saying "your accusing me of" I could have said "you think I'm judging"...it's all the same.

If the attributes that Zac Poonen listed equate to being Godly then this world is filled with a lot of Godly unconverted people.

I know of nothing in scripture that says or suggest that Saul was Godly (genuine heart for God). I can find that with David though. (David was zealous for the Glory of God and trusted in Him.) Zac suggest that Saul started out right. If you don't start out with God you don't start out right....regardless if your good qualities are without number.

sscott

also brother, I'm not mad or anything. hope it doesn't come across that way! :)

P
PaulWest Dec 25, 2007

I could have easily worded it different but it would have meant the same thing. Instead of saying "your accusing me of" I could have said "you think I'm judging"...it's all the same.

Sorry, brother, it's just that the word "accuse", to me, has ugly connotations; it's inextricably linked to blameworthiness and crime. I just think you chose a harsh word (I guess you just need to read on my side of discussion:)), it sort of makes it look like I am trying to publically condemn you here, or prosecute you ...at least that's how I'm taking it. Brother, I know this isn't how you feel.

The whole reason I challenged you is, again, why you have automatically assumed Saul was never genuine when Zac gave ten good reasons why he was, without the Bible having to state implicitly that "Saul was a righteous king". At least we can agree that David regarded Saul as "God's anointed" - as did Samuel who anointed him, and God doesn't anoint the ungodly. God fully intended to give Saul the kingdom, God hand-picked him and directed Samuel to him. To assume Saul was ungodly in these early days contradicts what we know about God's principle of honoring men who honor Him. Can you give one hint that would compell us to chalk off Saul's [i]entire life as ingenuine[/i] in terms of godly affection (other than the Bible not deliberately mentioning it per se).

I'm not mad, either, I promise. :) This may sound bogus, but my point isn't to win this; I am just curious as to how you came to this deduction despite Poonen's fair (as I see it) article.

God bless you, and Merry Christmas!

C
ChrisJD Dec 25, 2007

Hi brothers,

One thing that may be different is how the Scripture says of David, that God [i]was with[/i] him.


David said God's gentleness had made him great.


Merry Christmas to you all :-)


And God's love to you.

P
PaulWest Dec 25, 2007

"And Samuel said to all the people, See him (Saul) whom the Lord hath chosen, [i]that there is none like him among all the people[/i]" (I Sam. 10:24)

Compare this to:

"And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, [i]that there is none like him in the earth..[/i]"

Did God say this regarding Saul because of his physical features? God looks upon the heart, the same standard he used later to pick out David among his tall, handsome brethren.

sermonindex Dec 25, 2007


Sorry, brother, it's just that the word "accuse" has very negative, legal connotations; it's inextricably linked to blameworthiness and crime. I just think you chose a harsh word (I guess you just need to read on my side of discussion:)), it sort of makes it look like I am trying to publically condemn you here, or prosecute you ...at least that's how I'm taking it. Brother, I know this isn't how you feel.

Yes..sorry brother. That wasn't my intention.

At least we can agree that David regarded Saul as "God's anointed" - as did Samuel who anointed him, and God doesn't anoint the ungodly.

Don't forget - Judas was one of the twelve but was of the devil. God uses men for His purposes.

Can you give one hint that would compell us to chalk off Saul's entire life as ingenuine in terms of godly affection

Yes..the very first instructions for worship to God given to him by Samuel were not obeyed. Nor do you see the love for God that is clearly seen in David.

Maybe I'm missing some passage you are thinking about? Can you show me where you see Saul manifesting His love for God or having jealousy for His name?

sermonindex Dec 25, 2007

"And Samuel said to all the people, See him (Saul) whom the Lord hath chosen, that there is none like him among all the people" (I Sam. 10:24)

Did God say this regarding Saul because of his physical features?


"And he had a choice and handsome son whose name was Saul. There was not a more handsome person than he among the children of Israel. From his shoulders upward he was taller than any of the people." 1 Sam 9:2


Saul was after the flesh
David was after the Spirit.

David = testimony of being after God's own heart
Saul = no testimony from God.

P
PaulWest Dec 25, 2007

Yes..the very first instructions for worship to God given to him by Samuel were not obeyed. Nor do you see the love for God that is clearly seen in David.

Yes, this is when he fell. But in the beginning of his reign, God gave Saul a new heart (1 Sam. 9:10). The Spirit of God would come upon Saul as it came upon Samson, and godly anger would burn in him (1 Sam. 11:6).

Can you show me where you see Saul manifesting His love for God or having jealousy for His name?

Sure, how about when it was reported to Saul that the men of Israel were eating meat with blood in it? (I Sam. 14:33) What was Saul's reaction? He rebuked the people and obeyed the law of Moses, and commanded them to drain all the blood before eating the meat. Then, after this:

"...Saul built an altar to the Lord. It was the first of the altars he built for the Lord" (I Sam. 14:35).

Shortly after this, however, things spiraled quickly downhill :).

C
ChrisJD Dec 25, 2007

Brother Paul,


I think the passage you mentioned may have been in regards to Saul's features, but, maybe it could have been his disposition also. He may have even been a great man?


But if he was, wouldn't that give an opportunity to demonstrate how even our best are not up to the challenge of walking with God, in and of themselves? After all, this was the king of Israel, a people who heretofore had been ruled by God Himself. For when the people asked for a King, God told Samuel


[i]...they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them[/i]


And so, the man that was to rule them, was ruling them in God's stead. What a high challenge to put it lightly!


David said of this:


"The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spoke to me, He that ruleth over men [i]must be[/i] just, ruling in the fear of God. And [i]he shall be[/i] as the light of the morning, [i]when[/i] the sun riseth, [i]even[/i] a morning without clouds; [i]as[/i] the tender grass [i]springing[/i] out of the earth by clear shining after rain."


- 2Samuel chapter 23 verses 3-4(KJV)


But even david says of his own reign

[i]Although my house be not so with God...[/i]

So perhaps Saul was a man of shining character and integrity, yet was that enough to reign over God's people? Could that sustain him and enable him to rule as God?

A while back I was meditating on the passage where Goliath is challenging the armies of Israel. It says that as Goliath was challenging them, when Saul and all of Israel heard it


[i]...they were dismayed, and greatly afraid[/i]

This made me to think how even the best of us are not up to the challenge of the Devil. Only the man of God's choosing was. Who came in the power and name of God, by faith and not in his own strength. So it was with David against Goliath. So it was with Christ against Satan.

It reminded me of the Hymn A Mighty Fortress is our God


A mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing;
Our helper He, amid the flood of mortal ills prevailing:
For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe;
His craft and power are great, and, armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not his equal.

Did we in our own strength confide, our striving would be losing;
Were not the right Man on our side, the Man of God’s own choosing:
Dost ask who that may be? Christ Jesus, it is He;
Lord Sabaoth, His Name, from age to age the same,
And He must win the battle.

And though this world, with devils filled, should threaten to undo us,
We will not fear, for God hath willed His truth to triumph through us:
The Prince of Darkness grim, we tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure, for lo, his doom is sure,
One little word shall fell him.

That word above all earthly powers, no thanks to them, abideth;
The Spirit and the gifts are ours through Him Who with us sideth:
Let goods and kindred go, this mortal life also;
The body they may kill: God’s truth abideth still,
His kingdom is forever.

Blessings to you,

sermonindex Dec 25, 2007


Hello brethren,

I nearly posted earlier, in support of sscott's first comment, and would like to suggest that one of the reasons Saul didn't kill the people he could have, or should have, was that he didn't have that no-compromise killer-instinct which is needed to bring appropriate sacrifices for sin, and therefore, to bring an end to sin (which Agag and his kingdom represents). Also Saul showed himself incredibly vulnerable to public opinion rather than to God's opinion. I believe his attitude constituted idolatry.

1 Samuel 18:20
And Michal Saul's daughter loved David: and they told Saul, and the thing pleased him.
27 ... And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.
28 And Saul saw and knew that the LORD [i]was[/i] with David, and [i]that[/i] Michal Saul's daughter loved him.

1 Samuel 19
11 Saul also sent messengers unto David's house, to watch him, and to slay him in the morning: and Michal David's wife told him, saying, If thou save not thy life to night, to morrow thou shalt be slain.
12 So Michal let David down through a window: and he went, and fled, and escaped.
13 And Michal took an image, and laid [i]it[/i] in the bed, and put a pillow of goats' [i]hair[/i] for his bolster, and covered [i]it[/i] with a cloth. {image: Heb. teraphim}
17 And Saul said unto Michal, Why hast thou deceived me so, and sent away mine enemy, that he is escaped?

Isn't it interesting that Saul doesn't think of himself as deceiving David, but is angry that his daughter successfully deceived his men?

It reminds me of Rachel stealing a teraphim from her father, and lying about where it was.... deception again.

Saul had tried to deceive Samuel (that is, had lied to him) into believing he had carried out God's will with Agag.

Also, I believe Michal learned to worship idols in her father's house - which is why she despised David's worship of God. We never see David with an idol but later, we see this with his son: - thanks to SeanHobson for bringing this to my attention -

1 Kings 3
3 And Solomon loved the LORD, walking in the statutes of David his father: [u]only he sacrificed and burnt incense in high places[/u].
4 And the king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there; for that [i]was[/i] the great high place: [u]a thousand burnt offerings did Solomon offer upon that altar[/u].


:-o

Of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh.

P
PaulWest Dec 25, 2007

"And he had a choice and handsome son whose name was Saul. There was not a more handsome person than he among the children of Israel. From his shoulders upward he was taller than any of the people."

Are you prepared to use this scripture as the qualifying factor God used to anoint Saul ruler over Israel? Physical features? I would rather think that the Holy Spirit mentioned Saul's physical traits to contrast the people's qualifications over God's. I contest that Saul had both, and that's why He was chosen by both the people [i]and[/i] God.

Samuel told Saul, "...you have not kept the command the Lord your God gave you. [i]Had you kept it, the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel forever.[/i]"

God was not interested in Saul's physical features, but in his obedience, which was the sole factor, and Saul had to be tested. I believe God had chosen him in the beginning, because he saw potential, he somehow saw humility and godly traits. God even gave him a new heart. But Saul was tested and flunked and thus rejected.

sermonindex Dec 25, 2007


Brother Paul,

' But in the beginning of his reign, God gave Saul a new heart (1 Sam. 9:10).'

Zac Poonen said

... "The Spirit of the Lord will come upon you mightily, you will prophesy, and you will be changed into another man" (10:6). This is indeed a wonderful word that describes what happens to a man when he is filled with the Holy Spirit: [u]He is changed into another man[/u]. This is what all of us need to experience continually.
Did Saul ever [i]really[/i] want to be that '.. other man'?

C
ChrisJD Dec 25, 2007

"..he had a choice and handsome son"


Interesting thing is I think the scripture says that David was fair also.

C
ChrisJD Dec 25, 2007

Would suggest again to look up the verses in 1st and 2nd Samuel that say God was with David.


Could this be the difference?

EDIT: I think the same thing is said of Joseph and Samuel.

B
broclint Dec 25, 2007

Brothers and Sisters I just had to jump into this one because I have spoken on the subject so many times and there is something for both sides of this "discussion" :-) ... There is no doubt that God chose Saul and we cannot know the mind of God in every thing but I believe the scripture gives us a very good indication why the all knowing God chose Saul knowing what he was going to do in advance just as He does with each of us even though we most definitely have the ability to choose...

Consider these scriptures please: 1 Samuel 8:17 - 18 (NASB) 17“He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants. 18“Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.”


1 Samuel 10:19 (NASB) 19“But you have today rejected your God, who delivers you from all your calamities and your distresses; yet you have said, ‘No, but set a king over us!’ Now therefore, present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes and by your clans.”

God had said to Samuel "they have not rejected you but they have rejected me" And I believe Saul is a prototype of the man of sin that is coming, the "anti-David" if you will that comes in sheep's clothing but is THE WOLF in person.

And then look at these the contrast is between the character chosen by men and the character chosen by God (and I know that one scripture speaks of God choosing Saul but the above scriptures tell us why). He had a choice, just as Pharaoh had a choice:
1 Samuel 12:13 - 14 (NASB) 13“Now therefore, here is the king whom you have chosen, whom you have asked for, and behold, the LORD has set a king over you. 14“If you will fear the LORD and serve Him, and listen to His voice and not rebel against the command of the LORD, then both you and also the king who reigns over you will follow the LORD your God.

But like Pharoah and Ahab and many others, God knew that choice that would be made after being confronted with truth and all of it worked together as all things do for the glory of God...
1 Samuel 13:14 (NKJV) 14But now your kingdom shall not continue. The LORD has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the LORD has commanded him to be commander over His people, because you have not kept what the LORD commanded you.”

\t
1 Samuel 16:1 (NKJV) 1Now the LORD said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? Fill your horn with oil, and go; I am sending you to Jesse the Bethlehemite. For I have provided Myself a king among his sons
."

Edit to say that Saul was the "people's choice" and David was God's Choice.

Clint

:-) :-)

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