Out of order fellowship

On Monday's, a group of believers hold house church fellowship in my home. This fellowship is mostly made up of young married couples, a few more mature couples and a few singles. Our fellowship consists of dinner, worship, teaching, discusion and praying. I thank the Lord for the good works that He is allowing through the use of my home. A very dear couple who are great friends share this fellowship with us and have been instrumental in helping form this fellowship.

As of lately, I was asked by the overall leadership from our place of worship to attend leadership meetings which consists of male leadership in the church. Here is where the issue lies.

Some of the females in this group are very adamant that men and women are of equal standing when it comes to church eldership and are not pleased that women are not able to attend these meetings. They feel that these men are "trying to put women in their place", and feel that this is unbiblical. Some went even as far as to quote scripture in the bible that they beleive was interpreted wrongly from the Greek and have reinterpreted these verses (I appologize, but I do not have them on hand) through reading outside sources that have a heavy slant towards the feminist side of the debate. I have opposed this and have even stood alone in this group (my wife is in agreement with what the Bible says in this matter) defending the Word on this subject. I have rebuked topics that come into play stating the the Bible is not entirely accurate and womens roles have been interpreted wrongly.

The group is strong, but I feel that the enemy is attacking it and trying to create disorder among the fellowship. Some have hinted about splitting off from the main body that meets at our place of worship because of this, but decided against it at this time. Some think that I am in the wrong in the stance that I take, unwavering on it.

I have been praying about this situation and the Lord has been placing on me the need to read and study his Word in order to combat this attack on Godly order in the church and the home. For the most part, my house stands alone on this.

At this time, only slight differences have popped up, but I think that this may be the beginning of people making a choice between the wide and narrow path and raising up for them teachers that will itch their ears. I feel a duty to combat this in prayer and fasting, but I feel totally inadequate for this battle. These Christians are strong in the Word and truly believe what they believe, which makes it even harder to teach truth on this matter. I am not ashamed of the Word and will defend it when I feel that it comes under attack. My house will not be splitting or compromising the Word for any person.

As a teacher, I will be held to a higher standard on the day of the Lord, and I want nothing more then to be a good and faithful servant to our Lord. But how do you teach what the Word says if they are not ready to hear it? I have no problem talking to non-believers about the Word, or to believers whose hearts are moldable, but to be frank, believers who are set in their ways and do not wish to even hear a different side I am not prepared for. It would be easy to move on, but I believe that this is where the Lord wants me, and I need to obey what he wants of me. This may seem insignificant, but when we start to question the validity of scripture, souls can be lost over this.

Has anyone run into this kind of conflict before AND wishes to share? I can always use more wisdom and will happily accept any advise given.

Thanks :-)

You know Miccah, you said it yourself, believers who are set in their ways and do not wish to even hear a different side.

If they have to revert back to Greek in order to change the word of God so they can get their own way, then they are little more than rebels, and self decieved, and have a secular rather than Biblical worldview.

Here is what scripture says.

Genesis 3v16 ...'your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you.

No doubt, had the scripture said she shall rule over him, there would be no searching the Greek to find out if they could juggle the scripture in their favour.

Ephesians 5v22, 'Wives submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

No doubt, they hate that scripture, but it is still what God has said.

Verses 23 and 24 of Ephesians 5 says, 'For the husband is the head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church, and He is the Saviour of the body,
Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

There are other scriptures I could quote, but I don't want to bore you.

Sometimes, as I have experienced, it is better that some people leave the church than that they should stay.

If all they are doing is sowing discord among the brethren, Prov 6v19, and they are causing division, Romans 16v17, then maybe it is better that they leave.

If they go to another church and ask why they left, they will either lie, or if they tell the truth, it will sound quite bad and be against them, not in favour of them.

Unless of course, the new church agrees with them.

That's it.

God bless.

As of lately, I was asked by the overall leadership from our place of worship to attend leadership meetings which consists of male leadership in the church. Here is where the issue lies.

As a woman, I don't understand this. I would be gladly cheering my husband on and the first to lift his hands if he were stepping up into his God given place of authority. In the area I am from it is a rare thing to find a man willing to lead. There is a majority of women in leadership in my fellowship, myself included. But where are the men? I have been praying for a long time for God to raise up men to lead in my community, fellowship and home. He is answering. They are trickling in now and I am more than willing to step down as men step up. I praise God for Godly men who are not passive and do not relegate the role to their wife.

Are the group of men referenced in the quote above not in agreement with you either? Why can't each of these men deal with their own wives? It seems that would be the wisest thing. If they are seeking God and loving their wives as Christ loved the church I can't imagine their wives not submitting to their leadership.
Hope

HopeinChrist wrote:

As of lately, I was asked by the overall leadership from our place of worship to attend leadership meetings which consists of male leadership in the church. Here is where the issue lies.

As a woman, I don't understand this. I would be gladly cheering my husband on and the first to lift his hands if he were stepping up into his God given place of authority. In the area I am from it is a rare thing to find a man willing to lead. There is a majority of women in leadership in my fellowship, myself included. But where are the men? I have been praying for a long time for God to raise up men to lead in my community, fellowship and home. He is answering. They are trickling in now and I am more than willing to step down as men step up. I praise God for Godly men who are not passive and do not relegate the role to their wife.

Are the group of men referenced in the quote above not in agreement with you either? Why can't each of these men deal with their own wives? It seems that would be the wisest thing. If they are seeking God and loving their wives as Christ loved the church I can't imagine their wives not submitting to their leadership.
Hope

No, the group of men that asked me to attend the leadership meetings are the leaders of each seperate house church.

Just to clarify a little. The way that the house churches are set up in our place of worship, that is where all the house churches come together on Sundays to praise the Lord as one body. You can refer to this is the overall "church" of the house churches.

The great thing about the men in leadership is that for the most part all of their families are in order. They are true leaders in the church.

You bring up a great point about men not wanting to stand up and be the leaders in the church. This is a different issue, but very on par with why I believe some women feel the way that some of the women in our group feels like.

HE_Reigns wrote:
Brother Miccah, I didn't want to edit my first post, but I meant to say - reading on to the next chpt as well, shows that this sudden (within just the last 30 yr.s or so) of women in the church, wanting to wear the pants, 'is' indeed a last days prophecy.

Glad more O.T. verses were added from Genesis.

Thank you for the scripture. I will have to read and meditate on that tonight.

Thank you for posting these scritures enid. It is never boring reading or hearing the word of the Lord, so feel free to keep going :-)

Sometimes, as I have experienced, it is better that some people leave the church than that they should stay.

Yes, it is better sometimes that people leave rather then stay. I would not want someone to stay if they did not want to be here, nor would I want to force someone to stay through strong arming.

I am not worried about them leaving the church. The church does not base our value on numbers. If they decide to leave because of what I am saying, then I stand before the Lord knowing that I stayed true to His word, even when everyone was against it (in this matter).

And that is the hardest thing. For the most part these folks are sound in their beliefs about the Lord, but how can you have order in the middle of controlled chaos? It is tuff for my wife and I because some of these folks are our closest friends, which may create for a break in friendship for our unwillingness to accept unsound teaching.

Also, these scriptures that you quoted, I pretty much quoted the same, along with others, to the group. I did say if they could find one place in scripture that says women is the head of man, I WILL change my views. If it is scriptural, it is scriptural. No one could find one because it is not in the bible.

I never truly realized that working with believers would be much harder then working with pagens.

When wives become unsubmissive to their husbands as leaders of both family and the Church, they loose sight of God's manifest wisdom of the Church, as a bride, being in complete and utter submission to Christ. Just as Christ is utterly and totally submitted to the Father.

It is only in the wisdom of God that submission is a joy. Submission is not of this world. Women have a great privilege in being under the covering of leadership. Men in leadership have the right to make every desicion in fear and in trembling before a God who is just.

Dear Miccah

Let me ask you a question sir. Who in your congregation is preaching that man is Lord?

Jesus is Lord of your house, Lord of my house, Lord of the school house, Lord of the white house, Lord in all of earth, heaven, and hell, Jesus is Lord God of all creation and until your Lord speaks to you through your heart instead of your mind you want be able to proceed any further. Lord God didn’t take a bone out of man’s head, Lord God took a bone out of man's side and created woman.

Man is first in creation and first in carnal marriage so that the real Lord can teach His sheep and lambs as an esample how you both are to be in subject in marriage to our Lord's Body if we have been cleansed by fire and have Christ in us, our only hope of glory.

KJV
[For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.]

Man’s traditions are a lot more poisonous than wives tales.

In Love Eddie

2 Corinthians 4

1. Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2. But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8. We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9. Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10. Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12. So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
13. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
14. Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
15. For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
16. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18. While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

rowdy2 wrote:

Dear Miccah

Let me ask you a question sir. Who in your congregation is preaching that man is Lord?

Great question. No one is preaching man is Lord. I am preaching what the Word is and says.

...until your Lord speaks to you through your heart instead of your mind you want be able to proceed any further.

He also speaks to use through His written word, the Bible. The Bible is clear on this subject, it is just that some humans are not.

[KJV
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.]

This scripture has been used and abused from those that wish to create confusion on many matters such as this, to accepting homosexuality as ok. What manner of light do you hold this scripture to, what context are you wanting it to fit? This scripture has nothing to do with divine order and a women and mans role in the family and church. This scripture is about equal heirship to the promise (of salvation through faith), not about equal headship in regards to divine order.

[u][b]Galatians 3:26-29[/b][/u]

"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Many people confuse ability with order. Male headship with male domination. They also confuse a wife being submissive to her husband as being "seen and not heard". This is far from scriptual and anyone that preaches male domination over his wife knows not scripture.

Does a woman have capability to be an elder in the church? Absolutly, though it would be of an ungodly order. But, this does not change the fact that the Lord does not base His order on our ideas of capability? The Lord bases it on His criteria. Do you submit to His criteria??? To His will???

There are tons of scripture showing man as the head of the church/family. There are scriptures explaining how a man's family has to be in order for him to be considered as a leader from others. That are responsibilities of his wife and how she must hold up as well for consideration. Everything points to male headship, not female.

Thanks for your thoughts. Many blessings to all the saints, male and female.

homosexuality ?
I fill sorry for those people and my heart goes out to them, but I don’t feel sorry for the spreaders of spiritual homosexuality [men worshiping men] from some misguided religion into the people concerns me more.

rowdy2 wrote:

...I don’t feel sorry for the spreaders of spiritual homosexuality [men worshiping men] from some misguided religion into the people concerns me more.

wow. I've never been indirectly called a homosexual before.

I don't think you worship men. I understand a man and woman becoming one physical body in marriage, I have been married forty five years but I ask you to reconsider my point about the marriage of the body on earth to the Head in Heaven and pray with me that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Miccah wrote:

Many people confuse ability with order. Male headship with male domination. They also confuse a wife being submissive to her husband as being "seen and not heard". This is far from scriptual and anyone that preaches male domination over his wife knows not scripture.

Truly.

Also, Rowdy2, don't think for an instant that a wife being in submission to her husband means that she has become lower than him. In fact, without Biblical submission a man and woman cannot be one. Just as the geniousness and greatness of the Godhead. Just as Christ is submitted to the Father and the Spirit. Just as the Father is in submission to the Son and the Spirit. Just as the Spirit is in submission to Christ and the Father.

Hello Friedrick

Good points on spiritual union.

[So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

[then the fall

[then the reconciliation

[For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Only two chooses in my position

1]Sovereign Lordship of our Lord God.

or

2[rebellion and they are of one mind around the world, from India to China, from Sandia Arabia to Afghanistan, and from Rome to the pulpits of America they are of one mind and they deceive many and I was self deceived or by them at one time too.

God hath distributed to us a measure. I will stop before I stretch myself beyond my measure.

Miccah,

A lot of folks have given you wise counsel. What I am about to say may not work very well, but it could be worth a try.

To many people submission is a dirty concept: "I am my own boss and I can do as I please, THANK-YOU!" Males have their own way of living out this principle and since you are a male, I will let you fill in the blanks here. To females it takes on another form - that of submitting to authority God has set over her. Now males also have authority they need to submit to, like employers, the law, work to serve their fellowmen, and so on. The concept of submission is part and parcel of harmonious living, living in humility for the one who died and saved us.

May I suggest you approach this issue at the most basic level and then build up on it? Too many females have been abused by bullies or sexual predators and resent any males who want to 'lead' and are in a self-protecting mode. This does not justify rebellion but may explain what has happened.

To build on this concept you will have to teach them how all have to submit to [i][b]Someone[/b][/i] - no one is exempt. And how all benefit from it. One could use the expression Wal-Mart (or is it Lowe's?)employees have on their work vests: "How may I help you?" Actually, if you were to teach this concept, it is submission but is not called that. It is called service. Perhaps if you were to use this term and emphasize it, you may get somewhere. Don't know - people are strange and if they are hell-bent on resisting any submission, there may not be a whole lot you can do. The basic thing to remember is that God loves them still and perhaps you could pray that God would reveal to them the importance of submission. Why, I'll bet they expect their children to obey them, do they not? Why so?

Brother, you have a tough job. God bless you..

ginnyrose

Here is a good message that might help.

Jesus Never Comes Next - Vance Havner

ginnyrose wrote:

Miccah,

A lot of folks have given you wise counsel. What I am about to say may not work very well, but it could be worth a try.

Thank you for your words and counsel. I am open to anything that will improve my understanding of the word of God. I think that you hit it right on the head. We husbands are in submission to Chirst, and are not the top of the authority as some men would believe. We need to die to our wives, cherish and nurture them and place them above our own selfs and self interests.

[u][b]Ephesians 5:22-33[/b][/u]

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. [b]So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies;[/b] he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but [b]nourishes and cherishes it[/b], just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. [b]Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.[/b]

Brother, you have a tough job. God bless you..

Thank you sister ginnyrose.