Soothsayers ~ Present realities

[b]Soothsayer
SOOTH'SAYER,[/b] n. A foreteller; a prognosticator; one who undertakes to foretell future events without inspiration.

End times. NWO. Prophecy. Conspiracy theories.

Much of this is and has been occupying the spaces here of late. The observation and questions that arise are many, but this preoccupation of things speculative, of things future and the stamp of [i]it is so[/i] by inference rather than that of 'perhaps' is troubling.

What [i] is[/i] the fascination? That we have either a 'right' to know these things or that we find ourselves to be of a almost paranoid mind that dishevels us and makes us the prophets of warning that the sky is falling and nobody is aware of it.

I am attempting to get down into the root's of the matter with these observes and questions.

I have to wonder out-loud if these are not positing a distraction from what we might be better off doing, like working on our character and integrity. Internal purity of heart and mind, soul and body. Conformity into and resemblance of likeness of our Lord. This is what predominates even this very site and may I suggest we are losing sight of just that with this level and quantity of distraction. It is not the bath water and the baby, it is not all the rebuttal's and 'don't you think we should be warning' and every other consideration that might come back as response. That is not what I am attempting here. I hesitate to bring an example for the want of yet another exemption or launching off on to more of the same ... Mr. Warren's "PEACE plan" as illustrative. A project doomed to failure! It is so completely absurd that it reeks of the very idea of;

[i]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?[/i] Gal 3:1-3

Peace without a profound change of man's heart? Is he kidding? Never shall the twain met, never think for a moment that even the temporal peace that we might expect and derive from the book of Revelations is anything but a false idea and a quasi- wretched construct, there forever will be war due to the madness in men's hearts. Rubbish. Forget it. This could be problamtic if I am mixing up tribulation and the anti-christ and whatever camp one may ascribe to, pray you get the gist of it regardless.

And if I may further this and expand on it ... Is this not part and parcel of the same thing with our educated guess work, in prophetic matters, conspiracy theories, how we suppose this whole re-ordering of the world's government is either taking shape, has been, might be ... It is innately speculative at best and I am beginning to become rather disturbed that at worse it is taking off the focus on what truly matters and what we ought to be spending our time and efforts on.

We are not man pleaser's by any stretch of the imagination but to wear that as a badge is not the idea and to forgo what ramifications are processed out of what is becoming the equivalent of a Christian Tabloid, fit for the magazine rack at the check out counter where the rest of the world is passing by, those we are supposed to be ... courting to our favor, namely to our Leader, our Lord, to Jesus Himself .. I have to ask, [u]what does this [i]look like[/i]?[/u] Furthermore, do we really even care, one way or the other?

Redundantly, I am hard pressed to find this level, even the interesting underbelly of [i]conspicuous by it's absence[/i] attributes of these very things in the vast majority of those dead and alive that are promoted and presented on this site, in article, in voice ... in deed. Their preoccupation, their mere mentions are more rare than this sudden paradigm shift that is indeed taking place in the world of 'Christendom'. It begs the question for us, those of us drawing back to Old Path's and 'old' ways, why the entanglement in and of this present worlds, this present muddy and confused world of "Christianity" that has more definitions and derivatives, out takes and ... guess work, to be as if indistinguishable from even just a generation ago.

We are very keen to point out the errors of the day and that might put me in a quandary by seemingly speaking out of both sides of my mouth here, but I am indeed accusing us! We are not to be of a separatist mind at the level of putting each other ... of even those unfortunate enough to be ensnared in so much that we might rightly bring to the light, speak out against, to put them at arms length, that would paint us as rightful hypocrites. No. It is not that at all. To this comes that very strong warning that I fear we have shoved aside to titillate and tantalize our feeble minds, this [i]right to knowledge[/i] that we seem to believe we have a special inheritance to.

[i]No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.[/i] 2Ti 2:4

Entangled ... with ... the ... affairs ... of ... this ... life.

That's it. That's the point here. Are we overshooting and over looking this? This is my question as it pertains to all these things. There are a few more verses I would like to present for more consideration, but first the charge of soothsayer ...

There is something that even relates back to the bewitching spoken of in Galatians; [i] having begun in the Spirit [/i] ... and to that I will draw, [i]one who undertakes to foretell future events without inspiration[/i].

The obvious point is without inspiration, without [i]The Spirit[/i]. Now surely we will have the whole of a objective\\subjective realm to deal with as well and may I propose that a great deal of this might be settled far more quickly if we were but better students and believe you me I mean discerner's in Spirit and in truth, true, honest searchers of Gods word and more fully reliant on the Holy Spirit in prayer, in meditating (Read, [i]thinking and contemplating[/i]) upon the scriptures, drawing everything to and from and within them, all brought to bear on the whole counsel of [i]what is written[/i]. We must become better learners, better examiners of our own hearts in light of this book, better students of the heart, this is where our greatest work is, not in speculative matters. How have we over looked so many of these admonishens?

Mar 4:19 And [u]the cares of this world[/u], and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; [u]I am not of this world[/u].

Rom 12:2 And [b]be not[/b] [u]conformed to this world[/u]: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not [u]the wisdom of this world[/u], nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

Php 4:6 Be careful (anxious) [u]for nothing[/u]; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

We know these verses and hopefully their content and context as well. There are many, many more. Men and woman of God. Is this not what we are, what we profess and yet we so often are presenting ... just what? Do we recognize that a martyr is also a witness? By definition. I am not now speaking of persecution, but indeed, what of the persecuted and the fatherless, the widow and orphan, even firstly of our 'kind'? I do intend to push further. Recently a mention of Art Katz came about, whereby he sat down and a woman began weeping before him, without a word spoken ... Likewise, I listen to a tremendous message here that ought to challenge every soul to it's core [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=450]The Cost of Declaring His glory[/url] [i]by Helen Roseveare[/i], a missionary and after her long having it out with God walked back into her situation and those about her remarked ... "You have changed!" "Your face tell us" though she had not either spoken a single word. Are we more concerned or have any inkling to be of this sort of makeup? That the Lord might be [i]witnessed[/i] ... by our sheer presence? Do we believe it is even possible?

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Lastly and regarding so much, a great deal of this business of preoccupation ... I do believe that we may be missing this by a mile in our prospective reasonings of conspiracy and new world order, how we think it is formulating ... Sigh ... before the backlash starts up, I admit I have also followed through on a great deal of the musings and considerations as instanced in the 'emerging situation', please do not misunderstand me, the attempt is not one of wholesale discrediting, though there is much of speculation woven through it and much that is checked out at the outset and brought into suspicion when it is presented as factual evidence when it is only theory or supposition. People of truth! People of facts! People of honesty and integrity! If we are not this and cannot admit our truth from twist or further an agenda of association by proxy, the ends justify the means, we are deceiving not only ourselves but the world that we supposedly would win to Christ.
I just cannot accept any other way than our honesty, the rest of it is not needed nor expedient, no more of this sloppy consequentialism, this humanistic and pseudo - philosophical mumbo jumbo that seems so evident in our fleshly reasonings. Indeed there are troubling things and even 'signs' all around us. But, again just who are these voices? These [i]mere men[/i], how many of them should we be giving any credence to their constructs anyway? If I may be very blunt about it, who the hell are they? Whether they be in the UN or just some start up gang of new age tinkerers, what gives their particular voice any predominance over ... that wisdom which is from above? I feel I am about to fail here if I haven't already ...

The two verse above. Blinded. A truth we know and hopefully have not forgotten of ourselves, where we came from, [i]such were some of you[/i]. Almost a oxymoron, such were all of us. Eph 6:12. I am almost alarmed that we do not truly believe this. Our conduct and preoccupation spells as differently, does it not? Does not our end times ramble and our theoretical, conspiracy laden ...[i]lust[/i], this drive to [i]know[/i] that which is off limit, that is past our grip and our grasp, that which is still out in front of us ... For all that, here is my own suspicion on the whole of it. It is just not going to work out the way we think. I believe we may have forgotten just how crafty and smarter the adversary truly is. It has been rightly said that he knows the book better than we do, to our shame. I would be highly surprised if we got 2% of it right in our quasi-speculative notions, from reading the tea leaves and what is fed to the masses by the media. To think we have some advantage at sorting the truth of men's ways and manners ... think about it, contemplate it, what is the great admonishen to us, to not lean on our own understanding and yet we go and do just that? Maybe what I am trying to say is they are all under suspicion, my God, I am still highly suspicious of my own reasonings even with the advantage of appealing outside of myself if you follow the thought.

What I am trying to express is that I highly doubt this is going to pan out according to what is seen or guessed at or speculated upon. Things will become evident as they become evident, but are we yet truly there? Are we not far in front in the cart with the horse trailing behind us? Will the devil be suddenly more conspicuous then he has after the whole course of history shows him working behind the scenes and if you may, pulling the strings upon men who are in allegiance by hardly any effort of their own, only their blindness and hearts giving place to 'your father the devil' as the Lord so exactingly put it. Pray you might get the expression better than I have given it.

We have better things to do and better work inwardly to be about as our primary business. At least, that is my observation and my own prerogative, that [i]He[/i] might be known and that work is hearty and difficult enough.

The main point being - some of us feel we are living in "those days" and to the degree that those days are spoken of in His Word, to that degree we take heed.

His main warning being - "to watch".

But is 'watching' what is going on or is it ... well, soothsaying?

Was afraid the greater point would and likely will continue to get lost at the expense of a rebuttal.

As much time, attention, interest, space, etc., that the Word gives, we are to.

But it has been far surpassed here of late, what exactly does the scriptures find it's interest, time, space and attention afforded to?

Hi Annie…

I don’t want to cause any animosity between us (or anyone else), so I didn’t really want to reply to this thread at all. I am literally fearful that people might “discern” that there is a “conspiracy” against those who report these conspiracy theories. That is not the case, and I am grateful for many of the things that you and others share in regards to Bible prophecy. It seems that you have spent a great deal of time studying these notions, and your opinions in the matter do weigh on me (believe it or not). But I would like to make a quick comment on the words of Jesus that you mentioned in your reply.

His main warning being - "to watch".

Watch.

Watch?

Is this what is really being done?

It seems like a better set of words to describe what seems to be going on in these manners is HUNT and EXPOSE.

I have visited many of these “discernment” links provided by posters through the years at SermonIndex. While most of them provide wonderful insight and theories in regard to the times in which we live, there are a few websites which seem to derive ultimate conclusions in matters that are not firmly based upon undeniable fact (or worse). Instead of merely raising questions about rumors or supposed facts, some of these websites teach an indisputable conclusion which is published for all to see. This damaging, published determination can serve to obliterate the credibility of certain people, groups or even governments.

If these things are truly exposing a real, diabolic conspiracy to push the world into what we should already be aware will happen, then not much damage is done (even to the Kingdom of Darkness). But if these published statements are not entirely true, then a great evil has been accomplished in the name of “discernment.” True Biblical eschatology is one thing. “Watching out for false doctrines” is another. But spreading “myth” or “assumption” is a completely different matter. It is my belief that certain accusations simply REEK of insinuation, speculation and unsupported gossip.

I have to agree with Mike in this matter, which is much of what I (and others) have been trying to say for some time. We aren’t saying that Eschatology doesn’t have its place (not at all). We are just saying that it might not be a good thing to spread such ideas (as facts) that aren’t completely certain. And the question should be asked whether or not we should not obsess ourselves with the hunt of such things. Are we supposed to watch or hunt? Often, these discussions turn into witch, err, [i]Antichrist[/i] hunts. We become "forensic investigators" who search everything for Satan's fingerprints in a world that is already filled with his fingerprints.

My objection is not with Eschatology that teaches that a one world government will be created (or a New World Order that operates behind the scenes). My issue is with claiming to know “secret goals” of SPECIFIC individuals, organizations, and even governments. What if you are wrong (which I do believe should be the benefit of the doubt it nothing credible is presented to prove otherwise).

Even if there are certain massive physical conspiracies at work, is this the sort of “watching” that Christ asked of us? Remember, the majority of believers around the world do not have access to the internet (which is the source for most of these theories and discussions). Did our Lord’s instructions to “watch” mean to buy a subscription to the Internet or a conspiracy newsletter and hunt for conspiracies that validate our eschatology?

After all is said and done, I have no problem with a discussion of these things (including the accusations against organizations like CFR and the TC). My only qualm is with those who voice their suspicions as FACT. I don’t think that this is the “watch” that Jesus spoke of.

:-(

Haven't read your whole post yet ...

Often the trouble, but I do the same at times.

You think that this is the case in the subject of this thread…

Yes and no. It's the preponderance of the evidence or more to the point, the bulk of it lately that is drawing the considerations.

However, while “End times. NWO. Prophecy. Conspiracy theories” can become an unhealthy obsession, I don’t think it is the case with Annie, (the one you were mainly thinking of?) or some others who post on this forum. It could indeed seem that way, and I did sort-of wonder at first, but no...

No, I didn't have anyone in 'particular' in mind at all, it is very general and encompasses all those things mentioned.

We are at war. That has always been true for the Church, but there are times when it is much more so. Acts, and Church history, speaks of seasons when there was intense persecution and seasons when the churches had rest. There were seasons of feast and seasons of famine. In each “season” God’s people needed to, adjust to the prevailing conditions, be prepared for the next challenge and pay more attention to things that hadn’t been so vital in other seasons.

"We"?
Are we in famine? Besides if you may one of a famine of hearing the word of God [i]preached[/i], our oft complaint out in the main. But a true famine? Again, the tense of this was to draw back to what seems to me to be more important and exacting matters of our present condition, the hard work, the heart work ... prayer. But as much as I hate to say it, I could foresee this coming, a rush to defend or bring the whole of it back around to more ... future considerations.

You are no conspirator, any more than Annie is Jesus, yet there is a kind of parallel. You are just another "Peter" saying "No way! This shall never happen!" You aren't using those words, and the times and situation are different, but that in essence is what you are doing.

No! That it is not the case whatsoever, forgive my attempting to speak in Chris' stead here .. but certainly not. The very trouble in so much of what he might try and bring here for just consideration, challenging the assumptions, testing whether things are indeed [i] factual[/i], it is no different than what I myself often attempt here. Everything has to be clothed in the garb of 'either\\or' despite the attempts otherwise to express just what the matter truly is. That is not what he is saying nor what some of us who are challenging whatever the case may be ... Is it true? Is it factual? Or is it ... something other? Something speculative ... This should not be that difficult to grasp. And it applies to everything, not just these matters. It is a leap of assumption to use Peter's word in this fashion, it is not the essence at all.

Goodness .. if I had known that this would get this far misconstrued would surely have never bothered.

I grabbed soothsaying as a derivative not as wholesale indictment, for crying out loud, the attempt to just draw off was part of the explanation or analogy.

"If it's this, if it's that ...".

These things have been going on for quite some time in all manners of postings, there is no need to try and find "Where's Waldo" in this. Is it not too much to further that perhaps a conspiracy mindedness is even apparent here? That there is something other or else-wise in just a call back to more heart related matters, to those things that are truly promoted here by speaker, by article, what have you. That was the essence.

I'm just in a state of disbelief right now, that's all. I don't take this personally at all.

Differences of opinions are to be expected, but when a word equivalent to demonic-witchcraft is attributed to good Discernment Ministries that are all agreeing against the same movements, that are bringing deception into the Church - that's frightening.

Are you sure Annie? That it is not personal? Honestly, I didn't set out here to do anything than make an observation of what appears to be a preoccupation by the quantity of these type's of posts over the course of the last couple of months and what the impulse is ...

The outstanding post that pastorfrin has been feeding us on prayer. Where are the replies? Are they too long, too difficult, too much head and heart work than to go a speculating instead? That is not a personal dig, please hear what I am saying. There has always been room here and I pray there always will be for all these things, I do not know that this was an attempt to even thwart them all and wish they would come to a griding halt. The whole point has been lost even before it got started it seems.

Maybe it was a very ill-advised attempt to just ask where are heads and hearts are at. Perhaps that would have been better.

Hi Littlegift…

I think that you are very incorrect in your analogy. Annie HAS either made or repeated an accusation (in this case, against the CFR and the TC). She has alleged that she knows the “secret motives of those two organizations (accusing them of holding a goal of creating a one world government).

It is a conspiracy. It is a theory. It is a conspiracy theory. Are you trying to say that this sort of gossip is [i]appropriate[/i] for believers?

These particular conspiracy theories have been refuted by proof over and over again (by believers and unbelievers alike). These organizations have even been forced to defend themselves against these sorts of slanderous accusations. Yet the groups of conspiracy theorists continue to utter their allegations without using caution or an appropriate disclaimer that distinguishes such rhetoric as opinion, assumption or even rumor. Instead, it is presented as fact.

If these are not an unhealthy obsession – then why do they continue to be spread as if they were fact (rather than a persuasion)? The posts stated explicitly (just like the conspiracy websites which they resemble) that these two organizations (as a whole) are purposed in creating a one world government. The evidence that I presented was not meant to take the place of Annie’s allegations, but rather to remind those who make such statements about the possibility of being wrong. Yet I feel that I have been “attacked” in the sense – not for defending these organizations (I am not) – but for raising issue to those who voice such conspiracies as undeniable truth.

Am I wrong?

Sister, we ARE at war with the enemies of God. However, don’t you think that the soldiers of Christ are supposed to act as GOOD soldiers? As with the verse that you mentioned, a good soldier should not “[i] entangleth himself with the affairs of this life[/i]” (II Timothy 2:3). Do you not see how the repetition of these often outrageous conspiracy theories is such an entanglement? Yet the fingers of conspiracy are pointing here, there and just about everywhere. They are making accusations in the public – in full view of the world, unbelievers and believers alike. Do you think that there is much of a chance for those CFR individuals to esteem the words of believers who utter conspiracy theories as INDISPUTABLE FACT (especially in regards to themselves) in which they know are false?

All that I am saying is that if we are going to use these forums to utter such conspiracies, we should not present such information as TRUTH unless it is completely verifiable and indisputable. If we have any doubt (in this case, there needs to be doubt), then we should offer a disclaimer less we endanger our credibility or even our witness in regards to individuals, organizations or even governments.

You know, I am perplexed at how silly this all is. I’ve been praying about this, and I feel that this entire ordeal is rather absurd. Where is the “good” in making slanderous accusations about an organization in which we haven’t either provided indisputable evidence or is the commonly understood truth? I know some individuals within these groups, and they would be extremely hurt if they learned of the accusations made here. These are good men (with at least two believers that I know) who do not want a one-world government in the least.

We should be slow to speak…especially if we are making damaging allegations. Does Annie have a right to utter her claims? Of course she does. Such things could be enlightening if they are used with proper care. In fact, I agree with her far more often than I disagree. But we need to caution against the possibilities of error or bearing false witness against a person or organization. And I don’t think that this post was directed at anyone in particular (i.e., Annie and myself), but at a series of situations that have arisen in various threads here.

There is a guideline against centering on conspiracy theories within the SermonIndex forums. Why? Simply put, it is not the purpose or emphasis of this website. In the past, there have been Bush-bashers, election conspiracies, Iraq-war conspiracies, and even conspiracies uttered in regards to simple things. While the discussion of Biblical Eschatology can have a good effect when used in proper context, are we supposed to be heading down the “conspiracy” road as “forensic investigators” of “the depths of Satan.”

Like I said earlier, there is a place for “watching” and “warning.” But are the accusations that are being uttered as “fact” reflective of either “watching” or “warning?” Perhaps it would have been much better to raise these issues as a possibility open for discussion rather than making such an undeniable accusation about both of these organizations (or some of these other “secret” things). In the “Secret NAFTA Superhighway” thread, our brother who initiated that thread allowed it to be open for discussion. However, flat out accusations like these (in regard to the CFR and TC) were presented as “truth” without even allowing possibility of error (or citing our sources).

Like Annie, I wish that I could pinch myself and wake up from this bad dream. And I apologize if my words were construed in such a way as if I were accusing a brother or sister of having questionable intentions in their posts. But could you imagine how the people in the accused organizations must feel? I watched an interview with Jenna Bush (daughter of the President) the other day. She broke down in tears when she described how difficult it is to see her father maligned in public, or accused of things that just aren’t true. She said that it has caused her to want to NEVER get involved in visible, public service. It made me wonder just how unbelievers view our forums? Do our conversations (and accusations) have a similar effect?

:-(

When the Lord said watch was He reffering to any of these:

CBS, ABC, NBC?

The Internet?

Your favorite discerment ministry?

The latest book that has it all mapped out?

The latest movie that has it all played out?

The moves of the United Nations?

The President? A President? any President?

Are these the things that the Lord Jesus Christ told His follwers to watch?

Well?

Dorcas,

"We are about truth"

And what if the things you and other repeat are lies, half-truths, or mis-information? Is that going to pass by the One Whose eyes are like flames of fire?

Or how about depositing it in the spirits of His lambs, is He going to hold you guiltless?

Sisters,

I do not know what the penchant is for restating things in our own words is and I likely do just as much ... But the whole attempt here is not anything that is being touched on and that can only mean that it was poorly communicated.

I regret the attempt, it is not coming through in any way that I had intended, my failure. Just let it die ...