The Arminian 'gospel'? (Spurgeon)

strong.

This makes me glad that I am neither an Arminian OR a Calvinist!

I had to smile when I read this. I just ended up deleting a post for this thread not 10 minutes ago. I had it all typed out - a rational reply on how unbalanced [i]both[/i] sides are (independant of each other), and how, like in algebra, to solve for "x" one must cancel out the factors on both sides of the equal sign.

Well, I was rubbing my hands together, ready to click "submit" and then remembered the Lord's admonition years ago: "Paul, you said you wouldn't get involved in these types of discussions on SermonIndex. If you post this, you'll only generate an argument."

It was nice to see Krispy use simple arithmetic. :-)

This makes me glad that I am neither an Arminian OR a Calvinist!

phil

That is to say, a man may be forgiven, and yet be punished
afterwards; he may be justified from all sin, and yet after that,
his transgressions can be laid on his shoulders again;
a man may be born of God, and yet die in his sins; a man may
be loved of God today, and yet God may hate him tomorrow.

What's the Calvinist interpretation of this parable?

Mat 18:22 \t Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 \tTherefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 \tAnd when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 \tBut forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 \tThe servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 \t[b]Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.[/b]
Mat 18:28 \tBut the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 \tAnd his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 \tAnd he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 \tSo when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 \tThen his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 \tShouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 \tAnd his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, [b]till he should pay all that was due unto him.[/b]
Mat 18:35 \t[b]So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.[/b]

PreachParsly wrote:

That is to say, a man may be forgiven, and yet be punished
afterwards; he may be justified from all sin, and yet after that,
his transgressions can be laid on his shoulders again;
a man may be born of God, and yet die in his sins; a man may
be loved of God today, and yet God may hate him tomorrow.

What's the Calvinist interpretation of this parable?

Mat 18:22 \t Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 \tTherefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 \tAnd when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 \tBut forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 \tThe servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 \t[b]Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.[/b]
Mat 18:28 \tBut the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 \tAnd his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 \tAnd he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 \tSo when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 \tThen his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 \tShouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 \tAnd his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, [b]till he should pay all that was due unto him.[/b]
Mat 18:35 \t[b]So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.[/b]

AMEN PreachParsely, it is undeniable what this text is saying-so perfectly put....

Dear Abe_Juliott

I noted that nearly all your posts are centered around this age old debate. I have a great respect for Spurgeon and listen to him ofen but I think he had a quite simplistic view of Arminianism. I am not picking up a fight with you, God bless you.

.
Siboleth or Shiboleth? Many fruitless and loveless words have been lost in this debate. Brother kills brother in 'friendly' fire.

Here is an anekdote from A.W.Tozer's biography:

I (Cliff Westergren) was preparing to go to Nyack College. Before I left there was one burning question I had in mind, and I went to Dr. Tozer and said, "Could you give me some advice concerning the problem of Calvinism versus Arminianism?"

And I'll never forget the advice he gave me. At the time I thought it was rather inconclusive and not too helpful. But I listened carefully. He said, "My son, when you get to college you're going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I'll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you'll be way down the line and they'll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God."

I am neither and both - call me a Christian. If I would tell you my position and you would disagree with me I am still looking forward to share eternity with you.

Philip

sermonindex wrote:
If we are promoting man's system of theology more then the scriptures and even God Himself (Christ) then we are already off base.

The Calvinist and the Arminian both believe they are promoting God and scripture. It’s just that they each believe they do it better than the other.

Is this not the crux of the matter?

Galatians 5:14 - 15 (ESV) 14For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

More words on top of more words on more threads... you would think there is going to be a segregated heaven. In the meantime....

Clint

Abe_Juliot wrote:
Let the Arminian go and preach his 'gospel'.
Let them go and tell poor sinners, that if they believe in Jesus
they may be damned after all, that Jesus Christ will forgive
them and yet the Father may afterwards send them to hell.

Joh 15:1-7 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [b] If[/b] a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and [b]I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

this clearly implies he can blot out your name....

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

this also seem like a threat from the Lord....

and there are many more i can find through the gospels, and in the letters of Paul, all his warnings to believers, and the other apostles letters, also letter to the Hebrews is filled with frightening verses...

All promises of God, even salvation comes with a condition, i can see it in scripture

hmmhmm wrote:

Abe_Juliot wrote:
Let the Arminian go and preach his 'gospel'.
Let them go and tell poor sinners, that if they believe in Jesus
they may be damned after all, that Jesus Christ will forgive
them and yet the Father may afterwards send them to hell.

Joh 15:1-7 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [b] If[/b] a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and [b]I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

this clearly implies he can blot out your name....

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

this also seem like a threat from the Lord....

and there are many more i can find through the gospels, and in the letters of Paul, all his warnings to believers, and the other apostles letters, also letter to the Hebrews is filled with frightening verses...

All promises of God, even salvation comes with a condition, i can see it in scripture

AMEN

Abe_Juliot wrote:
I don't mean to stir up division or exalt Calvinism.

Abraham, don't you realize that you are doing this very thing, thread after thread, months after months now? It is time for you finally to realize this. It was too much, actually 'too much' is very light word.

It is one thing what you are causing to yourself (putting God in box and unable to see anything else out of that box), it is other thing what your threads are causing to the body here.

I am telling you this with seriousness and brotherly love for considering.

Kire

Abe_Juliot wrote:

What's the Calvinist interpretation of this parable?

I can tell you what it doesn't mean.

It could not mean that a born again child of God may perish in the end:

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

If your born of God, you...
1. Sinneth not
2. keepeth yourself
3. And that wicked one toucheth you not

Those who are born of God cannot practice habitual sin.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Notice the very reason why they cannot, is because they are born of God...

Not because of their keeping themselves and sinnething not. Though they do keepeth themselves and sinneth not... this is not the foundation of their hope. The Foundation of their hope is in the finished work of Jesus and that God has promised that the work he began will be victorious.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God bless you dear brothers and sisters! -Abraham

Well the thing about the parable is; it isn't habitual sin-it was a one time act of sin=him not having mercy and compassion for his brother/fellowservant

The Bible teaches that if a brother doesn't love his brother, then eternal life doesn't REMAIN in him

And pertaining to 1 John 5:18-let me ask you, since you have been saved-have you ever sinned?