Wine or Grapejuice?

Here's the rules. #1. Love thy neighbor as thyself when giving your answer or defending yourself. #2. Just for kicks, I would like for everyone, after they give their thoughts on whether it's suppose to be (fermented) Wine or (non-fermented) Grapejuice, used in the Lord's Supper, to write down their personal denomination. I'm just being curious. By the way....I believe Wine, and I'm Southern Baptist. :-D

Considering my church uses those dinky little cups, I don't think anybody would know which one it was. :-D Grape juice, there are kids there. Denomination:Non-denomonational, got to love a term for something your NOT :-D And I agree with Wrtbooks, they shouldn't matter anyways._/crsschk\\_

I have the idea that grape juice is kinda like using little cubes of "leavened" bread instead of breaking a common piece of unleavened bread...seems a bit of an abomination to me...I have heard the arguement about "alchoholics", but then think that if drunkenness is a sin, and you are born again, then it should not be a problem...then i think about yeast being a "type" for sin, and worldliness... and think how very appropriate it is that we water down the "wine" of the Gospel, and use the "leaven' of the world...like I said, just thoughts...I tend to call myself a baptist, but prefer the name "Christ ian...."Allen wrote:Here's the rules. #1. Love thy neighbor as thyself when giving your answer or defending yourself. #2. Just for kicks, I would like for everyone, after they give their thoughts on whether it's suppose to be (fermented) Wine or (non-fermented) Grapejuice, used in the Lord's Supper, to write down their personal denomination. I'm just being curious. By the way....I believe Wine, and I'm Southern Baptist. :-D

Saved, born again and washed in the blood and filled with the Holy Ghost.........I was always taught that it was New Wine or unfermented ---therefore...Grape juice!!!!!!! I guess you could consider me interdenominational ;-)

First we’ll look at the Last Supper. In not one of the gospels recording this event is there any mention of "wine." Just examine the texts:Matt. 26:27, "…he took the cup"Matt. 26:29, "…I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."Mk. 14:23, "…he took the cup"Mk. 14:25, "…the fruit of the vine"Lk. 22:17, "…he took the cup"Lk. 22:18, "…the fruit of the vine"When Paul deals with the Lord’s Supper, he refers to the "cup:"1 Cor. 11:25, "…he took the cup"1 Cor. 11:26, "…drink this cup"1 Cor. 11:27, "…drink this cup"1 Cor. 11:28, "…drink of that cup"The Bible makes no mention of wine, but only the fruit of the vine. That’s very important because "new wine is found in the cluster," (Is. 65:8). The grapes can be pressed directly into the cup (Gen. 40:10-11), which is what the butler did who dreamed about the vine and branches.A careful study of Deut. 29:29-38 with 1 Cor. 10:16-21 and 1 Cor. 11:23-32 will reveal to you that there are two different Communions. One is a "memorial" to a risen Saviour who soon will return, and the other is "a sacrifice and offering" to devils. You can be sure that the memorial is not conducted with fermented liquor any more than the first one was.Baptist

I also believe that grape juice should be used. Not because there are children present, since I don't think children really understand the significance of the Lord's Supper yet (it's a personal opinion...let's stay on topic!).I have a strong personal conviction against alcohol in general. Greg referenced 1 Timothy 5:23...water was not clean during those times and contained bacteria which caused much illness and even death. Alcohol killed the bacteria, which tells me it was used for medicinal purposes. The Bible also frequently condemns drunkenness, and in these times it's too easy a temptation to give into for many. Also, how are we to know if perhaps a Christian struggling with alcoholism or an alcoholic past might not be presented that temptation in church, when wine is presented for the Lord's supper?In my eyes, there are so many reasons to avoid the use of alcohol.I do not have a denomination...I'm simply Christian (which is enough :-) ) but I choose to worship at a Southern Baptist church.

This one is just toooooooo good to pass up!:-D I'll deal with my denominational affiliation first if that's ok. I consider myself first and foremost a Christian, if I had to give myself any other title outside of that it would be Pentecostal(classic pentecostal). I attend an Assembly of God in Bismark Missouri and I am a student at Central Bible College in Springfield.Before I go into this I will say that I am against using wine in the Lord's supper. But I must say that we have to treat this subject in honesty and not fall to historical fabrications of goodwilled men who made stuff up to try to help God out a little with the temperance movement.As it is hard to accurately convey emotions through writing I will say that I am answering this in the spirit of the rules of the debate that Allan laid out and will remain lighthearted.First we must deal with a little history. The only way to store grape juice was to ferment it. Actually, when grape juice was stored that's exactly what it did. Mr. Welch didn't exist until the 1800's. That's when he invented the pasturizing process to stop the fermentation. So, unless you were popping a grape into your mouth, you didn't drink grape juice, you drank wine.sbd wrote: "I was always taught that it was New Wine or unfermented ---therefore...Grape juice!!!!!!! "Reply: You were taught wrong my brother. New wine is actually more intoxicating than other wines. It had not been watered down yet.Herdman, I love you in the Lord so please take this in the commical fassion that I am hoping to convey, but I wish my vehicle got as much mileage as you did out of these scriptures...lol. You really did some backflips on this one bro.Here is a scripture you used: Matt. 26:29, "…I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."And then you did some wrestling here to wrench out of this passage that they were only drinking grape juice.Let me quote a passage that Jesus was referring to when He said He will not drink of the "fruit of the vine" until He drinks it in the kingdom with us. Isaiah 25:6 On this mountain the Lord almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of *aged wines*--the best of meats and the finest of *wines.* This chapter is an apocolyptic prohecy of the final age when all of God's people are finally gathered together forever. There can be no mistaking what Isaiah meant here when he wrote this down.Now the passages you used to back your position. Genisis 40:10-11 (This is a dream. The grapes being squeezed into the cup were symbolic of wine. There is nothing in history to support the practice of merely squeezing grapes into a cup)Isaiah 65:8 Thus says the Lord, "As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, 'Do not destroy it, for there is benefit it it,' So I will act on behalf of My servants in order not to destroy all of them.You are creating a pretext when you take this to mean that new wine is merely grape juice. Here the passage is speaking of the Lord preparing to bring judgement upon His people, a severe judgement.Israel here is compared to a cluster of grapes and the Lord is saying that he will spare some as they are still benificial to Him. Just like you wouldn't destroy the good grapes with the bad ones because the good ones can still make, guess what?, wine.Quote: "A careful study of Deut. 29:29-38 with 1 Cor. 10:16-21 and 1 Cor. 11:23-32 will reveal to you that there are two different Communions. One is a "memorial" to a risen Saviour who soon will return, and the other is "a sacrifice and offering" to devils. You can be sure that the memorial is not conducted with fermented liquor any more than the first one was."Reply: I'm sure that the chapter you provided for Deutoronomy is a typo as ch. 29 has only 29 verses. But I did a study of those as you suggested. There is certainly a difference made between the worship of the Lord and the worship of idols. Unfortunately it had nothing to do with alcohol my friend. The content of the drink was not Moses' or Paul's concern. They were dealing with people who were involved in idolatry, in other words they were going to temples in honor of idols and participating in the worship there. Paul and Moses had nothing to say about alcohol in these passages.In conclusion I will say that I stand with those wholeheartedly who are against the use of alcohol in communion, but neither will I condemn those who do use it. We cannot, cannot, try to make the scriptures say something that they just are not saying. Gordon Fee put it best when he said that the scriptures cannot mean what they never meant. The Bible is clearly and absolutely against drunkeness. But, in light of scripture, I can only, honestly say that the Bible does not condemn the PROPER use of alcohol. And I cannot stress PROPER enough here.Much love,In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Don't you just cringe when some smug "scholar" tells you how a thing was in history and then doesn't cite references to show you the "proof?"Hulsey's statement on the history of storing grape juice is completely and thoroughly refuted by Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University at the following website:http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.htmlDr. Bacchiocchi describes four different ancient methods of preserving grape juice and quotes sources to prove the processes. Hulsey was just pulling your leg when he said that juice preservation didn't start until pastuerization.The reason for quoting the New Testament references on the Lord's Supper was to show that neither the Lord nor Paul ever referred to "wine" in its observance. Nor did they refer to "new wine." "Fruit of the vine" is the phrase used. Furthermore, there is no creation of a pretext in quoting Is. 65:8, for a Biblical definition of new wine. The reference is a similitude that uses the new wine in the cluster as a simile for the Lord not destroying all his servants. And the Bible says, "As new wine is found in the cluster..." That's where it's found.Dr. Bacchiocchi deals with the reference to Is. 25:6 in his description of an ancient method of preserving grape juice through filtration.The reference in Deut. is to Deut. 32, not Deut. 29.In passing, the process of fermentation takes place when yeast converts sugar to alcohol and carbon dioxode. Yeast is a leavening agent. In order for fermented wine to have been used at the Lord's Supper, therefore, the juice would have been subjected to leaven. That's a nice combination with "unleavened" bread, don't you think?In Jesus,Herdman

Let's avoid namecalling and flaming at all costs, Herdman. No one was being smug; Hulsey was simply enthusiastic and happy to share his knowledge with us. Whether you agree or not, Herdman, explain your point with love, as we're commanded to do.

Herdman,I would like to apologize for offending you. That was the last thing that I had in mind. I hope that you will not hold this against me.I certainly wasn't trying to come across as smug, but in a comical way. I obviously failed. I am flattered that you called me a scholar. I am certainly not one. I hope that I can be one one day as I continue my studies. And I hope that I am a scholar that is pleasing to my Lord and beneficial to the body of Christ.The link you provided is very thought provoking and interesting. I read all of it. I do have one for you to look at too. I have copied and will paste a section of it below. Once again I do sincerely apologize to you and all. Here is the section of the web site followed by the link. I hope you find it as interesting as I found yours:"The most popular "fact" presented in defense of this seeming contradiction is that the wine of the Bible was non-alcoholic. In other words, the contention is that when the Bible says "wine" it really means "grape juice." If this were the case, why the 17 warnings against drunkenness and the abuse of wine in the Bible? How did the partakers of the Lord's table at the church of Corinth get drunk on grape juice? Why would Paul say, "Be not drunk with wine?" Others say that it may have been alcoholic, but the alcoholic content was so low that it doesn't compare with the wine of today. The same questions apply to this revised "fact." Whatever the alcoholic content of the wine of Bible times, it was at a sufficient level for there to be a need for warnings against drunkenness. And what of the 20 references in the Bible to people actually getting drunk? The only reasonable conclusion is that when the Bible says "wine" then that is exactly what it means."http://www.drbacchus.com/bible/alcohol.htmlIn Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Yeast (a type of sin in the bible) is used in the fermentation process. So, I far as I am concerned, to use fermented grape juice in the communion service is an abomination! It implies that Jesus' blood is defiled. Jesus' blood is not defiled, but pure and holy. In Deut 32:14 it talks of the pure (undefiled) blood (juice) of the grape.Christians and alcohol don't mix. I'm Pentecostal.dpike

This is slightly off topic but is in reponse to something Chosen7Stone brought up:since I don't think children really understand the significance of the Lord's Supper yetThis brings up a point I would like to make, if a child is old enough to take communion then they are old enough to be baptised in water.And if you do not think a child is old enough to be baptised in water then they are not old enough to take communion.As far as wine or grape juice then I believe wine can be a stumbling block to reformed alcoholics and therefore should not be used as I don't believe it is essential.I do not belong to a denomination.

First I am Christian and of a non-demoninational mindset. If I had catagorize myself I would say Pentacostal. I have attended A/G churches in the past but also home churched for several years and know go to a non-dem. church.As far as wine or juice for communion, I would say juice. I also know some who use wine and I do not condemn that but can't say I understand why. My question to a drinking professing Christian is why? Why are you drinking wine with your meal? Why do you want to have a beer? Do you like the taste, is it because the medical news says that's good for you? If it is not of faith then it is sin. Can you say you drink by faith?I struggled with having a beer or two after I got saved. God did set me free and I have continued to walk in that grace. My struggle was because of my own deceived thinking and I believe the lack of teaching soon after I got saved. I make no excuses though.Interesting you asked about denominations because there are clearing some that will make you feel very comfortable drinking among many other things. We should be provoking one another to righteousness. Does drinkin gfit into that.I recommend everyone getting a copy of the book Sipping Saints by David Wilkerson and see what he has to say about it.

I read "Sipping Saints" over a year ago I think. At the time, I had a very legalistic mindset and I was encouraged in that mindset by this book. It gave me fuel to feel self-righteous for my "ability" to reform my bad habits. It also made me feel what I thought at the time was "righteous indignation" but what I now clearly see as unrighteous anger and frustration. I was angry at and frustrated with the people close to me who drank, at all. But mercy triumphs over judgement. Pretty soon I realized that if I prayed for these people at all, it was mostly to relieve my conscience, since I was being so hard on them. But my love towards them was not sincere, at least for the most part. Because it wasn't so much that I was concerned for them but I was passionate about being anti-alcohol. The tricky thing is that I was sincerely in love with God and thought I was doing what was right. ANd since I felt like, and it seemed clear to me, that I was the most radical Christian of all the people I knew, I was probably really right about this. I felt it was "tough love" but I was wrong. It was "tough pride" and legalism and I was heaping condemnation on them and myself. The book makes some interesting points but is clearly not conclusive on the matter, though it kind of claims to be (if I remember correctly). I believe the book tries to deal with a surface issue but really the bigger problem is a heart issue. I don't know if anyone should try and reform their habits or really do anything because someone else (man) thinks they "should." I think it's best to lift them up in prayer and remember that you will be judged by the same measure you judge others. And "blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy."

I think in biblical language wine doesn't need to be intoxicating. In Isaiah 16:10 the prophet speaks of "wine in the presses" and in Joel 2:24 we read about the presses that overflow with wine. It seems clear that in those examples the word wine is referring to grape juice. Also, in additional to what Herdman cited concerning juice preservation, the Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary cites ancient skills for the preservation of grape juice all year long. See ZPBD, p. 895.Also for your consideration; in light of 1 Cor 5:11 and Gal 5:21 , would Jesus have provided some 150 gallons of alcoholic drink at the wedding feast in Cana? I don't think so.In Christ,Ron

Hi Guys, Its been quite a while since I have posted with this fine group of believers.I myself am Pentecostal (or at least that is where I am attending service)and even tho there are some who I am sure will not agree with me, This is how I see it.In the book of John at the wedding of Cana where Jesus turned the water into wine, lets look at what the head waiter had to say:"...Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine and when the men have well drunk...." John 2:10aThis implies that these men were feeling no pain and so the prior wine did have alchohol. Now He says of the wine that Jesus had presented:"...Then that which is worse; but thou hast kept the good wine until now..."John 2:10bNow this is the waiter who because he was working the wedding would have known the difference if it were grape juice or not. So I would say that this was real wine, the kind that that makes you feel no pain.Now look at Matt 11:18-19" For John came neither eating nor drinkingand they say he had a demon.The Son of mancame both eating and Drinkingand they say, Behold a man glutttonous, and a winebiber..."They were obviously not accusing Him of being a winebiber (Drunkard) because of Him drinking grape juice. Tho I myself dont believe He got drunk either.Now many times there is reference to the fruit of the vine which has always been another word for wine no matter how you look at it. So yes I believe it was wine at the "last supper".Those are just a couple of the things I have noticed. Now do I think that we as Christians should freely indulge in alchohol? No I am not saying that at all. But sometimes we can become legalistic in our thinking and look at others with condemnation who may not have the same convictions that another might have.Also Paul had told Timmothy to have a little wine for the stomach and not to drink water only.Some say it was because of an ailment and it was medicinal. Well o k that could be, But I myself think it was bitterness and Paul was telling him to loosen ole friend.And even if it was an actual stomach problem, wine or alchohol is the last thing you would want to prescribe. And would if it be a sin to drink wine would Paul have prescribed it?I am asking this as much as a question as I am stating my understanding I Tim 3:3 it tells the Bishops to not be addicted to wine (NASB), Not given to wine (KJV), Not given to drunkeness (NIV)To me this is saying to not be a heavy drinker or a constant drinker -- not total abstenance.I am open to correction and know I am going against the grain from most mainstream beliefs--so be gentle on me.In Jesus

I have always tended to view today's ritual of 'Holy Communion' with some suspicion. Jesus' command in the bible was to "do this as often as you drink it." And what was 'this' that he referred to? well it must have been whatever he did before he said that. On close inspection we find out he gave thanks. To me, that means I should always focus on the fact God has provided me with this food, and that it is not earthly food and drink that sustains me anyway, but the Word of God, which sustains me in eternal life.Give thanks to God.As for the passage in Corinthians, let's see what the early church did. They ate a meal together, and invited the poor - in fact, there's nothing to suggest that this was a ritual at all, I think the meal was just a meal, for convenience of those meeting there (maybe it was a bible study), and perhaps with some charitable notions. But Paul refers to what Jesus had said, to remind them that they were eating food provided by the Lord and not themselves, and so they should not presume to eat the food they had brought so greedily, without first letting those who were not so well off and were in need of food and drink, have their fill.As for the alchohol issue, I am young, and have never been addicted to wine, so perhaps I don't know the temptation - but i hardly think that a tiny sip of wine would send someone crazy for it, but if that is the case then why not use grape juice - seeing as I understand the ceremony to be a bit ritualistic anyway - and devoid of any true purpose other than symbolism (and when you get it every week then it starts to lose its message a bit.) On the whole, why not spend the money used to buy a meal for the poor - and remind the congregation of Christ's death through the sermon!And for the record I currently attend an Anglican church, but my allegiance to Christ is certainly greater than my allegiance to any denomination.

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is deceived by it is not wise.Proverbs 20:1It is not for kings to drink wine or for rulers to desire strong drink..Give strong drink to hm who is perishing, and wine to him whose life is bitter.Proverbs 31:4-6Do not drink wine or strong drink, neither you nor your sons with you, when you come into the tent of meeting, so that you may not die--it is a prepetual statute throughout your generation--and so as to make a distinction between the holy and the profane, and between the unclean and the clean..Leviticus 10:9-10Dear Christians, saints, kings and priests unto Jesus, called and separated unto God, called out of darkness into His marvelous light, those not perishing but having eternal life, souls full of rejoicing and peace not bitterness. Keep away from that which mocks, brawls, deceives and leads astray and leave it for those for whom it is fitting.Sincerely in Christ,God bless,Mike

Their is much controversey over drinking and Christians in the Church Today. Many so called believers believe it,s ok to have an occasional beer or drink intoxicated bevreges I guess we forgot that our body was the temple of the Holy Spirit. Proverbs Teaches not to look upon the wine when it is red and when it moveth itself in the cup. What this is refering to occurred when the wine was fermenting and turning what we would call acholic today. Holy men in the Bible were forbidded to touch it and the ones that did got corrupted by it. Lot Noah and others. I want you to walk with me through an illustarion. we are going to go in 3 rooms. Room number 1. Here we find a car accident has just occurred . lying before us is the remains of a baby and her mother. There was no chance to save them they were hit head on at 65 mph from a drunk that just came from a bar. He was told to take a cab but he was not new to drinking and he assurred himself he would be fine. Room 2 Here before us lies a Wife who has just been battered so badly by her husband who was drunk that she will remain paralyzed for the rest of her life. Room 3. Here we find a 15 year old girl crying I don,t understand why me there must be a mistake I can,t be pregnant. The young girl was at a party with some freinds and a older boy took advantage of her knowing that she was so drunk she would not even know. Now i want you to Bring Jesus in any one of these rooms and ask him did you ever put anything that was made in this substance in your body. I can imagine Jesus weeping at the ? would our Lord condone puttting posion in our Temples. The Church does not need a great awakening it needs a rude awakening. Alcahol is related to 80% of all crime . It is destroying the youth of America. christians must flee from it and be an example to the rest of the World. I pray this would stir at least one person to forsake drinking and get on fire for Jesus Christ.