Is Believing Jesus' Words a Work?

Question:

If these statements are true:

Holy Spirit alone by a Sovereign act of God convicts you of your sin.

Holy Spirit alone reveals to you Jesus as the Lord and how you must surrender your life to Him as a sacrifice because He alone is the Sovereign King of all for eternity.

Does believing or having faith that God did this work in you by the Holy Spirit constitute a work of man? In other words, is the act of believing or having faith, a work?

If it is a work...then is it saving faith?

If it isn't a work then what is the definition of true "belief" or true "faith"?

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same WORKS that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 10:37 If I do not the WORKS of my Father, [b]believe me not[/b]. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, BELIEVE THE WORKS: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the WORKS. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very WORKS' SAKE.

To answer your question directly, yes, even believing is a Work of God produced in us by God -not of man.

1 Thess 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your [b]WORK OF FAITH[/b], and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thess 2:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the [b]WORK OF FAITH[/b] with power:

Again I will state that even faith, is a work of God produced in us by God, according to the work or operation of God done upon us.

We are of course saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH-but also knowing that faith without works is deed, or I could say it this way faith without fruit is dead.

James 2 is great in understanding this: James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified BY WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, AND NOT by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified BY WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I pray this helps, this is just my understanding of it. :0)

So if what you say is true (and I believe it is) can man then be compelled by the Spirit to believe and have faith and yet deny the Spirit to bear fruit in his life?

Well I believe my answer to that would be:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Heb 10: 26 For if WE (the Church) SIN WILLFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The reason why I quote this two verses is because both of these verses describe genuine believers who at some point being to deny the Spirit and the Lordship of Jesus Christ-thus they become Christians who continually walk against the Spirit or in denying of the Spirit. in which it brings Christ words to life:

Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (understanding the "speaketh" is not always verbal, but even in actions)

Or another way I would answer that is: Christ told all those who came to him to ABIDE (remain) in him, and he in them.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye [b]CONTINUE[/b] in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (It is not really per se if you started the race, it is if you finish the race and how you do so)

Jesus once said " he choose" the 12 and one of them "was" a devil-referring to Judas-now Jesus, even being the Spirit compelled/choose Judas to believe for a season, but then to deny Jesus-which I might add again He is the Spirit-thus Judas did not "CONTINUE,ENDURE, or ABIDE" in or Christ to remain fruitful and faithful UNTIL THE END. I say that to say, I don't believe Judas will be the only person like this....just think of the " great FALLING away"

So then if God by the Spirit draws man to himself and convinces man by the Spirit that he must surrender to God...man can reject this compelling by the Spirit of God?

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

The same way that Jesus said " not my will, but thine, be done" is the same way that a person could say the opposite of this:

In other words, I do believe one could not choose to surrender or yield his will to the Father-in Luke 22:42 you see Jesus making a conscience decision to yield to the Father's will, even though Jesus had the Spirit without measure and though it was even the Father the dwelleth in him that did the works-he still had to subject his will to the Father-I do believe there are people who do NOT subject their will to the will of the Father.

Though Jesus is in the Father, and the Father in Jesus, He still had to submit his will-for one not to submit to the Spirit would be to reject the Spirit (rebel against)

hi,faith is hearing that voice inside your knower, believing it unto obedience.by faith noah built... by faith abram left... all examples in the scrpture of faith demonstrate this truth.. faith without corresponding action is not faith at all.. we hear the good news and the voice tells us that God loves me and it is my time to react to His calling in obedience..jimp

Hi DesiJr, in case you haven't, have a look at John 6:29.

DesiJr wrote:
Question:

If these statements are true:

Holy Spirit alone by a Sovereign act of God convicts you of your sin.

Holy Spirit [b]alone[/b] reveals to you Jesus as the Lord and how you must surrender your life to Him as a sacrifice because He alone is the Sovereign King of all for eternity.

Does believing or having faith that God did this work in you by the Holy Spirit constitute a work of man?

In other words, is the act of believing or having faith, a work?

Hi again DesiJr,

"If it is a work...then is it saving faith?"

Maybe another way to look at the question is to ask: whose work is it?

I mentioned before John 6:29. Maybe take a look at Luke 8:10, 10:22, and John 6:45.

Take care for now,

Chris

If it is a work...then is it saving faith?"

Let's admit, faith can be a work of the flesh - nothing more than a human construct. That cannot save us.

I remember reading a portion by Duncan Campbell in which he distinguished between natural faith and supernatural faith. He points out that natural faith cannot save us. Of course, that begs the question, how can we know the difference?

Maybe this is one question that we should let God himself answer. Because if we try, we just end up creating a "sure"-fix formula that sends us spinning again. And then we put our faith in our formula.

“The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.” Rom. 8:16

The challenge: Can we trust God to illuminate by his Spirit, or do we trust in our own human attempts to do so. Now that would also be a work apart from faith.

“..and everything that does not come from faith is sin.” Rom. 14:23

Diane

hi, the difference between faith and presumption is that word from God. if you have a word from God in your heart{knower)and you believe to obedience this only is bible faith.jim p faith without works is dead (not faith at all)

Faith without works is dead?

Then this must also apply; works without faith are dead self works. Which comes first the Chicken or the egg?

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Works or Faith, which is it that does the work of Jesus Christ that is born again in us?
It must be His Faith that gives us His Faith to do the works of Him. Who are we without Christ?
What can we do without Christ? With Christ in us what can we do?

The Answer to all these is: without Him doing the works in us our works are worthless, without Him giving His Faith to our Faith our faith is dead. With Christ, faith is the beginning of good works in Christ Jesus. Let us have this mind which was in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 2:1-13 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

It is God through Jesus Christ in us that is working out His good pleasure. This must be our way of thinking and keep these things in our mind and the things of Christ will become increasingly line upon line and precept upon precept the works we are to be willing to have done through us by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, by whom we have new life and live in and for and through Him.

In Christ: Phillip

hi, i will tear this verse out of my bible 'faith without works is dead' i couldn't find the chicken verse. iam with you that works do not save anyone. obedience is better than sacrifice. Jesus calls you.. you come. thats all... jimp

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [i]it is[/i] the gift of God:"

- Ephesians chapter 2 verse 8

For we are his workmanship...

Christinyou wrote:
Faith without works is dead?

Then this must also apply; works without faith are dead self works. Which comes first the Chicken or the egg?

Dead works would be legalism, works of the law which is opposed to works of faith.

I would say that the Chicken came first, God made animals, not eggs.
He made Adam & Eve fully grown, therefore, HE made the Chicken fully grown, not the egg.

Works or Faith, which is it that does the work of Jesus Christ that is born again in us?

Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us.

The Answer to all these is: without Him doing the works in us our works are worthless,

without Him giving His Faith to our Faith our faith is dead.

faith is the beginning of good works in Christ Jesus.

It is God through Jesus Christ in us that is working out His good pleasure.

...the things of Christ will become increasingly line upon line and precept upon precept...

[b]Isa 28:10-13[/b] [color=990000]For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
[b]:11[/b] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
[b]:12[/b] To whom he said, This is the rest with which you may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
[b]:13[/b] But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; [u][b]that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken[/b][/u].[/color]

Hi Logic,

I wanted to offer some passages in regards to some of the questions you have here. I do not know if Phillip had these things in mind or not. I hope they will be helpfull though.

You asked,

"Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us."

One passage that comes to mind is Galatians 4:19.

But I don't know exactly what Phillip means for sure.

Also,

"Show me where Jesus is doing our works of faith.
He enables us to bear fruit, but HE does not bear the fruit for us."

What I think of is Galatians chapter 5 which describes the fruit of the Spirit. That it is His fruit.

Also,

"Where does Christ "give us HIS faith"?"

Not sure about this either, but I think the scripture is indicating that faith in Christ is the work of God:

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

- John chapter 6 verse 29(KJV)

And also,

"No, it is to for us to will & to do of His good pleasure. In other words, it is God working on our will that we may be desiring to work obediantly out of love for HIM for the sake of His delight."

What came to mind was this from Hebrews 13:21 where it says...

"...working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ"

Take care for now,

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Logic,

"Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us."

One passage that comes to mind is Galatians 4:19.

"Show me where Jesus is doing our works of faith.
He enables us to bear fruit, but HE does not bear the fruit for us."

What I think of is Galatians chapter 5 which describes the fruit of the Spirit. That it is His fruit.

[b]Joh 15:4[/b] [color=990000]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.[/color]
The branch(us) bears the fruit, the vine(Jesus) enables the branch.

"Where does Christ "give us HIS faith"?"

Not sure about this either, but I think the scripture is indicating that faith in Christ is the work of God:
"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

"No, it is to for us to will & to do of His good pleasure. In other words, it is God working on our will that we may be desiring to work obediantly out of love for HIM for the sake of His delight."

What came to mind was this from Hebrews 13:21 where it says...
"...working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ"