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We need to cover head covering

N
narrowpath Feb 11, 2008

I admit that this is not the first post and perhaps not the last about this topic.

In this audio verse-by-verse bible study Zac Poonen explains the head covering in 1. Cor 11 1-16 in a masterful way.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=16268

I recently convinced my wife and daughter about it and they practise it since. It caused me and my wife to take a deep look into these issues, and I too had closer look into my responsibility as the head of the household under Christ. It was quite a discovery for me.

Our church does not practise head covering although some women do. For me head covering is the outward display of an inward conviction about godly authority. The reason we have so many objections and find this commandmend so difficult to introduce in our churches is I think is because of the confusion Satan has caused in the perception of true manhood and womenhood in the world and in the church. Head covering seems to be a small and "nasty" commandment to obey so that many think it is not that important. If you practise it you may quickly be branded as legalistic and narrowminded. I think our attitude to head covering reveals a lot about our understanding of godly authority.

Poonen debunks the typical 2 arguments against it which are the believe that the women's natural hair is her covering during the worship service and the other argument that this was only for the first century (Another form of cessationism, isn't it?)
Paul ends this teaching with a strong statement:
1. Cor 11:16 If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.

Philip

E
enid Feb 11, 2008

All I can say is let battle commence.

God bless.

sermonindex Feb 11, 2008

Oh boy... I can see already whats on the menu this week... [b]legalism[/b].

I posted the following just a few minutes ago on the Sabbath thread... and it applied here too, since your relying more on Poonen than scripture:

[i]Just an observation here... but why dont people on here argue their points using scripture anymore? Everyone quotes Spurgeon, Pink, Pratney... etc... as tho their words were God breathed.

I love Spurgeon, but if something he said doesnt jive w/ scripture, I'll dump Spurgeon in a heartbeat.[/i] (Same is to be said for Poonen or whoever your favorite teacher is)

[i]This is the same type of mentality that got me caught up in the Charismatic/WOF movememnt when I was first saved. I listened to mens opinions about the Bible instead of studying to show myself approved. But then... I was newly saved and very immature in the faith.

Just wondering...[/i]

Krispy

sermonindex Feb 11, 2008

Oh boy... I can see already whats on the menu this week... legalism.
Yep, the curse of Christianity.

sermonindex Feb 11, 2008

I do want to point out that if someone is wholly convinced in their heart that they should wear a head covering, then I say God bless you. By all means, wear it! If you were convinced you should, and you didnt, then you would sinning against your own conscience.

The trouble comes in when we try to convince others that they should as well, and we make a law out of it... which I have seen happen over and over and over again with subjects such as this.

Krispy

M
Miccah Feb 11, 2008

We practice head coverings as well, although I have to admit it is for a totally different reason. It was -15f with a -35f windchill yesterday. It is now a balmy -7f out. :-) :-) :-)

In all reality, if this works for you and your household, go for it. If yo uare doing this to show a reverence for the Lord, great. If your doing this to show your reverence to man, not so great. Regardless, I am sure that you understand that you and your family are not bound by headcoverings in order to be a believer.

sermonindex Feb 11, 2008

In all reality, if this works for you and your household, go for it. If yo uare doing this to show a reverence for the Lord, great. If your doing this to show your reverence to man, not so great. Regardless, I am sure that you understand that you and your family are not bound by headcoverings in order to be a believer.

And thats pretty much what I was trying to say as well. Amen.

But the title of this thread hints at legalism... "We [b]Need[/b] A Head Covering".

And scripture clearly says "no we dont".

Krispy

D
davym Feb 11, 2008

Can I just say briefly that head covering and 1 Corinthians 11 has to do with headship. i.e.


[i]3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
(1 Cor 11 v3)[/i]

This principle is the key in my opinion. It ties in with Paul's other teaching about a woman's position in the church. In fact it goes back to the Garden of Eden.

[i]11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

(1 Tim 2 v 11-14)[/i]

In my experience this teaching has become unpopular which is unfortunate because it is the way God has it and His way is obviously the best way for all of us. There has been many reasons for this namely

1. Abuse of position by men.
2. The intrusion of liberal thinking in churches.
3. Picking and choosing scriptures we like.

I could go on but don't mean to bore you. This is not a sexist argument. Men and women are equal. It's all about our [b]position[/b] in the Body of Christ.

[i]11Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

1 Cor 11 v11-12[/i]

Should women wear hats (or other form of head covering)? I think for a born again believing woman she could consider this a privilege and not a sign that she is beneath her male counterparts.

sermonindex Feb 11, 2008

Amen Krispy.

If I might add as well.

If your doing it because you think it will make you righteous before God, our righteousness is not obtained by what we do, but WHO we trust in. If any righteousness comes from us, it's a result of what He is doing in us, and not by our will.

But regarding "head covering". Your wife's headcovering is YOU. As men, our head covering is Christ, and Christ head is God.

It was Eve who stepped out of line in the garden, therefore she needs to submit to her husband. It has nothing to do with clothes, it all has to do with a submission. A wife can put on all the clothes to "act" the appearance of a submitted woman but in her heart she might be rebellious.

"The Letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life".

If she can wear it without attaching righteousness to it, by all means, be blessed. If not, then you've fallen from grace.

Somethings to consider carefully.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Feb 11, 2008

Hello...

Recently, my wife and I were discussing the concept of physical "head coverings" by various individuals. We don't believe in or practice such a thing, but we were interested in the rationale behind such a practice.

Are there any other verses, outside of the single passage in I Corinthians, upon which this doctrinal persuasion is based? Are there any examples from the Bible (old or new Covenants) in which we see women required to wear such things?

Anyway, thanks (in advance) for the help!

:-)

N
narrowpath Feb 11, 2008


May I suggest everyone to listen to Zac Poonen's Bible study first to see where I/he is coming from.
He really explains it well.

I am either right or wrong, I do not think this truth is up to our own conscience such as drinking wine, eating meet or keeping certains days.

Thanks,
Philip

sermonindex Feb 11, 2008

"But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering."

I don't get this. Paul's comments say that a woman's hair IS her covering and that it is a shame only if her head is shorn and uncovered.

no place does it say that a woman who has hair on her head should be covered.

bub

D
davym Feb 11, 2008

"But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.

I don't get this. Paul's comments say that a woman's hair IS her covering and that it is a shame only if her head is shorn and uncovered.
"

Following your rationale, verse 4 of 1 Cor 11 states

[i]4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
[/i]

This would mean a man would have to have his head shaven to pray. ???

M
mission101 Feb 11, 2008

So does this mean that everything that is not agreed upon by all Christianity is Legalism??
I do believe the doctrin of the head covering is in scripture. It is an outward sign of an inward submission to authority. It is based in 1 Corinthians 11. One thing that really spoke to me is that if you were to try and replace the word covering with another word such as hair or husband or father of a daughter the verses don't make any sense!

I am wondering...Have you ever taken the time to examine a subject from someone else's point of view; or will those of us who are labeled as Legalists always be trodden down for believing things that are vague to the greater part of Christendom??

One last thought, the man is the head of the woman and she is the glory of man... wouldn't we want the glory of man to covered?

sermonindex Feb 11, 2008

So does this mean that everything that is not agreed upon by all Christianity is Legalism??

No, thats not what I said at all... it becomes legalism when we take something such as head coverings and make that the focus and the measure by which we judge spirituality.

There is nothing wrong with a woman wearing a head covering, especially if she is doing so out of pure heart toward the Lord and her husband.

But many times it becomes a stumbling block because those who do wear head coverings can sometimes begin to look down upon those who do not.

And the same can happen for those who dont wear them.

The focus and measure of our spirituality... of our faith... is Jesus.

Period.

Anything else is an idol.

I do believe the doctrin of the head covering is in scripture. It is an outward sign of an inward submission to authority.

... and in the OT that was all part of what the Old Covenant was about. Head coverings, circumcism, etc etc. It was all symbolic outward type stuff. And didnt Jesus come against that stuff IF there was nothing inside?

Jesus called the pharisees "white washed tombs"... beautiful on the outside but filled with dead mens' bones. In otherwards, Jesus wasnt interested in what the outside looked like, He wanted to know what the INSIDE looked like.

I know women who wear head coverings, and for the most part they seem spiritual and submissive and sweet... and I'm sure they really are. HOWEVER, I've known a few that I wouldnt give you 2 cents for. (Not that I'm in the business of buying women! You know what I mean tho...)

On the outside they have all the signs and symbols of submission and spirituality... but on the inside they stink.

Kinda like when I make my 4 yr old son sit down at the dinner table instead of standing in his chair. He may be sitting on the outside... but I can tell by his face he's still standing on the inside.

Jesus did away with all that outward junk. I'm not talking about dressing modestly and humbly. Scripture does have a lot to say about those things. But we dont have to wear special head coverings and what not in order to be in a right relationship with God.

You certainly wouldnt demand that a 35 yr old man who just saved to go get a circumcism, would you? That was an outward sign just like a head covering is. Well, why then would you insist that Christian women need to wear a head covering?

Besides, there is no way you can get from scripture that a NT woman is to wear head coverings. Paul is very plain about the whole issue, and Bubba nailed it. Go back and read his post.

Now, as said before... I'm NOT against head coverings. It's none of my business if someone other than my wife wants to wear one. But you can not demand that of others.

May I suggest everyone to listen to Zac Poonen's Bible study first to see where I/he is coming from.
He really explains it well.

As for hearing Poonen's discussion about it... I respect the man, but I couldnt care less what he has to say on the subject. I care about what scripture says. And I would love to hear [b]YOUR[/b] thoughts and impressions about it instead... since you're hear and you're who we are talking to.

Rather than bring this topic to the forefront of the forum, and then defer to Poonen when we have questions we want to ask of you, why not just tell us what [b]YOU[/b] think?

Krispy

sermonindex Feb 11, 2008

I am wondering...Have you ever taken the time to examine a subject from someone else's point of view; or will those of us who are labeled as Legalists always be trodden down for believing things that are vague to the greater part of Christendom??

I see you're new. Welcome to SI! Glad you're here.

Before you begin to label everyone and condemn us for things we havent done or said, I would recommend you avail yourself of the literally THOUSANDS of different discussions that we have all had with each other over the [b]years[/b].

You're welcome to join in, and I'm looking forward to talking to you... but dont start out this way, my friend. You dont know any of us yet. At least give us time to make you hate us! :-) (kidding of course)

And it might surprise you to know that I have been labeled a legalist as well... and I've been labeled the opposite of a legalist. I guess its all in the eye of the beholder... kinda like a log.

Krispy

sermonindex Feb 11, 2008

In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things love.

Head coverings is hardly an essential, my brothers and sisters.

Krispy

M
mission101 Feb 11, 2008

Well I agree with your statments about taking doctrins and using them to make ourselves look more spiritual than others. We should only look at each person as being in Christ. Like if you were to draw a big circle and put the God's perfect will as a dot in the center everybody in that circle could be considered in Christ. some might be on the left and some on the right but we are all IN CHRIST.


I'm sure it looks to the rest of the SI community that I'm starting off in a very bold condemning way...IT was not meant that way at all and if anyone out there is scared to death of my first post don't be... I just thought I'd join in the fray so to speak. It will take some knocking around before I learn how to say things and how not to. A little toe stepping on from each of us is good. I really should do this the formal way and hopefully I will get to before I do to much more posting.

~ The new kid on the block

D
davym Feb 11, 2008

Head coverings is hardly an essential, my brothers and sisters.

OK, but it is pleasing to our Lord and Saviour because it reflects headship. If this is ignored then the outward expression is that we are ignoring headship which is rebellion against God in our hearts and this is serious and can't be written off as a non-essential!

sermonindex Feb 11, 2008

I'm sure it looks to the rest of the SI community that I'm starting off in a very bold condemning way...IT was not meant that way at all and if anyone out there is scared to death of my first post don't be... I just thought I'd join in the fray so to speak. It will take some knocking around before I learn how to say things and how not to. A little toe stepping on from each of us is good. I really should do this the formal way and hopefully I will get to before I do to much more posting.

Mission, dont sweat it! Your post wasnt that bad... I just wanted to make sure we're on the same page!

Like I said, I'm glad you're hear, and trust me... my mouth knows the taste of my foot quite well, and I hardly think you'll come close to saying the wrong thing at the wrong time like I have! lol...

Welcome!

Krispy

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