To The Prisoners - Fox

H

HeartSong Jan 30, 2008

To The Prisoners (1657)

Friends, - Ye that are the prisoners of the the Lord Jesus Christ in outward bonds, who witness him by whom the world was made, who is the King of saints, and who are his, and come under his dominion and government, ye are not your own; but purchased with his blood, which washes and makes you clean, and justifies, whose bodies are his temple. Though he suffers you to be imprisoned, yet in his power your bodies are kept, and your spirits also; ye standing witnesses for your master, for your king, for your prophet, for your covenant of light, for your wisdom of God, (him by whom all things were made,) for the word and power, by which all things were made and upheld, against the powers of darkness, who are out of the light, out of the truth, who cannot bind, stop, nor limit the unlimited power, which is over it, and comprehends it. They who are born of the world, and in the power which upholds all things, over that, (and the power of the evil one,) have victory, and sing over the false prophet. For the devil was the deceiver, who abode not in the truth; and there is the false prophet, who speaks of his own, and not from the Lord; and there is the beast, that makes the war against the lamb and his saints , who witness the testimony of Jesus, and the word of God. Therefore mind the word of God, ye children of the light, who are in the light, that comes from the word; mind the word of the Lord, which is a hammer, and as a fire, and sharper than a two-edged sword. And ye who are the Lord's, are not your own; but they who are in their own time, see not the time which is in the Father's hand; their time is always,and they do their own works, and not the works of God, which the son of God did.

- George Fox

sermonindex Jan 30, 2008

Heartsong,

are you a Friend (Quaker)? do you know about George Fox and his teachings?

this is from his journal:

"I was to bring them off from all the world's fellowships, and prayings, and singings, which stood in forms without power; that their fellowship might be in the Holy Ghost, and in the Eternal Spirit of God; that they might pray in the Holy Ghost, and sing in the Spirit and with the grace that comes by Jesus; making melody in their hearts to the Lord, who hath sent His beloved Son to be their Saviour, and hath caused His heavenly sun to shine upon all the world, and His heavenly rain to fall upon the just and the unjust, as His outward rain doth fall, and His outward sun doth shine on all.

I was to bring people off from Jewish ceremonies, and from heathenish fables, and from men's inventions and worldly doctrines, by which they blew the people about this way and the other, from sect to sect; and from all their beggarly rudiments, with their schools and colleges for making ministers of Christ, -- who are indeed ministers of their own making, but not of Christ's; and from all their images, and crosses, and sprinkling of infants, with all their holy-days (so called), and all their vain traditions, which they had instituted since the Apostles' days, against all of which the Lord's power was set: in the dread and authority of which power I was moved to declare against them all, and against all that preached and not freely, as being such as had not received freely from Christ."

Fox opposed programmed worship, public congregational prayer, "the sprinkling" (water baptism), crosses (and all other graven images) and much that is standard practice in the vast majority of worship services of today's Churches. If your form of worship does not invite the active presence of the Holy Spirit and allow for people moved by this Spirit to speak for it, then Fox would not approve.

bub

P

psalm1 Jan 30, 2008

sounds ok to me

David

sermonindex Jan 31, 2008

For the devil was the deceiver, who abode not in the truth; and there is the false prophet, who speaks of his own, and not from the Lord; and there is the beast, that makes the war against the lamb and his saints , who witness the testimony of Jesus, and the word of God. Therefore mind the word of God, ye children of the light, who are in the light, that comes from the word; mind the word of the Lord, which is a hammer, and as a fire, and sharper than a two-edged sword.

Amen.

I was to bring people off from Jewish ceremonies, and from heathenish fables, and from men's inventions and worldly doctrines, by which they blew the people about this way and the other, from sect to sect; and from all their beggarly rudiments, with their schools and colleges for making ministers of Christ, -- who are indeed ministers of their own making, but not of Christ's; and from all their images, and crosses, and sprinkling of infants, with all their holy-days (so called), and all their vain traditions, which they had instituted since the Apostles' days, against all of which the Lord's power was set: in the dread and authority of which power I was moved to declare against them all, and against all that preached and not freely, as being such as had not received freely from Christ."

Fox was reacting against dead "form" in the Church of England. He was a reformer and revolutionary in his day. And surely a modern day apostle. A reading of all of his journals and works will show a good balance in his beliefs. He was a man used of God to bring life back into dead religion in his day.

A

ADisciple Jan 31, 2008

I understand from a Quaker who mails out George Fox'es writings that there is a renewed interest in this early Quaker apostle these days. But it is coming from people who don't consider themselves Quakers.

I myself fall into this category.

And in fact the early Quakers did not call themselves by that name. They called themselves the Friends.

Is there a greater calling than to be in spirit and in truth a Friend of God? And to be no fair-weather friend of His?

Fox says in one of his writings (Complete Works, Volume 5) that they were "a people who the world in scorn calls Quakers," but that Christ was known to them as the "divine heavenly Light, which we own and believe in, as He commands, who are children of the Light; which name Christ bestowed upon us before you professors nicknamed us Quakers in the year 1650, which name one Bennet, at Darby, gave us, when he cast us into prison..."

So... "children of Light." They believed in the Light, and became "the children of Light" (Jn. 12.36).

...But I think the word Quaker was well given, for they were a people "who trembled at His Word."

As with all the movements of God throughout history, the Quaker movement is pretty much in apostasy these days. (George Fox would certainly agree with this statement, as do many modern-day Quakers themselves.)

...By "professors" Fox meant Christians who claimed an outward "profession" of Christ but had merely an outward form of it that lacked the power of the Spirit. These latter he called "possessors."

I find his writings, particularly his journal, convicting.

AD

sermonindex Jan 31, 2008

"He (Fox) was a man used of God to bring life back into dead religion in his day."

Greg, we agree on something!! :-)

Unfortunately, i think Fox would be discouraged by the dead religion (Church) of today. Raised as a Lutheran, I experienced the deadness of the "form" of religion that is called Protestant. Stand up now, sit down now, say this prayer, sing this song together, now say the Lord's Prayer in unison, listen with attention to the prepared words of our worship leader, and DO NOT pay any attention to that still, quite, small voice inside of you telling you that God is ignoring this worship service because it is little more than a weekly ritual practiced by sinners who want to be entertained and reassured that God will forgive them as long as they give 10% to the church, are baptised, take communion, and utter publicly the Creed.

Where are those who are willing to worship by quitely waiting upon the Lord, keep their confessions in the prayer closet and between themselves and God, and act in daily life as if they are following after Jesus????

bub

sermonindex Jan 31, 2008

Unfortunately, i think Fox would be discouraged by the dead religion (Church) of today.

Fox would be grieved over what is called friends today. The quakers are very very far from the original. Personally I see barely any connect in most friends societies.

sermonindex Jan 31, 2008

Here is some more information on George Fox and the Religious Society of Friends

The origins of the Society are found in the seventeenth century in England, a time when many were questioning the established beliefs of the age. George Fox (1625-1691) did not find answers to his questions in any of the churches of his day. Out of his searching came the spiritual message which swept a large part of the country and which resulted in the formation of the Religious Society of Friends.

Friends witnessed to an Alternative Christianity quite distinct from the churches of the time. As a result they were persecuted both by Cromwell's Puritan government and by the restored government of Charles II. Fox did not intend to start a new sect. He wanted to persuade the church to return to what it had been in the days of the Apostles. He proclaimed the early preaching of Peter (Acts, chapter 2 and 3) that Jesus, who had been present in the flesh, had risen from the dead and was now come in the Spirit. That Jesus acted in the hearts of his followers purifying and empowering them.

Pursuing Peter's teaching, Fox called for a radical, egalitarian, spirit-filled Christianity that would not be oppressive of people on account of race, sex, or class. He maintained that the message of the early church had been lost when the church became institutionalized and believed that he, and others with him, could stand in exactly the same state as Apostles, with the same power to teach, to heal, and to prophesy that the Apostles had.

The Ministry of All Believers
George Fox challenged the belief of the Roman Catholic and Episcopal churches in the necessity for, and the authority of, a hierarchical structure of Priests and Bishops. He claimed that everyone was able to have a personal relationship with the living Jesus without having to depend on the intercessions of a Priest or Minister. He taught that there is one, Jesus Christ, who can speak to each person's condition and the responsibility for ministry therefore rested upon all.

The Place of the Bible
Friends hold that the words of the Bible should not be taken as the final revelation of God. The Books had been written by men who were acting under the power of the Holy Spirit and it was necessary to read the words in the power of the same spirit and to listen to what the Spirit then spoke in your heart. The words were active agents in the sense that, when read in the Spirit at the appropriate time, they would spring to life for the reader and take the reader forward on his or her spiritual journey.

The Light Within
George Fox preached the Good News that we were all children of God and that, as children of God, we had inherited powers from God. Each of us was given a measure of this power or light and in accordance with how we used it, so more would be given to us. Jesus had possessed this power or light, without measure so that he became the Light and the Light within is Jesus Christ.

The Inner Voice
Friends believe that if they wait silently upon God there will be times when God will speak to them in the heart. The silent Meeting of Friends is therefore the sacrament of communion with God during which Friends lay themselves open to the leading of the Spirit. George Fox often wrote about his ``openings'', meaning revelations and it has been the experience of Quakers over the centuries that ``openings'' will occur in the mind of that ``a way will open''.
Openings can come to individuals when they are alone or may come out of the silence of a gathered Meeting for Worship. It is a perennial question as to whether a leading comes from God, from one's own ego, or from another power and it is the practice in the Society of Friends to test a leading or a concern in a meeting with others.

When they meet for business Friends strive to obtain the ``sense of the meeting'' from those present before taking action for they recognize the light as a force which creates unity among all who respond to it or who ``answer it in one another''. It does not follow that a majority is always right; a prophetic role is a lonely one and, if a concern is deeply felt and continues to be raised, the Meeting will continue to hear it and may later come to recognize its validity.

Equality before God
From the beginning Friends gave women and men equal status, for the fact that we are all children of God bestowed an equality upon all. This concept led to the testimony that one person should not set himself above others through human honors and distinctions which were meaningless in the sight of God. From this came the Quaker practices of simple living, plain dress and plain speech.

The Inward and Outward Journeys
One of the most important messages that Quakers have to offer is that religion, or belief, is experiential. It is not just a matter of accepting words or practices but of experiencing God for oneself.
The fact that God is always present means that the whole of a person's life is sacramental; Friends affirm the need to practice the presence of God in all activity. It follows, therefore, that Friends emphasize the importance of combining the inward and outward journeys. To take the inward without the outward will lead to selfishness. You go inward to wait upon and receive the word and support of God and then take this out to action in the world. To take the outward journey without the inward leads to ``burn out'' because the essential support is not there to be called upon. The Inward/Outward Journey is the practical application of Jesus' summary of the Law: ``Love God and your neighbor as yourself.''

It is the inward/outward process that has led Friends into pioneering social action such as reforms of prisons, schools and mental institutions, improving conditions of employment, supporting refugees and others in need, providing an ambulance service in wartime and examining the consequences of proposed legislation.

The Peace Testimony
As a Peace Church, the Society of Friends has always played a leading part in opposing preparations for war. The Peace Testimony, which is a very important Quaker principle, arose out of the belief in the in-dwelling Light or ``that of God'' in people. If that of God was a reality within oneself it would be denying the inner Spirit to take up arms against another.
Quaker practice does not permit the overcoming of some persons by other persons but tends toward the integration of various points of view into a new and higher level, for they recognize the Light as a force which creates unity amongst all who respond to it or answer it in one another. In appealing to the Light within another we also appeal to the Light within ourselves; as a result, we may find that the other is right and we are wrong. The Light is a source of unity. Force may create a superficial unity but it cannot provide organic unity.

Quaker Practices
Over the years the practice of Quakerism has developed in different ways in different regions. Members of the Society have been affected by varying influences such as the greater awareness of Eastern religions, the growth of psychology and the development of scientific knowledge. Since the Society is non-creedal, the spectrum of belief held by Friends has widened and different opinions may be held in different places or cultures. When one considers the diversity in other denominations, the differences between Friends are less remarkable. Friends Meetings may be either unprogrammed or programmed, the latter normally being led by a pastor.

Friends and other Faiths
Quakers have always taught that the Light of Christ has been given to all people everywhere. They maintained that many persons who never heard the historic Christ have had experiential knowledge of the Christ within and would hold, with Paul, that the Eternal Christ was known before the historic Christ. However, Friends are prepared to receive insights from wheresoever they may come and agree that there are things to be learned from contact with other religions. Friends are therefore ready to dialogue with people of other faiths and to share with them insights from our respective inheritances. However, Quakerism remains rooted in the Christian faith and the centrality of Jesus is paramount, although his sovereignty is not unanimously upheld.

Summary
The Religious Society of Friends is an Alternative Christianity which emphasizes the personal experience of God in one's life. Quakers understand the necessity of first listening to God before working in the world. They affirm the equality of all people before God regardless of race, station in life, or sex and this belief leads them into a range of social concerns.
Being "Children of Light" they find recourse to violence intolerable. Quaker thought is both mystical (waiting upon God) and prophetic (speaking truth to power). Friends believe that God's revelation is still continuing, that God is not absent or unknowable but that we can find God ourselves and establish a living relationship thus being able to live in the world free from the burden and guilt of sin. It is the search for a closer relationship with God that is the Way.

Religious knowledge, like the appreciation of beauty, is not attained by a logical process of thought but by experience and feeling. Quakers maintain that the teaching of Jesus is a practical method for the guidance of the world today, that religion is concerned with the whole of life, and that, beyond a certain point, definition becomes a limitation.

bub

sermonindex Jan 31, 2008

Worldwide: most recent membership count = 358,923
United States: 2005 membership count = 87,022
http://www.quakerinfo.org/resources/worldstats.html

Most of the modern quakers are "apostate" and do not have the experience of regeneration. This was not so back in George Fox's day when many were regenerated and came to know Christ in a real way experiencing new birth.

Most of quakers are now "liberal" and do not believe the bible truly as the revelation of God whereas George Fox memorized the entire bible and esteemed it "truth".

http://midlothianfriends.org/beliefs/beliefs.asp
Q. What do Quakers believe in?
A. Quakers believe in many things, but the primary belief is that there is 'that of God in everyone'. This is an expression that means that Quakers believe that there is a measure of the divine in each human being, a spark or inner voice that we can attend to. Our mode of silent worship is based on listening for that inner voice to manifest itself, and thus lead and guide our lives.

--
the above George Fox did not teach, his references to the light within where to those who experienced regeneration and would be guided and taught by Christ. The liberal form of quakerism is "new age" and actually guides people to the devil who is a angel of light rather then Christ.

Hartford, CT:
The meeting issued the following statement on 1986-MAR: 4
"The Meeting affirms the goodness of committed, loving relationships and offers recognition and support to those who share this ideal and desire to enter into a permanent relationship based upon it. By tradition, the Meeting recognizes committed union in a celebration of marriage under the care of the Meeting. The same loving care and consideration should be given to both same-sex and heterosexual applicants as outlined in Faith and Practice."

Beacon Hill, MA:
The meeting issued the following statement on 1988-MAR: 4
"We, the members and attenders of Beacon Hill Monthly Meeting, affirm our belief in that of God in every person. Furthermore, we attest that this belief embraces all persons regardless of sexual orientation."

"Beacon Hill affirms that all couples, including those of the same sex, have equal opportunity to be married within the framework of the meeting process. The love between these couples, as it grows, will enrich their relationship, the Meeting, and the world at large. The Meeting is committed to supporting these couples according to their needs."

"Where there is a genuine tenderness, an openness to responsibility, and the seed of commitment, God is surely not shut out. Can we not say that God can enter any relationship in which there is a measure of selfless love?" This tolerant attitude probably reflects the view of most British Quakers.

Quakers and Homosexuality

One of the most open welcomes for homosexuals may be found in a statement produced by Quakers of Westminster Meeting: "We affirm the love of God for all people, whatever their sexual orientation, and our conviction that sexuality is an important part of human beings as created by God, so that to reject people on the grounds of their sexual behaviour is a denial of God's creation."

http://www.qlgf.org.uk/quakers.htm

sermonindex Jan 31, 2008

Greg,

this issue, homosexuality, is one that divides the Religious Society of Friends. it is not one we have "clearness" on and each Monthly Meeting makes their own choices based upon the leadings of their members and a consensus decision making process among them.

personally, i am uncomfortable with Meetings that welcome same-sex couples and conduct same-sex marriages. yet, i am not "gay" and i understand that there are genetic factors that make some people homosexual from birth. in essence, God made them this way. they didn't choose it and it is not a matter of a person's will.

but i also understand that some people make a choice to be sexually deviant and this is wrong and affects our society, and children in particular, in a negative, harmful way. it leads to confusion and sinful, abusive behavior.

From what i know, the Meetings that are open to homosexuals are not open to "anything goes" but are genuinely seeking to support their members committments to their life partnerships. from what Fox said about the words of the Bible being appropriate in context of the time they were spoken, but not necessarily outside of that context, i can only put my personal feelings aside and pray that Meetings that are inclusive are following the Leadings of the Holy Spirit as made known to them.

bub

sermonindex Jan 31, 2008

quote:
Fox would be grieved over what is called friends today. The quakers are very very far from the original. Personally I see barely any connect in most friends societies.

~~[b]~~Most of the modern quakers are "apostate" and do not have the experience of regeneration. This was not so back in George Fox's day when many were regenerated and came to know Christ in a real way experiencing new birth.

Most of quakers are now "liberal" and do not believe the bible truly as the revelation of God whereas George Fox memorized the entire bible and esteemed it "truth". [/b]

quakerism is NOT bible centric anymore but it definitely had the foundation of the scriptures before ie George Fox's teachings.

I would not recommend anyone to attend friends societies in our day, I am sure there could be a few good fellowships but overall spirituality, extreme feminism, homosexuality and many other vices parade UNCHECKED in our day.

Also doctrinal apathy such on topics such as HELL! George Fox affirmed his belief in hell many times as a eternal place of punishment and suffering.

But modern quakers reject these type of ideas over "new revelation" from the light within.

sermonindex Jan 31, 2008

yeah, and without the "liberal" Friends in the vein of such people as Lucretia Mott and John Woolman, we would still have slavery, corporal punishment instead of prisons, women would not be able to vote, conscientious objectors would be imprisoned, and i could go on and on. . .

these people followed the Light with perseverance and fortitude and challenged those who claimed that the Bible was on their side: slavery is not forbidden in the Bible, women are secondary citizens, homosexuals are to be stoned etc.

you cant have the benefits and accuse the liberal philosophy from which it arose of being apostate.

bub

A

ADisciple Jan 31, 2008

bubbaguy wrote:
from what Fox said about the words of the Bible being appropriate in context of the time they were spoken, but not necessarily outside of that context, i can only put my personal feelings aside and pray that Meetings that are inclusive are following the Leadings of the Holy Spirit as made known to them.

If this is what modern "Friends" actually believe-- that we're in a different "context" these days, and so homosexuality okay now, and the Holy Spirit makes known to some groups that it is okay, and to others it is not... it is no wonder that the new-found interest in George Fox is coming from outside Quaker circles.

Fox taught no such thing, and in fact taught that the seventeenth-century Friends were in the same Light and Spirit and "context" as the early apostles were. Read and see what they had to say about this issue.

AD

sermonindex Feb 1, 2008

AD,

the different context we are in now is that we know that approximately 10% of the human population is genetically predisposed to being homosexual. God made these people this way.

the differenct context we are in today recognizes that diseases are not caused by demon posession, but that they have a biological explaination that has nothing to do with a person's spirituality.

the point that Fox made is that the words of the Bible need to be taken in the context that they were made. People at that time were confused about many things that we know better about today. For example, retarded and physically handicapped people are not to be shunned because they have a bad spirit or were cursed by God. We understand today that these people are differently abled than most and that God has a purpose and plan for them, as well.

Jesus commanded us to love one another as He loves us. And within some Monthly Meetings of the Religious Society of Friends the members have chosen to accept homosexual people as they are. And the same covenants that apply to heterosexual couples (fidelity etc.) apply. (and so sexual perversions are still unacceptable.)

as I stated before, i am not comfortable with homosexual marriages being performed in these Meetings. (the conservative Friends meeting i attend now in Minneapolis is certainly not one of these.) but still i understand and accept their reasons for doing so and i am not about to throw away the many important aspects of the Religious Society of Friends because some Friends have differing positions on this issue.

bub

sermonindex Feb 1, 2008

the different context we are in now is that we know that approximately 10% of the human population is genetically predisposed to being homosexual. God made these people this way.
the differenct context we are in today recognizes that diseases are not caused by demon posession, but that they have a biological explaination that has nothing to do with a person's spirituality.
the point that Fox made is that the words of the Bible need to be taken in the context that they were made. People at that time were confused about many things that we know better about today. For example, retarded and physically handicapped people are not to be shunned because they have a bad spirit or were cursed by God. We understand today that these people are differently abled than most and that God has a purpose and plan for them, as well.

You are not in the "same spirit" as George Fox.

T

Tears_of_joy Feb 1, 2008

bubbaguy wrote:
the different context we are in now is that we know that approximately 10% of the human population is genetically predisposed to being homosexual. God made these people this way.
the differenct context we are in today recognizes that diseases are not caused by demon posession, but that they have a biological explaination that has nothing to do with a person's spirituality.
the point that Fox made is that the words of the Bible need to be taken in the context that they were made. People at that time were confused about many things that we know better about today. For example, retarded and physically handicapped people are not to be shunned because they have a bad spirit or were cursed by God. We understand today that these people are differently abled than most and that God has a purpose and plan for them, as well.

Sir, this is very dangerous doctrine that you are believing. Consider it as a mercy from God that you are here on SI and someone can expose your doctrine. Synchronize your teachings with the word of God. You are totally off road with this.

A

ADisciple Feb 1, 2008

bubbaguy wrote:
the different context we are in now is that we know that approximately 10% of the human population is genetically predisposed to being homosexual. God made these people this way.

Bub,

You say "we know..." but this far from being proven science.

But even if I were to grant you this point, "it was not so in the beginning." God made them male and female in the beginning, and joined them together the male and the female.

After that-- and this is the thing people forget-- Adam (with Eve) fell. They of Adam's race are in a fallen condition (although the more accurate scriptural description is "dead").

"In the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die."

And THAT is what accounts for homosexuality (along with a long list of other things). They of Adam are "dead in trespasses and sins." And there is only One Answer for us all.

What say the Scriptures?

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived (mark that word, deceived): neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (ie, those who are as women), nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 5.9,10).

So, this is very clear in the Scriptures. Yet you (not George Fox) are saying we are in a different "context" now, and the words above that refer to homosexuality are to be lifted from the list, for they no longer apply. We know better now, and homosexuality is not sin. What's to prevent us from cutting any of those other things from the list, then?

I have read Fox'es writings, and he speaks clearly against homosexuality (Complete Works, Volume 6, pages 77-88).

You say that Fox taught that "the words of the Bible need to be taken in the context they were made." He taught no such thing. What he did say was that the only way the Scriptures could be correctly interpreted was to be in the same Light and Spirit in which they were written in the first place. And because He was a man of the Spirit and of the Light, he came down again and again on the apostate religious system of his day and brought the Spirit, AND the Scriptures, to bear upon them.

You say, Bub, that "people at that time were confused about many things we know better about today." (Is it necessary to suggest that the confusion of our day eclipses anything back then?) ...But Fox, who was way ahead of his day, did not add to the confusion by picking and choosing which Scriptures he wanted to accept, and which to reject.

Fox was a man of the Scriptures; you can't read his writings without marvelling at how steeped he was in the Scriptures.

As to the attitude of people in Bible days, or in Fox'es days, toward the handicapped, or the retarded... that they "had a bad spirit or were cursed by God," yes, there was a lot of ignorance about such things, ignorance due to the Darkness upon them: they did not know the True Light, and so, did not know The Scriptures in their True Light.

Let us not be as equally ignorant. Pay attention to the Spirit of God, and to the Scriptures. It's only The True Light-- and the Scriptures bear witness to Him-- that dispels darkness and ignorance.

I encourage you to follow this through. You will see, if you read carefully, that Jesus sometimes healed people of a disease just by speaking a word, and then again, sometimes He cast out a demon to heal a person of a disease. Because, Jesus had discernment, and knew whether the disease was simply resulting from the condition of fallen Adam, which also affected the body... or something further: a demon being involved. Not all disease is demonic, although some is, and Jesus the Light could see the difference. (Read and see. I can't take the time to enlarge on it here; it's easy enough to search out in the Gospels.)

...Bub, I want to conclude by mentioning something that is very beautiful to me.

Notice the verse that follows the list (it's only a partial list) Paul made of those who will not inherit the kingdom of God (in the passage I quoted above).

"And such were some of you: BUT YE ARE WASHED, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of God" (vs. 11).

This is very beautiful to me. Even in Paul's day, there were homosexuals (yes, other sinners, obviously, but homosexuals, too, just as obviously) who had come in contact with the living Christ because of the SPIRIT OF CHRIST that was there in the Church... and they had turned to Jesus, and had been washed from their sins in Blood in the Stream of the Spirit of God. What joy! There is not a human condition however sinful that our Lord Jesus Christ, in His sacrifice on the Cross, has not reached into, and redeemed.

"For the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus hath made me FREE from the Law of sin and death."

Is it... You're not telling me... Are there actually such words? There's a Law that makes me FREE from the Law of sin and death? Can I have actually read that? Is that actually TRUE?

His love has no measure.

If modern "friends" so hate the homosexuals as to teach them that they are okay in their condition... this knows nothing of the love of Christ for them: CHRIST JESUS, the Son of God's LOVE, who revealed the love of God in the Cross, redeeming us from sin and death (the state of sin and death we are in) and bringing us into this wondrous Kingdom of Life he has for us... "the Kingdom of the Son of His love," which, you get even a glimpse of this beautiful Kingdom, and it just... you are just undone!

And you would exclude the homosexual from THAT?

Why do you hate them? (I am not saying "you" personally, Bub, but those who think they are advocating FOR them when they try to persuade them their condition is not sin.)

They, and we, whoever we are who turn to the Lord Jesus Christ, are WASHED, sanctified, justified, "in the Name of the Lord Jesus...

"...AND BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD."

The washing they need, we all need, is in the Spirit of God. Are we giving the Spirit of God His LORDSHIP in the Church? All that is in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and all the wealth of that... is made real in our lives BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

And we Christians, who love the homosexuals... it is because we love them that we want them to know their need for the Salvation of Christ, and have a part in that beautiful Kingdom.

And if we love them, we know it just doesn't do what needs to be done... to merely tell them this is wrong in God's sight, and we stand against it and them. Too often there has been a kind of attitude amongst us that turns the gays dead cold against Christ.

It's my opinion that the reason there is such a strong expression of homosexuality in out day is because of the lukewarm, backslidden, apostate condition of the Church. That's the way it was in Lot's day. That's the way it was in that horrible story in the book of the Judges, when there was no King in Israel, and every man did what was right in their own eyes.

It seems that when God's people are in a weakened state, homosexuality grows very strong.

The homosexuals need to see The Real Christ, and they are not seeing Him. It is not enough that Christ is in Heaven. He must be HERE, His Spirit and PRESENCE in His Church, if we are to reach fallen men with the love of God.

They need to repent. The homosexuals need to repent.

But if we are going to see that, we need to repent first.

AD

sermonindex Feb 1, 2008

AD, a good post.

when we understand that our own sins are as bad as any, we can realize that demonizing others (homosexuals) because we don't understand or are fearful of their sins is a waste of time and hypocritical.

Paul's list is way too short. Since we began killing and eating animals (the "forbidden fruit" by my reconning, see Genesis 1:29) our path has been one of destruction, violence, war, torture, etc. etc. etc.

living life within this path itself is enough to make people lose their minds and become deranged. but i doubt that homosexuality came about because of the fall of man. the reason is that it is also present in the animal kingdom. did they also fall? willfully disobey God? i don't think so.

The Good News of Jesus and our salvation is the Truth that I get from the Bible. from our study of geology, space, chemistry, biology (genetics), physics, etc. come other truths that need to be considered, as well. None of these will ever contradict the Good News, but they may well amend Biblical stories of our origins and place in the universe. The implications and accounts of these OT stories of our relationship with our Creator, though, are not undone by scientific discovery.

If Adam was an individual or whether Adam generically means men does not change the fact of original sin and disobedience. The details are different; the outcome for people today is the same.

this may seem strange, but i am content with the Bible whether or not it is inerrant, whether or not some stories are factual and others are parable. in the end, either way the message is the same: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and love your neighbor as yourself.

homosexuals can read the Bible and decide for themselves how they should live. what i am tired of is them being whipping posts for righteous hypocrits. moreover i don't think accusing them of their sins will change them. it is part of their nature.

like many things in life, the answer to this quandary is not clear. we can only muddle through. and i think those Quakers who are being inclusive of gays are doing the best that they are able to.

bub

A

ADisciple Feb 1, 2008

bubbaguy wrote:
like many things in life, the answer to this quandary is not clear. we can only muddle through. and i think those Quakers who are being inclusive of gays are doing the best that they are able to.

Bub,

Thanks for your response, but I will have to say you and I are "not on the same page" here. We definitely don't have to "muddle through" if we are willing to humble ourselves before the Truth, and agree with HIM.

"In Thy light shall we see light" (Ps. 36.9).

...I'll leave this with you. I don't think I'm feeling much inclined to pursue this thread further.

AD