Judging unjustly

[b][color=660033]Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. [/color][/b]

- John chapter 8 verses 15-16(KJV)

[b][color=660033]Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.[/color][/b]

- John chapter 7 verse 24(KJV)

[u][b]1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

[b]Immorality Must Be Judged[/b]

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Judge only believers and those who claim to be believers.

[b][color=660000]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. [/color][/b]

- John 5:30(KJV)

Hi Jeannette,

I appreciate what you shared.

Something which stood out to me in the passage from John 5:30 is how the Lord says

[i]...my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will[/i]

As I was thinking about that the other day I happened across this passage from Psalm 25, where it says

"The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way."

- Psalm 25:9(KJV)

Grace to you and peace,

Chris

"And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the [i]holy[/i] place, for a memorial before the LORD continually. And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually."

- Exodus 28:29-30(KJV)

[i]...and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.[/i]

"And Moses spoke unto the LORD, saying, Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation, Which may go out before them, and which may go in before them, and which may lead them out, and which may bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD be not as sheep which have no shepherd. And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom [i]is[/i] the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him; And set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and give him a charge in their sight. And thou shalt put [i]some[/i] of thine honor upon him, that all the congregation of the children of Israel may be obedient. And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask [i]counsel[/i] for him after the judgment of Urim before the LORD: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, [i]both[/i] he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation."

- Numbers 27:15-21(KJV)

[b][color=660000]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.[/color][/b]

- John 10:1-3(KJV)

"Now of the things which we have spoken [i]this is[/i] the sum: We have such a high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man."

- Hebrews 8:1-2(KJV)

[i]Hi everyone. I had posted something a while back and thought that it might be appropriate here also. I share it with you all as one who has failed many times, and desperately needs help from God to walk in this world.[/i]

vig·i·lan·te (v¹j”…-l²n“t¶) n. 1. One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

- from the American Heritage Dictionary

A word of Introduction

Not too long ago I was at the public library when some children next to me became very disruptive. I said something to one of them and they quieted down some. I remember feeling conflicted about the whole thing. This was not the first time over several months that I had said something to children who were being obnoxious around me. Later on that day, when I was home and outside cutting the grass and meditating upon these and other things I had the thought, a question really: is there such a thing as a religious vigilante? After reading something tonight in another thread, I thought that now might be an appropriate time to share with you all some things I noticed in the Word of God respecting this question.

Is there such a thing as a [i] Religious Vigilante[/i]?

My thoughts or observations, come from the story of Jacob and his sons, when his daughter Dinah was taken and violated by Shechem, the son of Hamor, the Hivite. This story is found in the 34th chapter of the book of Genesis.

Verse 6

And Hamor the father of Shechem went out unto Jacob to commune with him.

We read here, that after Shechem had done this thing, he desired to take Dinah unto himself because he loved her. And so he asked his father to get her for him, to be his wife. And Hamor is coming now to meet with Jacob - to [b]commune[/b] with him. And I think that is something to take note of in this story, and as we consider this question of : is there such a thing as a religious vigilante.

Going on here we see that Jacob's sons, having heard of this thing that was done to their sister, they were, the scripture says [i]very wroth[/i]. And so we imagine they might be. You can easily imagine how angry these brothers might have been, to hear that someone had violated their sister. Because this Shechem, an Hivite, had [i]wrought folly in Israel[/i], something which [i]ought not to be done. [/i] So we can see that these men, though they might not have been all that pious themselves, remember what Judah did with Tamar his daughter-in-law, and what all of them did to their younger brother Joseph; no they probably were not so pure, not really all that concerned about the religious virtue of being called by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and their father Jacob, but you can easily imagine how they would have been angry over such a thing.

And here we have Hamor coming out to commune with Jacob, two fathers meeting to discuss this terrible thing that has happened, and perhaps come to some sort of resolution of it, or at least try to make things right about it, and instead of meeting together, just the two of them, it would appear that Hamor was, perhaps, I can not be certain, cut off from meeting with Jacob directly, for in verse 6 it says he came to commune with him, that is Jacob, but in verse 8 we read [i]And Hamor communed with them[/i], as though he was intercepted if you will, by Jacob's sons.

You know, if you are really angry about something, and you want to see justice done, it can cloud your judgment. And even though you know you may not be the best one to deal with the situation, or even that you have the right authority to deal with it, because you are so angry about it, and all you want is to see justice served, you might be overpowered by that and want to take matters into your own hands.

And I think I can see something of that here. Now, in verse 11, we do read that Shechem, the one who had violated Dinah, that he does speak to Jacob in this meeting, and the details of all this are somewhat vague. We don't know for instance, if Jacob's son's had went out and all of a group met Hamor before he could talk directly with Jacob, or perhaps, in the course of the meeting, they were so forceful in asserting themselves in the conversation that Jacob could hardly get a word in, we do not know, but what is clear about this, whatever Jacob may have said or not, is that the [b]will[/b] of these men his sons prevailed. I think that is something also to take note of here, that is, their [b]will[/b] in all this. And I'll say why later.

Now what happens next is not a high spot in the history of the children of Israel. I remember reading this story for the first time and just being struck by the cruelty of it all. It is one of those stories which reinforces that saying you hear used to support the Bible's veracity from time to time, that is, the proposition that the Bible portrays its heroes in a very honest way, warts and all, as they saying goes. And I believe that is true and that it is certainly true here. These men, these [i]Israelites[/i], these chosen men, they go and do something that you would expect the heathen people to do - certainly not men that knew and called upon God, or were called by His name anyway.

But now there's another thing to take note of in this: that those who are only superficially a part of something, but that don't really share the values of what it is they are a part of, they might be willing to cut corners, to break the rules, to do whatever it takes to get their goals accomplished, even if the means do not square with the values they are supposed to uphold. And even in sincere men, anger or lust to see anger fulfilled may cause them to do the same thing.

And so what happens here is that, these son's of Jacob trick Hamor and Shechem into thinking that they are going to join their families together and make one big happy family, so to speak. Oh what an evil it is to deceive, but even worse to deceive under the guise of love! Here they have these men thinking that they are going to live at peace with each other, that all this that happened to Dinah is going to be put behind them and they are going to all live together as one!

And what is worse about all this...are you ready... what is worse about this is that they use the sign and seal of their supposed religious devotion, the covenant of circumcision, to do it. They convince these heathen men to be circumcised, to take upon them that outward sign of their devotion to the God of Abraham, in order that they might execute their revenge upon them. Oh the cruelty of it!

You know, here again, I think we should pause and consider this. Here are men who, in their anger, are willing to use the sacred sign of their devotion and consecration to God, to take revenge. Now that says something doesn't it. It says something about those who are willing to use the things of God, the holy things of God, as a means to their own ends, as a means, in this case, to get evil and cruel revenge. Or even how sincere men may do the same thing, in anger.

And so what happens as a result of all this is a tragedy. After the men of their city were all circumcised, and were there recovering from it, that is, they were probably incapacitated mostly, that is not able to move around much, in such a state as that, we read that Simeon and Levi, the brothers of Dinah, took their swords and came upon these men, and as they were in such a helpless state as they were, they killed them all.

Now that is a sad thing to read. And then they took all their things.

Sad indeed.

Well, we have to get beyond that and what about our initial question? Is there such a thing as a religious vigilante? I think there could be. I think this story shows us that such a thing could be and gives us some warnings and some things to look at as we consider why we do what we do, in the name of God and religion.

Something which stands out perhaps more than anything, is that in all these meetings where we read that such and such [b]communed[/b], we never read that Jacob's sons communed with him. Hamor came out to commune with Jacob and met with Jacob's sons. And then later we read that Hamor and Shechem communed with the men of their city, but why do we not read of Jacob's sons communing with him? Why did they not seek to know the will and mind of their father before they sought to take revenge? Did their rage and their anger blind them to wisdom and what was right?

Jacob says to them as a result of all this

"Ye have troubled me to make me to stink among the inhabitants of the land"

And I think, how might we bring shame and do damage to the name and cause of God in our land, if we go about taking justice into our own hands, without consulting God? Oh, our cause might be just, but is this the Lord's way, and is it His timing?

And then even more troubling than all of that, is what is perhaps the divine commentary on all of this as we have it when Jacob, in his old age, is standing to bless his sons. And when he comes to Simeon and Levi, the two who actually put all of this into action, he says

"Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations. O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honor, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their self-will they digged down a wall. Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel."

- Genesis chapter 49 verses 5-7

Ohh friends, what a terrible, an awful summary of these things. I said before how I would come back to this point I made earlier, how the will of these men prevailed in this. And here it is, here I think we have the whole summation of this question that is before us, of what it might be and mean, to be a religious vigilante:

[i]...for in their anger they slew a man, and in their self-will they digged down a wall. [/i]

Isn't that it then, those two things. If something would characterize taking matters into our own hands, and not seeking to do the will of God, wouldn't it be these two evil twins, [b]self-will[/b] and [b]anger[/b].

interesting thread brothers and sisters. it has been good thinking of these things and what our motive and thought is on why we judge and how we judge.

matthew 7:1-5
" 1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye".

notice that it is with the same judgement and measure that we use that will be measured back to us. so if we judge with holy judgement and love, zealous for His will, it will be measured back to us that way.

people use the first verse "of judge not lest you be judged", but neglect the context of the passage. the passage shows us not to judge [b]unrighteously[/b] by looking at their speck and neglecting our log. but pay attention to the verse 5. "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see [b]clearly[/b] to remove the speck from your brother’s eye". so we are to remove our plank and then remove the speck from their eye. it's not as if we don't remove their speck, it's only that we don't do that until we've removed our plank first.

[b]"clearly"[/b]
there's always that little word there [b]"clearly"[/b]. how can we see [b]clearly[/b] until we've gone to God to show us the specks and planks in our eyes. after hearing God and obeying God in our lives, we are able to see [b]clearly[/b] to help others to remove the speck and planks in their eye.

thanks for the thoughts guys, it will remain in my mind when thinking about judging righteously.
:-)

phil

Hi everyone.

Dear Jeannette and Phil, thank you both. You've given us much to consider.

Something that came to mind just now as I was meditating on these things and something which brother Phil wrote, is how our vision can be incomplete, or partial, even after we've been made to see?

I work with blind people. I shared a while back how I got this job [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16488&forum=44&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]here[/url] and I'm so gratefull to God for His gracious provision and compassion for me.

One of the things I've learned, or become aware of while working there is that there are degrees of blindness or sightedness? We have people there who are completely blind and those who can see fairly well, but with limitations.

There is a whole spectrum there, of blindness.

I think this can be true of spiritual sight also? How that we still see through a glass darkly? We may see some things very clearly and yet be blind to others, even things about ourselves.

A while back the pastor of the congregation I attend was expositing from Mark chapter 8, in particular the passage about the man that was blind in verse 22-25. He was looking at reasons why the Lord would have healed this man the way He did, touching him the second time.

Well, before this, the Lord had miraculously fed the multitudes, not once, but twice, and after being questioned by the Pharisees to perform a sign, and having left them, He warned the disciples about the leaven of the Pharisees and of Herod(perhaps warning them about their corrupting influence?), and they thought that He was talking about bread!

After reminding the disciples of these miracles, the Lord says to them

[b][color=660000] How is it that ye do not understand? [/color][/b]

And then we have this record here, how after this the man was brought to them, and the Lord heals him the way He does, touching him not once, but twice.

In John's record of the Gospel he writes how the Lord said to the people that came looking for Him, after He had fed them,

[b][color=660000]Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. [/color][/b]

And Peter, even after it was revealed to him that the Lord was the Christ, yet see how he responded after the Lord began to tell them what was to happen to Him.

It would seem that in all of these things there was a great problem, for everyone, of seeing things clearly. Of seeing the Lord Jesus, not as we, or they, or any of us would expect to see Him. But as He is.

In His prayer, what is called His High Priestly prayer, the Lord says

[b][color=660000]I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world[/color][/b]

and

[b][color=660000] And I have declared unto them thy name[/color][/b]

In the King James it goes on saying...

"and will declare [i]it[/i]" but the ESV has it this way

"and I will continue to make it known"

And that seems to be the right sense to me also, that the Lord has come and revealed God to us, [i]and continues to do so[/i].

We have so many things, both within and without, that may cloud our vision.

Regardless of Judging unjustly or whatever, I can tell you this below is what scares me the most and is why I am very "SLOW" to judge if ever I do.:-)

matthew 7:1-5
" 1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

Hi everyone,

Jeannette, how are you?

I was looking at the example you mentioned,

"Why is there such a contrast between what Simeon and Levi did and what Phineas did?"

Something which stands out to me is the first verse in the passage you selected for us, where it says...

"Moses said unto the judges of Israel..."

Am thinking here that this maybe reffers to those in Exodus 18:21?

And so here you would have, men in authority, given a charge by Moses. Now, did they do it? I don't know.

What do you think?

Hi Jeannette,

"I suppose, on the part of those putting judgement into effect there is a responsiblility indeed a command to judge, so they weren't doing it of their own accord."

This seems like a significant difference between the two stories.

In the later you have men who are in authority being given a charge by Moses. With Jacob's sons it looks as though they just acted on their own.

This week I was listening to a reading of Paul's letter to Titus and this passage really stood out...

"For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self-willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;"

- Titus 1:7(KJV)

[i]...not self-willed, not soon angry...[/i]

Grace and peace,

Chris

"The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way."

- Psalm 25:9(KJV)

Hi everyone, this morning I listened to part 2 of a message titled 'Clothed with Humility' given by K.P. Yohannan. I really appreciated it and thought it might be appropriate or helpfull for us in this topic.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15264&commentView=itemComments]Clothed in Humility, Part Two by K.P. Yohannan[/url]

As I was listening I thought about where the Lord said

[b][color=660000]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [/color][/b]

The definition of meekness that I heard some time ago and that has stayed with me is this, that it has the idea of 'strength, under control'.

That makes sense to me. And then I think of an ox, being put into a yoke; that his strength, is brought, under control.