Evangelists lament Calvinism, SBC trends

Here is another good article about this topic.

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)--While LifeWay Research found the number of Southern Baptist pastors embracing five-point Calvinism to be relatively small, it is undeniable that the conversations on Calvinism within the Southern Baptist Convention have brought renewed interest to the theological system.

Proponents of Calvinism, or Reformed theology, view it as a healthy return to early Southern Baptist heritage. Others see Calvinism as a negative trend and fear it is threatening to take over the SBC. In its inaugural survey, LifeWay Research sought to document the prevalence -– or lack thereof –- of Calvinism within the SBC.

More Here [url=http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=23993]Article[/url]

I always believed that Baptists were Calvinistic. They believe in Once Saved Always Saved.

No Calvinist would agree with you on this, we believe that those whom God ha elected will persevere in the faith, because of God's working in them to will and do His good pleasure. But a decision, or aisle walking does not mean someone is saved. 8-)

Read Geisler's book Chosen but Free. Actually shows the sides of both HYPER CALVINIST, HYPER ARMINIAM, and the classificatons of moderate's in both views. He explains the only difference between the moderate Calvinist and moderate Arminiate is the belief in OSAS, other than that they are very close. By his definition I probably consider myself a moderate Calvinist, because I disagree with the Hyper Calvanist belief of Election, Gifts of the Spirit have ceased, and that man does not have Free Will. It is actually a very good read, and he shows all the verses that each side uses to defend their position, and gives detailed expalinations from both veiws. Geisler is tremndous in Theology and Apologetics.

Read Geisler's book Chosen but Free

Better yet, read Geisler's book and then "The Potter's Freedom" by James White, and see which one stays truest to Scripture alone, and which one actually takes time to exegete the passages, and show the meanings of words used.

Truly a challenge anyone could take :-D

by sermonindex on 2008/1/14 2:47:28

Evangelists lament Calvinism, SBC trends

JACKSON, Tenn. (BP)--A group of 15 evangelists meeting in Jackson, Tenn., Jan. 7-8 said they have concerns about the growth of Calvinism and the rise of a Willow Creek-style of non-confrontational evangelism within Southern Baptist churches.
A LifeWay Research study released in November reported about 10 percent of Southern Baptist pastors identified themselves as Calvinists. However, 29 percent of recent SBC seminary graduates espoused Calvinist doctrine.

The seeker-friendly model is completely antithetical to reformed theology.

If Total Depravity is realised by the church, practical application would be that a lot of emphasis will be on prayer, because it is acknowledged that only God can convert the soul. In fact, when everyone prays for the salvation of another and that God will soften the heart of the non-believer, he is being calvinistic that very moment even if he does not realise it. because in so doing, he recognises God's sovereignity in salvation and that only God can convert and draw the soul to him. The Calvinistic church understands that their prayers is one of the the means that God is using to bring about the salvation of the lost (the ends) The Arminian believes that man can reject God's will and therefore, prayer becomes useless since God does not infringe on man's will.

Perservance of saints which would mean that those who appear to fall away are obviously not saved in the first place. The church who believes in this fifth point of TULIP would focus less of its resources trying to keep lukewarm members within the church (lest they fall away from an Arminian view), but will focus more on discipling true converts and reaching out to the lost. Leaders are a precious commodity in any organisation. The church included. Yet most of the resources are spent trying to retain false converts.

Secondly, it will also affect the way the church is run. if the church starts with an Arminian mentality whereby the saved can be lost, then the church will attempt to be seeker-friendly as a means to retain these people. A Calvinistic church would not do the same. The Calvinist church practices church discipline because they recognise that if a true Christian is living in sin for a period of time, he will turn to God following discipline. If he is a false convert, he will leave the church and not falsely console himself that he is saved when he isn't. He is not "innoculated to the gospel" message of repentance in the future because he is well aware that he is not saved in the first place. His identify as a false convert is made plain for him to see.

The Arminian seeker-friendly church will not practise church discipline because it might turn the true believer away from God and the believer might lose his salvation. The Calvinist church understand that the elect WILL stay in the church, and that Godly disciple WILL correct and refine the church (not destroy it). Godly discipline edifies the church as well as the individual. The implication is that that the focus of the local congregation is Christ centred; the focus is primary on fellowship of saints and worship of God.

A calvinistic understanding on soteriology would also interpret the parables such that they are recognised as speaking of false converts within the church, of whom the false will be exposed on the day of judgement. As a church, the calvinistic one would be alert towards the wheat among the tares, understanding that there are false converts within its fold. The Arminian church would typically view the parables as refering to two groups of believers who are both saved, but one is carnal and one is spirit-filled; church discipline is not practised. In application, the calvinistic church will not allow those of questionable character to serve in certain ministry because they may well be false converts. The Arminian church would not mind if that keeps them faithfully coming to church.

The Calvinist church's focus will not be on following up worldly people within the church, but will instead focus their efforts on discipling true converts so as to develop leaders who are strong and biblical in their thinking. I'm not saying that reaching out to questionable converts is not needed. I am saying that the focus would be different.

When the church is Calvinistic in thinking, its focus on evangelism will be one that uses the law to demostrate the depravity of man. The sinful man is shown to be depraved and repentance is needed to come to God. The Arminian would usually coax the believer to just believe in Christ, attend church regularly and then grow in faith along the way.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2zvqQ1w-Os]Albert Mohler and RC Sproul on the Seeker-Sensitive Movement[/url]

I think this quote from the article has a lot to say:

"Southern Baptists neglected serious Christian education from the early 1960s, and that's when all the trouble started. From discipleship training we went to the amorphous youth groups, whose only real good was to keep kids happy until they graduated from high school and graduated from church. Now, you have a generation [of college students] who have come along and want something deeper and they have latched onto Calvinism."

As a SBC member myself I've noticed a trend towards Calvanism in my own church. On one hand I understand it intelectually, but on another I dislike that it seems to have quenched some of the fire for Evangelism.

The Lord told His followers to wait in Jerusalem, untill they were endued with power from on high.

Not from books.

Not from theological arguments or doctrinal positions.

But power, from on High.

Holy men of God preached the Gospel with the Holy Spirit sent down from above. And they didn't hide behind a box while they did it.

[b][color=000000] For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [i]unto him[/i]. [/color][/b]

EDIT: Post deleted.

My comments were not appropriate or eddifying.

I appologise if they offended anyone at all.

When I consider the missionary and evangelical zeal of Paul Washer, David Brainerd, William Carey, Spurgeon, Joseph Alleine, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, MacArthur, Hudson Taylor, Jonathan Edwards, and a host of others who held to Calvin's understanding of Paul's teaching of Sovereign Grace, I cannot help but expect that the problem SBC is experiencing is not with "Calvinism" itself but is with those who misunderstand it.

For myself I may say that since becoming a so-called "five pointer" I have far greater zeal for missions and evangelism, and my reliance is more fixed upon God.

JACKSON, Tenn. (BP)--A group of 15 evangelists meeting in Jackson, Tenn., Jan. 7-8 said they have concerns about the growth of Calvinism and the rise of a Willow Creek-style of non-confrontational evangelism within Southern Baptist churches.

This is also the story of the Brethren in Christ church. For the last 20 years Calvinism has been creeping into the church which was once moored in the influences of the Moravian, Anabaptist, and Wesleyan ways. With the growth of this influence, this particular denomination has suffered and has grown more liberal. This denomination is now growing more in likeness to a business enterprise. And after reading up on the emergent church, which began under the influence of Peter Drucker, a business guru of the past, many churches seek to be like Willowcreek and Saddleback.

In Christ
Jeff

theopenlife,

As someone studying missions I do have to admit that there are many people who hold Calvinistic views who are very zealous for missions... but I would say that the vast majority of people who hold to reformed doctrine are trending towards hyper-calvinism.

This study wasn't about the effects of calvinism, but instead about calvinism taken to one of its many conclusions = apathy.

I have strong calvinistic views, just as Paul Washer. But I liked something that Paul Washer once said, he said that in his prayer closet he was a Calvinist, but if he had to pick ten men to start a church with, he would pick the ten most Arminian men he could find.

In the prayer closet I'm reformed, but when I'm talking to someone about Jesus I'm an Arminian. Traditionally the evangelical zeal in the Baptist church has been Arminian, and we're losing that evangelical zeal as many of our young men are shifting towards hyper-calvinism, I think there's a link, I've seen it in my own SBC church.

Young men would rather study doctrine than tell someone the good news... its a scary day.

theopenlife wrote:
When I consider the missionary and evangelical zeal of Paul Washer, David Brainerd, William Carey, Spurgeon, Joseph Alleine, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, MacArthur, Hudson Taylor, Jonathan Edwards, and a host of others who held to Calvin's understanding of Paul's teaching of Sovereign Grace, I cannot help but expect that the problem SBC is experiencing is not with "Calvinism" itself but is with those who misunderstand it.

For myself I may say that since becoming a so-called "five pointer" I have far greater zeal for missions and evangelism, and my reliance is more fixed upon God.

but you have just as nice of a "line-up" on the other side... these are just names to back up our belifs, we could say Wesley,Finney,Tozer,Keith Daniel, Ravenhill for example on the other side....

Both sides have truths.

ignoring them, any of them is not being true to scripture. I Myself dont know, I know Finney was such a man of God people fell on their faces before he even opened his mouth, I love the puritan writings and some of the calvinist old preachers, I love Wesley to. I see truth from all... and to say ex Keith Daniel has wrong doctrine or Tozer or Ravenhill... I dont know what to say to such people, other then i feel sorry for them

Has anyone who holds the view that believing the doctrine of sovereign election leads to apathy in evangelism got a theory on why the greatest missionaries, preachers, evangelists and revivalists of all time held the same doctrinal belief?

Brainerd, Whitfield, Edwards, Spurgeon, Martin Lloyd Jones, Bunyan, Carey, George Mueller, McCheyne, Evan Roberts.

The lack of zeal and commitment to the unsaved lies not in the sovereignty of God but in the weakness of men.

If you want to question anything, question how all the Arminian zeal in the world is unable to account for the fact that, according to Leonard Ravenhill, only 2% of the church is saved, much less the world. The problem is not a lack of zeal but but a lack of knowledge ( ie., doctrine ).

by whyme on 2008/1/15 4:29:53

Has anyone who holds the view that believing the doctrine of sovereign election leads to apathy in evangelism got a theory on why the greatest missionaries, preachers, evangelists and revivalists of all time held the same doctrinal belief?

Brainerd, Whitfield, Edwards, Spurgeon, Martin Lloyd Jones, Bunyan, Carey, George Mueller, McCheyne, Evan Roberts.

The lack of zeal and commitment to the unsaved lies not in the sovereignty of God but in the weakness of men.

If you want to question anything, question how all the Arminian zeal in the world is unable to account for the fact that, according to Leonard Ravenhill, only 2% of the church is saved, much less the world. The problem is not a lack of zeal but but a lack of knowledge ( ie., doctrine ).

Exactly.
While many may see a lack of zeal in pro-activity within ministery as a logical conclusion of belief in predestination, when one actually looks through the testimony of history, the argument becomes nothing more than a rationalistic Strawman without real factual support.

whyme wrote:
Has anyone who holds the view that believing the doctrine of sovereign election leads to apathy in evangelism got a theory on why the greatest missionaries, preachers, evangelists and revivalists of all time held the same doctrinal belief?

Brainerd, Whitfield, Edwards, Spurgeon, Martin Lloyd Jones, Bunyan, Carey, George Mueller, McCheyne, Evan Roberts.

The lack of zeal and commitment to the unsaved lies not in the sovereignty of God but in the weakness of men.

If you want to question anything, question how all the Arminian zeal in the world is unable to account for the fact that, according to Leonard Ravenhill, only 2% of the church is saved, much less the world. The problem is not a lack of zeal but but a lack of knowledge ( ie., doctrine ).

some of the greatest preachers in history did not hold this doctrine. Just to keep the balance of truth here