The law

Preacher, you are correct. Many within Christianity have gone away from the commandments of our Father, using the excuse that we are 'under grace'. I prefer to use the word Torah in place of 'law', since this word has become misunderstood by many.

Very clearly, Paul respected and observed the commandments of God... I will post a few verses from Romans alone :

"...For it is not those who hear the Torah who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the Torah who will be declared righteous." (Rom1:13)

“…What advantage then has the Jews? Or what profit is there of circumcision? Much in every way, chiefly because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.” (Rom 3:1-2)

"...Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through the same faith; Do we then abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the Torah." (Rom 3:30-31)

"...What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, except by the Torah; for I had not known lust, except the Torah had said; Thous shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7)

“…Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good” (Rom 7:12

Clearly many have twisted the words of Paul to suit the greasy grace doctrine.

Also, I would ask the question of anyone who thinks that the commandments of our Father have been abolished or abrogated, "Which one of His commandments would you not want to walk according to?"

David said: 'O how I love Thy commandments' ... 'they are my daily delight'

Yeshua kept and fulfilled His Father's commandments, He did not abolish them!

Shalom

Oy Vey, we're being invaded on the Sabbath?

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about a hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

You are correct JG. It is the love and patience of our Father that brings us to the Kingdom, through the free gift of the Messiah.

However, let us not use this as a pretext to turn away from the commandments and instructions which He has lovingly provided for our edification and ultimate good. Shalom

I don't believe in pulling a verse from here and there and making it say something that is not Complete from an Author -

So for now - Hebrews 10 and 11.

P.S. This is far from a "greasy grace" Website - in case you hadn't noticed when you signed on.
Hope you'll read enough here to appreciate that.

Reposted below. :-)

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi everyone,

Strider100 and Preacher777, if I could suggest, it seems to me to be right to introduce ourselves somewhat before starting topics here.

[color=9966ff] Sure Chris ... check out my profile.

However, I am a believer in the grace of God through the free gift of Messiah, Yeshua. I also believe that none of His instructions or commandments have been 'abolished' or done away with. As our brother Paul so aptly puts it ... "God Forbid!" [/color]

Strider100, you had asked about what law we would not want to walk according to, and also you had qouted David as saying how the Lord's commandments were daily his delight.

It brought to mind this,

[b][color=000000]And the man that committeth adultery with [i]another[/i] man's wife, [i]even he[/i] that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. [/color][/b]

- Leviticus chapter 20 verse 10(KJV)

As for me, I don't think I would like to have answered Amen to this one for sure:

[color=9966ff] Is this a commandment that we should abolish then? :-(

Chris, I can understand one's reluctance to face the penalty for breaking this commandment. However, one doesn't have to, since Messiah Yeshua has already paid that price. halleluYah! [/color]

[b][color=000000] Cursed [i]be[/i] he that confirmeth not [i]all[/i] the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. [/color][/b]

- Deuteronomy 27:26(KJV)

[color=9966ff] Chris, remember the law of God is perfect altogether. It would be foolish to throw it out because we failed to walk in it. Messiah came to take upon Himself the penalty or 'curse' for breaking this law. Now we are free to embrace his ways, knowing that we have a great High Priest who we can come to in times of trouble.

"More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold." [/color]

Miccah wrote:

Strider100 wrote:

Now we are free to embrace his ways, knowing that we have a great High Priest who we can come to in times of trouble.

[color=0000ff] Just repeating scripture. :-)

The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble. (Ps9:9)

God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in times of trouble. (Ps 46:1)

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Yeshua the Son of God. (Heb 4:14) [/color]

Come to in times of trouble? You know that you are talking about The Lord and God Jesus Christ, the saviour? Not just someone we come to when things get bad, but come to out of reverence for Him being God.

[color=0000ff] Not sure what you're asking here.[/color]

Jesus being God in itself is enough reason to come to Jesus regardless of situations. God alone is worthy of all worship and praise.

Hi Mike,

I did not know that it was a requirement to 'introduce' oneself. I have gone ahead and done that.

Just to set the record straight. I have not started any topics yet. I was replying to something posted.

Shalom

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi everyone,

Strider100, welcome to the forums. [color=0000ff]Strider: Thankyou :-) [/color]

I would like to post something first from your introduction in the Welcome section just to have it in view, I hope it will be alright:

[color=0000ff] Strider: No Problem [/color]

You said there

"I also believe that all of His words and instructions are precious and for our edification, and none of His instructions (other than the temple and sacrificial instructions) have been 'abolished' or done away with."

Strider, you said this

"Chris, remember the law of God is perfect altogether. It would be foolish to throw it out because we failed to walk in it."

But Strider, wouldn't it rather be foolish to think that we could break up the Law, or Covenant, which God made between Himself and the Children of Israel into parts and [b]it still retain it's perfection[/b]?

[color=0000ff] Strider: I do not recommend breaking up the Covenant into parts. That Covenant was renewed (not broken up or abolished) with the coming of Yeshua the Messiah. [/color]

For instance, Moses commanded that male children [b]must[/b] be circumcised(Lev 12:1-3)

Paul, the Apostle of Jesus Christ the mediator of the New Covenant, wrote this

[b][color=000000] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. - Galatians 5:2-3(KJV)[/color][/b]
[color=0000ff] Strider: If one reads this passage in context, it will be seen that Paul is reinforcing the teaching that you can not earn your salvation by working at it. However, it can be seen from other passages that Paul upholds the law. [b](e.g Rom 3:30-31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.)[/b] [/color]

Strider, also you said

"Messiah came to take upon Himself the penalty or 'curse' for breaking this law. Now we are free to embrace his ways,..."

By His ways, do you mean the commandments which He gave to the Apostles(See Matthew 28:18-20, John 17:8, Acts 1:2)
[color=0000ff] Strider: The commandments which He gave the apostles are no different than those found in the Tanakh (Hebrew scriptures) .. In fact any time the 'Scripture' is mentioned in the N.T ... it is referring to the Tanakh (misrepresented as the Old Testament) [/color]

[b]or[/b]

the Law and Covenant which God made with Children of Israel through Moses(See Exodus chapter 24 and 34:27-28)?

Those who were under the law of Moses he sprinkled with blood, saying

[b][color=000000]...Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. [/color][/b]- Exodus 24:8(KJV)
[color=0000ff] Strider: The blood of Messiah has been shed and has replaced the need for blood sacrifice. This was a foreshadowing of what was to come and the Renewed Covenant. [/color]

But Whose words are we commanded to hear now?

[color=0000ff] Strider: The words of Messiah echo those of His Father. There should be no confusion here. [/color]

What was spoken from Heaven to them that saw Christ, and Moses, and Elijah,(Moses being the mediator of the Law and Elijah the prophet, having both here then the law and the prophets)but what did the voice from Heaven say

[b][color=000000] And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. [/color][/b] - Mark 9:7(KJV) [color=0000ff] Strider: I agree. Hear Him, for He echoes the words of His Father, which are contained in the Scriptures. [/color]

And should we then as Peter suggested, build a tent for Moses and Elijah? [color=0000ff] Strider: LOL ... Chris, If you feel like the boy scout thing, have at it, old chap! [/color]

[b][color=000000]And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. [/color][/b]
- Mark 9:8(KJV)

What do you think? [color=0000ff]

Strider: I think we are going to have a lot of fun :-) [/color]

Chris