The Issue Of "Watchdog" Ministries !

sonofthunder Jan 15, 2008

What are watchdog ministries? do they exist ? is it found in the Word? moreover is it biblical - and is it scriptural? hmmm.

Four (4) very valid questions indeed, in light of the fact over the last 2.5 decades of being in Christian circles i have personally met and come across these individuals - who to one varying degree and to another, who firmly believe and are persuaded - that they have this calling and mantle - upon their life. hmmm.

Have you not heard the expression by some who say im called to be a "watchman on the wall" like Ezekiel of old. Im raised up of God - to be this watchman - for him! hmmm.

All good and well - and more annointing to you in the Almighty if you truly have this role, but consider first that Ezekiel was set in that prophet's office and mandated personally by God himself - to be the spokesman and very oracle of God ... to the nation of Israel. hmmm.

In like manner also were men such as Jeremiah, Isaiah and manyother such names found amongst the pages of our - old testament. hmmm.

Moving on now - to cover some other aspects.

WHAT ABOUT WATCHDOGS -- WHO NAME NAMES??

Should we get into this? and who has this authority to be doing such? and can just anybody in the body of Christ for instance just rise up and establish a web-site that seemingly specializes solely in the - naming of names. Of preacher's they personally percieve to be in much error - and name and shame them ? hmmm.

The answer to this would be - by some (yes) and the main passages of scripture appealed to for doing this very thing - are taken from the first and 2nd epistles of Timothy. Where Paul gives out a list of around ten people's names that he feels - the need to caution Timothy about.

That said this was no arbitrary or random thing that the "divinely called" Apostle did ... meaning there was sufficient enough and warranted enough reason (in the Spirit) to ISSUE these cautions. Secondly these letters are addressed to timothy HIMSELF - well primarily they are. Thirdly these ministries were a proximiaty threat ... meaning they men were circulating around close by - and were a "present" and clear danger. That's something else to consider about the name calling thing, before we put pen to paper and write (Iow) these men mention for censor didn't reside in "down under" australia at the time or "up over" (the U.K) FOR THAT MATTER. No they were a "radius" and "close at hand" threat to the New testament Churches - established at that time.

Or To say it another way - their is a well known ministry that hails from new york city way, and the Snr pastor there - upon realizing another well known "platform ministry" was visiting the city where he resided and pastored - whom he considered - to be both injurious and potentially dangerous to the flock - due to certain manifestations of the Spirit he proports and practices - He was thus then named and censored. And so he cautioned the congregation ... best to stay away. ( have nothing to do with that man )

That said ~~ it was due to the fact that this man was coming to his city, and would be with-in close proxiamity to the flock - that God (graciously allows) him to "over-see". That this warning then came forth and was issued. hmmm.

Some would still contend - but yes he also named another well known charismatic ministry that was not visiting the city. yeah. So -so- much then for what your now teaching!! True but that other ministry and his wife - travel frequently to most of the states in America. And further to that that ministry holds to heretical doctrines such as "Jesus died aa a sinner on the cross, the ye are gods doctrine, the hyper faith & wealth, prosperity, and no (suffering tribulation) message" etc etc.

Severe heresies should be stood against - by all. But consider this man's popularity and that he also travels world-wide and has distribution bases set up in many of those countries also. So therefore he is iboth njurious and poses a threat on many levels to the world-wide body of Christ. And dersevedly named - also i might add. Incidently this man also practises the "now" well challenged practise of the "slain-in-the-spirit" experience.

A very very dangerous man (who warrants) cautions

"FINALLY WHAT ABOUT THE PERSONAL WATCHDOG"

Hmmm. This is a slippery ticket item indeed to address - to coin a phase that is. What by today's message then in my understanding of scripture ... is the personal watchdog? where are they? moreover ... who are they?

Go with me to 2nd Timothy and we will pick it up from there " Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him - according to his works ( actions and speech ). Of whom (timothy) be thou ware...why? for hath greatly withstood ( resisted )our words. Paul makes reference here to "our" and not just "his" words. HOWEVER NO DOUBT HE PERSONALLY buffeted paul and resisted him much. Because in the same breath (staying with context) he goes on to say " at my first answer- no one stood with "me" - but all men took off - and forsook me - paul. hmmm.

To my way of thinking, that is if im handling the Word "a-plumb" - and not wrongly dividing-up his word. An issue of contending for the faith had arose - and paul "made a stand" (jude3)as there many jews/ judaizers/ the concision, and many false apostles going about - teaching contrary to the doctrines Peter and Paul had handed down and delivered - to the churches. But this man ( alexander ) had stood in the way and resisted. Resissted their words - their preaching ... and in particular it appears that he resisted and attached himself to ONE paul. THE PERSONAL WATCHDOG syndrome. hmmm.

They often bear grudges, have a huge beef and bee in their bonnet, are anchored in bitterness, and often think it their job and personal calling in life - to watch and preside over you. hmmm.

I thought scripture exhorted us -- to get busy -- "working out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling". And Not to be hounding, subverting, troubling - and in some cases stalking and harassing others. hmmm.

When they launch -- you launch -- at them !!

Wot then -- are you somebodies personal watchdog? thinkest thou - you preside over an individual harassing and troubling both their mind and spirit?

Dear O' dear you need to be careful about this... you are going down a path that could open you up to some serious bondage and issues.

call to remembrance how 40 jews made a pact and an alliance together that they would neither eat nor drink anything ... until paul was killed. Thereby placing themselves under a great curse. How tragic. And all because they so desperately wanted to please other leaders and jews. Our praise is of God and not men. Paul said if i yet please men - then do i cease to be the servant of God. hmmm.

The personal watchdog is taking on a role that is foiled with barbs and razors that one slip-up on your part, might incur such loss of blood from that wound ... that one cannot be heaaled from.

I.e dathan and korah. i.e jannes and jambres

Paul told the thessalonians to rest with us. regarding those that subverted the new converts in Christ. saying with God it is a "just thing" to repay the same retribution -- that they were inflicting upon them.

What-goes-around
comes around.

Judges chapter one reads " adonibezek said, 70 kings having their toes and thumbs have i cut off, gathered their meat under my table: as i have done, so God hath REQUITED me.

THEIR IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DIS-AGREEING AND
being dis-agree(able) ( A VAST DIFFERENCE ) If you hate your brother your a liar, and the truth is not in you. How can you hate your brother whom you do see, and THEN profess in the same breath - to love God - whom you haven't seen. hmmm.

In closing you need to be very careful about "naming names" -- if you go down that track. If you mis-quote people and add words they never said - or put words in there mouth. You are technically bearing false witness. That's why paul said at corinth ... in the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established. And against elder's RECIEVE not an accusation - but in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses.

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ravening wolves. .

Matthew 7: 21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 24: v 4-5
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mark 13: v 21-23
And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Acts 20:28-31
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Romans 16: v 17-18
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

II Corinthians 11:13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Galations 1: 8-10
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2 Peter 2:18
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2 Timothy 3:1-7
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Timothy 4:2-5
"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."

Ezekiel 33:6
But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

~~[b]~~The Importance of Sound Doctrine by A.W. Tozer[/b],

The Best Of A.W. Tozer, pg. 174-176, taken from Man, The Dwelling Place Of God

It would be impossible to overemphasize the importance of sound doctrine in the life of a Christian. Right thinking about all spiritual matters is imperative if we would have right living. As men do not gather grapes of thorns nor figs of thistles, so sound character does not grow out of unsound teaching.

The word doctrine means simply religious beliefs held and taught. It is the sacred task of all Christians, first as believers and then as teachers of religious beliefs, to be certain that these beliefs correspond exactly to truth. A precise agreement between belief and fact constitutes soundness in doctrine. We cannot afford to have less.

The apostles not only taught truth but contended for its purity against any who would corrupt it. The Pauline epistles resist every effort of false teachers to introduce doctrinal vagaries. john's epistles are sharp with condemnation of those teachers who harassed the young church by denying the incarnation and throwing doubts upon the doctrine of the Trinity; and Jude in his brief but powerful epistle rises to heights of burning eloquence as he pours scorn upon evil teachers who would mislead the saints.

Each generation of Christians must look to its beliefs. While truth itself is unchanging, the minds of men are porous vessels out of which truth can leak and into which error may seep to dilute the truth they contain. The human heart is heretical by nature and runs to error as naturally as a garden to weeds. All a man, a church or a denomination needs to guarantee deterioration of doctrine is to take everything for granted and do nothing. The unattended garden will soon be overrun with weeds; the heart that fails to cultivate truth and root out error will shortly be a theological wilderness; the church or denomination that grows careless on the highway of truth will before long find itself astray, bogged down in some mud flat from which there is no escape.

In every field of human thought and activity accuracy is considered a virtue. To err ever so slightly is to invite serious loss, if not death itself. Only in religious thought is faithfulness to truth looked upon as a fault. When men deal with things earthly and temporal they demand truth; when they come to the consideration of things heavenly and eternal they hedge and hesitate as if truth either could not be discovered or didn't matter anyway.

Montaigne said that a liar is one who is brave toward God and a coward toward men; for a liar faces God and shrinks from men. Is this not simply a proof of unbelief? Is it not to say that the liar believes in men but is not convinced of the existence of God, and is willing to risk the displeasure of a God who may not exist rather than that of man who obviously does?

I think also that deep, basic unbelief is back of human carelessness in religion. The scientist, the physician, the navigator deals with matters he knows are real; and because these things are real the world demands that both teacher and practitioner be skilled in the knowledge of them. The teacher of spiritual things only is required to be unsure in his beliefs, ambiguous in his remarks and tolerant of every religious opinion expressed by anyone, even by the man least qualified to hold an opinion.
Haziness of doctrine has always been the mark of the liberal. When the Holy Scriptures are rejected as the final authority on religious belief something must be found to take their place. Historically that something has been either reason or sentiment: if sentiment, it has been humanism. Sometimes there has been an admixture of the two, as may be seen in liberal churches today. These will not quite give up the Bible, neither will they quite believe it; the result is an unclear body of beliefs more like a fog than a mountain, where anything may be true but nothing may be trusted as being certainly true.

We have gotten accustomed to the blurred puffs of gray fog that pass for doctrine in modernistic churches and expect nothing better, but it is a cause for real alarm that the fog has begun of late to creep into many evangelical churches. From some previously unimpeachable sources are now coming vague statements consisting of a milky admixture of Scripture, science and human sentiment that is true to none of its ingredients because each one works to cancel the others out.

Certain of our evangelical brethren appear to be laboring under the impression that they are advanced thinkers because they are rethinking evolution and re-evaluating various Bible doctrines or even divine inspiration itself; but so far are they from being advanced thinkers that they are merely timid followers of modemism-fifty years behind the parade.

Little by little evangelical Christians these days are being brainwashed. One evidence is that increasing numbers of them are becoming ashamed to be found unequivocally on the side of truth. They say they believe but their beliefs have been so diluted as to be impossible of clear definition.

Moral power has always accompanied definitive beliefs. Great saints have always been dogmatic. We need right now a return to a gentle dogmatism that smiles while it stands stubborn and firm on the Word of God that liveth and abideth forever.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

2 Timothy 3:1-7
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

MrBillPro Jan 15, 2008

I think that self-appointed "watch-dogs" like Wall Watchers or any other group can prove to be just as dangerous as the ministries they purport to hold accountable. The power to pronounce judgment can become more addictive and can produce controlling behavior with greater negative consequences than misuses of money! As a successful business owner of 34 years, I have seen danger in individuals wielding their personal opinions and judgments often motivated by pride to create far more serious issues than perceived financial in discrepancies of others. If we live by the sword then we die by the sword.

Not that there isn't a place for accountability and open communication to donors, and should be, but when any individual determines themselves to be the God-appointed judge, then they run the same risk if not greater of becoming "The King Who didn't Wear Any Clothes." To allow doctrinal issues into their ministry accessments signals that Wall Watchers is already in danger of error. Self-appointed scrutiny of others rarely stops with one area, but quickly spreads like a cancer. Even if Wall Watchers has a great understanding in the financial arena, are they theologians now as well? Who holds Wall Watchers accountable? If God doesn't want to separate the tares from the wheat until the judgment so that no wheat is lost in the transaction, do we not run a serious risk of damaging the church and its followers, and the world's view, with our own harsh judgments? In finality, every man and woman will give the greatest accountability on that judgment day. Until then, we should all operate our personal lives and ministries with "The Watcher" in mind.

What's the answer? I'm not sure. But I would encourage any who feel they have been appointed as a watch-dog or critical eye of ministries to also consider all of the difficulties in running a ministry, oversight of compliance with tax codes, regulatory bodies, employee issues, and tireless hours of work, in addition to the hardships and criticisms that ministry will produce, and be careful not to be guilty of "hindering" ministry in an effort to curtail abuses in ministry. Perhaps if a watch dog has never successfully operated a large ministry, they are not the person with the best perspective to "oversee" others' ministry. I have worked in both secular and ministry arenas, and certainly ministry in my opinion, requires the greater sacrifice.

I have personally yet to meet a minister who does it for money, although I'm sure they exist, but not nearly as much as some would have you believe. I'm also sure there are easier ways to make money than ministry. Sculpturally, we are told the workman is worthy of his hire and the minister of the Word is worthy of double honor (I Timothy 5:17). If a CEO built a company the size of Joyce Meyer's, even as a motivational speaker, they would receive greater compensation, without the Wall Watcher's or others' scrutiny. How sad, if we lost such leaders in the Body of Christ because we drove them away from the church with our judgments. The world applaud's such success in the non-Christian. As the church, we are "suspicious" of success and assume they must have done something wrong, since after all following God's ways certainly couldn't make someone successful (as if God has no clue about success and His Word is a book about failure)? Our pitch should be, "Come follow God and you too can be a failure like us!" Where's the watch-dog who seeks out failures in the church? We would never do that! But we are quick to go after success with vehement inidignation, as if to say, "Success and money are evil. Let us show you how to avoid both." My mom called it "biting your nose off to spite your face."

People tend to focus on finding fault with your success than praise of the many years of sacrifice of both time and money it took to reach such a level of impact and notoriety as that of Joyce Meyer. Criticism is part of the territory; it was for Jesus' ministry as well. Those who zealously found fault with his doctrine and financial holdings may have thought they were in the right. Perceptions can be so wrong! Opinions are one thing; judgment and publicly denouncing ministries is another! Accurate judgment requires great humility and a flawless person. I'm not sure any of us can play that role! :-)

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

Now these verses are down-right scarey.

2Th 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; ~~[b]~~because ~~[u]~~they received not the love/agape of the truth[/u], that they might be saved. ~~[u]~~And for this cause[/u] ~~[i]~~God shall send them strong delusion[/i], that they should believe the lie[/b]: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

"The lie" are in the the preceding verses - 2 Thess 2:1-9

2Tim 4:1-4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine, ~~[u]~~for the time will come when they will not ~~[b]~~endure/bear/forbear/suffer/hold onself up with [/b] sound doctrine[/u]; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

:-o

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

There has to be balance.

Krispy

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

Hia Krispy.

Yes, there certainly does have to be a balance.

Out of my 16 hour days, I spend about 1 hr on research. I already basically know where all the "religious" links are, so I may check one to three a day.

I just spent less than 15 minutes checking back on a site I haven't been to in almost two weeks.

It was this one -
http://www.faithhousemanhattan.org/faith_house/endorsements.html

Now, I'll go read the link that hmmhmm put up by T.A. Sparks. (the search for Sparks in google led me to SI almost 3 yr.s ago). And I met you on a discernment type thread. :-) Bless GOD!

I'm a former hippie bro. Ha! Since I was a child, I've only sought "peace & love" because I never saw it in any of the 5 homes I grew up in.

I know, if it weren't for the apologetic type people that the Lord had introduced me to when I first got saved - I'd be the first on line at places similar to the link above.

I Prefer to call Discernment Ministries, "Apologetic" Ministries btw.

The only problem is - in taking the stand for apologetics - I've found that in Christianity - that is where you're met with the least amount of peace and love from your Brethren, if you come against heresy or heresy promoters.

You can see which are endorsing this new "place" in that link - and as you know by now - that whole thread where that link was initially posted - is leading to this merge.

That is the end result of all you and I have seen of what was counterfeit in Christianity all of these years... a global 'religion'.
That is the direction 'all' heretical groups have gone or are heading to.

If I, just for one, only spend one hour out of 16 per day, to just know about the latest group or teacher or 'prophet' that is leading folks into this apostasy, just so that if someone new to Christ (as I was) needs to be detered, then I don't think I'm sacrificing too much for that cause. Some days are even worth 4 hours or more, if it will help one individual from falling into deep deception or the strong delusion.

"Love & Peace brothers."
Annie

sermonindex Jan 18, 2008

MrBillPro said:
I think that self-appointed "watch-dogs" like Wall Watchers or any other group can prove to be just as dangerous as the ministries they purport to hold accountable.
...judgment requires great humility and a flawless person. I'm not sure any of us can play that role!

Hi Brother Bill

Ther is some truth in what you say, and to be constantly be on a witch-hunt for heretics is wrong, and spiritually unhealthy.

~~[i]~~~~[b]~~But can you be sure of being able to tell the difference between "Self-appointed" and "sent by God"?[/b][/i]

Instead of condemning those who do, (or at least are suspected of doing), evil in the church (as in Ezekiel 34) you seem to be condemning those who expose and speak out against them. Is there any basic difference between you and the latter - except that you condemn different things?

OT prophets who cried out against evil were accused of making false accusations, and/or stirring up trouble.
Paul "named and shamed" certain false teachers who were doing great damage to the Church. Was he wrong to do so? Many of his enemies would have said he was...

I don't think judgement necessarily needs "great humility and a flawless person", otherwise none of us would ever dare to say anything or anyone is wrong, in case we fell short! Humility yes, for one's own protection, (as in Gal 6, quoted below), but "flawless"???

The Church is ~~[i]~~supposed[/i] to judge those who commit gross sin or bring in false teaching! It is a difficult and costly task, but it has to be done - in humility and care of one's own walk with the Lord.

Galatians 6:1:
[color=990000]1 ¶ Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one ~~[i]~~in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.[/i][/color]

In 1Corinthians 5 (below) Paul gives specific instructions on how to deal with someone caught in gross sin. The same principle would surely apply to dangerous false teachings, (not mere disagreements over lesser points of doctrine, but teaching calculated to lead God's people far astray).

If the Church won't (in the Spirit of humility, guided by Him) deal with those in her midst who bring His Name into disrepute through idolatry, immorality, heresy and love of money, who will?

I'm not saying all those individual leaders who have been accused are guilty, although (at least re false teaching) there seems little doubt in many cases. Rather, I'm saying that, in the same way that there is a duty not to condemn unjustly without being sure of our facts, so there is a ~~[i]~~duty[/i] to speak against those ministries and leaders who are proved to be far astray, in whatever area, bringing confusion to the Church and shame to the name of Christ.

~~[i]~~~~[b]~~Do we have so little care for the flock as to allow the wolves to ravage them at will?[/b][/i]

1Cor 5:
[color=990000] 1 ¶ It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 ¶ Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. [/color]

Pretty harsh treatment!

in Him

Jeannette

sermonindex Jan 18, 2008

MrBillPro said:
...What's the answer? I'm not sure. But I would encourage any who feel they have been appointed as a watch-dog or critical eye of ministries to also consider all of the difficulties in running a ministry, oversight of compliance with tax codes, regulatory bodies, employee issues, and tireless hours of work, in addition to the hardships and criticisms that ministry will produce, and be careful not to be guilty of "hindering" ministry in an effort to curtail abuses in ministry. Perhaps if a watch dog has never successfully operated a large ministry, they are not the person with the best perspective to "oversee" others' ministry. I have worked in both secular and ministry arenas, and certainly ministry in my opinion, requires the greater sacrifice.
I have personally yet to meet a minister who does it for money, although I'm sure they exist, but not nearly as much as some would have you believe. I'm also sure there are easier ways to make money than ministry. Sculpturally, we are told the workman is worthy of his hire and the minister of the Word is worthy of double honor (I Timothy 5:17). If a CEO built a company the size of Joyce Meyer's, even as a motivational speaker, they would receive greater compensation, without the Wall Watcher's or others' scrutiny. How sad, if we lost such leaders in the Body of Christ because we drove them away from the church with our judgments.
...People tend to focus on finding fault with your success than praise of the many years of sacrifice of both time and money it took to reach such a level of impact and notoriety as that of Joyce Meyer.

Hi again

Realised that you are speaking specifically here of some organsition I know nothing about, (haven't looked into that aspect) called "Wall Watchers", who deal mostly with financial irregularities of ministries... Is that right?

You may be correct in your criticism of this organisation, I don't know.

What I do know is that "love of money is the root of all evil".

Certainly "the workman is worthy of his hire", as you say. I wouldn't personally criticise anyone for that ~~[i]~~alone[/i]. Different cultures have different standards of living that they find acceptable, or even necessary, to a person's ministry. Good standards of transport for example, and a comfortable bed each night, would help a travelling speaker cope with the stress of his life. A good sound system means that even quiet speakers can preach - instead of limiting the ministry to preachers who can bellow like bulls!

And who in our culture would have any respect for a speaker in rags? Even in Africa, where I worked for a while, folk wear their very best clothes to church, out of respect for the Lord, not to show off.

But, all too often, it does seem that successful preachers get drawn astray due to love of power, influence and financial gain. And when that happens, they usually go astray in other matters also. A christian leader faced with temptation to be greedy, or immoral, or avaricious will find a doctrinal way to justify his greed or lust or love of money. In order to salve his own conscience... And one with a lust for power, faced with decreasing crowds can fall into the deadly trap of opening himself (often without knowing it) to occult power instead of to the Holy Spirit. I've seen that for myself in certain speakers - horrible.

And the tragic thing is that often God's people "love to have it so", or can't even discern the difference!

Probably the best rule of thumb is to pray for these leaders at least 3 x as much as condemning them! :-)

Yet the flock has to be protected too, as far as possible.

It is for these, especially those who are also pastors themselves, that my personal burden is...

in Him

Jeannette

ccchhhrrriiisss Jan 18, 2008

Hi Krispy…

I suppose that there is a need, perhaps not for balance, but for truth. You see, the idea of “balance” seems to indicate that it is permissible for a believer to levy an accusation against someone (or a group of someones) without worrying much about the consequences. “Balance” also implies that two sides of a story are presented. Truth, however, simply looks ~~[i]~~through[/i] the accused individual or group and looks at the factual heart of the issue. For instance, I feel that it is wrong to accuse Benny Hinn of being a covetous man. I certainly don’t agree with much of his teachings, but I don’t know if those teachings are based upon his own real convictions about his beliefs (as if it is an obligation to name/claim the things of this world), or if the root of his teaching is his lust for the things of this world. However, you can certainly raise issue about his teachings – which seem to indict him on grounds of encouraging others to break the 10th Commandment. Then, a person should provide credible evidence (not rumor, gossip or suspicion) that demonstrates this issue.

The questions that need to be posed to “watchdog” groups are:

1.\t Is this information that you present undeniably “true?”
2.\tIf it is merely an allegation, have you identified it accordingly?
3.\tHave you properly separated animosity from the accused to the accusation?
4.\tWhat is the outcome of revealing this information in the public? Are your motives pure?
5.\tWhat if your allegation is incorrect? Is any remedy offered?

I have a friend (who happens to be a former professor) who operates a “watchdog” ministry. He is a journalism professor (now in California) who has several books in which he exposes false teaching. His website, videos and books take a candid look at the claims of several ministries. He has been involved in several lawsuits in which he was sued by large ministries, but he has emerged victorious in every one.

This professor was the advisor for both the Chi Alpha Christian Fellowship student organization and the school’s newspaper. He used to explain to both groups the importance of “getting it right before getting it published.” His key words were “~~[i]~~just the facts, facts, facts[/i].” If the facts are correct, then you should present them from a truthful and graceful perspective. It is okay to publish allegations only as long as that information is distinguished as such (an allegation) and by providing the credible source from whence that allegation is gathered.

Many individuals who feel “called” to a “watchdog” ministry seem to go ballistic over anyone who questions their accusations or the evidence upon which their accusations are based. This should not be seen as a personal attack or an attack on a “watchdog’s” credibility. Rather, it is a simple check on truth. If the information that a person provides within their accusation is undeniably true, then why worry? If the evidence is brought that presents the “heresy” is irrefutable, then it should be esteemed as such (but always remembering that “there is another side to every story told”). If it isn’t substantiated by incontestable facts, then it should not be regarded as anything more than what it is – accusation, insinuation, speculation, or rumor.

I know a minister in Cuauhtémoc, Mexico who told me that he was forced (along with the elders) to confront a gossip in his congregation. This woman had a habit of spreading everything she “found out” about various members of the congregation, members of the community, and even people in government. She dissected the messages of each speaker and Sunday school teacher, identifying the sinister motives for their messages. This went on for several years while the congregation was extremely patient with this woman. When she was finally confronted, the woman defended herself by claiming that she was not “gossiping,” but “exposing evil.” She actually thought that she was doing God a service by her “work for the Lord.” Upon pressing this woman for the sources of her many stories, she could seldom provide anything. She claimed that her true source was the Lord and her many years spent knowing the people in her congregation and community, as well as her “inside information” about the government. In other words, very little could be offered to substantiate her claims. The pastor and elders warned her that she needed to “tame her tongue” – and to refrain from feeling a need to “talk too much.”

There is a definite need for “watchmen on the wall.” There is quite a bit of false teaching that is carried over the airwaves and amongst congregations each and every week. This is even more prominent in “free speech” societies. But I suspect that many of these supposed “watchdog” ministries focus far too much on motives and insinuations rather than the facts. In the Old Testament, a watchmen didn’t need to digress about which army was invading the city. He didn’t need to discuss the implications of the invasion. He didn’t even need to question the rationale or raison d'être behind the invasion (conquest, judgment, etc…). He simply needed to sound the alarm. He should state the facts and leave it at that.

There is a need for exposing evil in the Church – but that exposure needs to be clear, inarguable and above reproach. In other words, our “watchmen” (or “watchdogs”) need to make extremely certain that their facts are correct before they sound out the cry. Otherwise, the people will view them as either ~~[i]~~the boy who cried wolf[/i], or worse, a ~~[i]~~talebearer[/i]. Besides, in a sense, we are all called to “watch.” Jesus instructed us to watch – for his coming. He gave us certain clues about the events that will transpire before His coming. Often, however, we turn our eyes onto our suspicions about the earthly fulfillment of those things rather than the Lord Himself (and His Word). Because of the nature of his duty, a watchman needs to live his life above reproach. As long as the watchman can correctly identify the facts of the situation (without adding 95% digression and/or speculation), then they are well-suited for their role. But when his “alarm” seems to simply mingle speculation, insinuation or rumor with a watchman’s own particular beliefs, then the alarm sounds increasingly suspect.

There are some good watchdog ministries out there. There is even some good information available at ministries that I am not so keen on. I suppose that the key is to remain “slow to speak” – even if it means placing our hand over our mouths at times. This sort of patience is difficult to do at times, particularly if we feel that we sense a cause for sounding an alarm. But we need to make certain that our alarm is based upon a real need to sound it, rather than as a means to sound off with what we “know” (or “think” we know).

Even if it doesn't seem like it, I always listen to the "watchdogs." Then, I check the validity of the information that they provide. I cross reference this with what I know of the Word of God and with what I know to be true.

:-)

sermonindex Jan 18, 2008

Would highly recommend these two seperate pages, if anyone is interested in Apologetics at all, by Anton Bosch.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18432&forum=45&7

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=20920&forum=36&start=30&viewmode=flat&order=0

MrBillPro Jan 18, 2008

Bottom line is for "any" organization to stay in business rather it's big business small business or a free service they have to provide "results" related to the business. I personally feel that if these results can't be found, that's it's human nature to look under every rock and even if nothing is found under the rocks they will plant something even if it's only a mustard seed of evidence, and the mustard seed I speak of is one that even creates suspicion until more substantial seeds can be found in the future, Trust me I have seen this done many times in all aspects of businesses and ones especially related to watch groups. This is why I said the watch groups need someone watching them and this is why. As I said the power to pronounce judgment can become more addictive and can produce controlling behavior with greater negative consequences than misuses of money or someone claiming to keep scripture in check, and by the way how does "anyone" keep scripture in check when even God himself said no ones know the scriptures fully, It is true that no man will, or can, understand God in His entirety (Job 11:7), for then he would be God,it must be said that no man (nor angel) knows anything in its entirety.

sermonindex Jan 18, 2008

That is the point here. Not "who we know" but WHO we know, "in Spirit and in Truth".

If we say - we can't know the Truth - we make GOD to be a liar.

If I were to use the "who I know" way of posting - I would say, I know that MOST Christians don't Study His Word as they should and use the "we can't know it all" excuse - that is not found in His Words - and as a cover for the fact that we've wasted our time with "other things" besides, "seeking out His Truth" - which is synonymous with "seeking Him" WHO IS The Truth. GOD forgive us.

A partial list for us on these things ---

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Joh 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Act 26:25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but I speak forth the words of truth and soberness.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth

2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

2Co 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left

2Co 7:14 For if I have boasted any thing to him of you, I am not ashamed; but as we spake all things to you in truth, even so our boasting, which I made before Titus, is found a truth.

2Co 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

Jas 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

2Pe 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Jn 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

2Jn 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth

2Jn 1:2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us forever.

2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

2Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.

3Jn 1:3 For I rejoiced greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth.

3Jn 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

3Jn 1:8 We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellow helpers to the truth.

Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.