Is God the creator / author of sin?

Does God make people retarded, riddle their bodies with cancer, or give them any number of terrible diseases…or is it just the result of the fall?

If God is sovereign, could he not have everyone born into a wonderfully healthy body?

Did God not know before the Earth was formed that few would be in heaven?
Yet, He created the world.

It appears to me God can, and does, what He wants…and I will not understand all of it this side of heaven.

We have a God that is bigger than us. Why should we even think we could comprehend all of His ways?

Just to let you know...I am not a Calvinist. But I have enjoyed this study as of late here on SI. I have also been reading much this last month. Spurgeon, Warfield, Sproul, etc…and though I am not fully convinced in all areas, I have discovered that as a child those who taught me about Calvinism did not know anything about it.

There are parts of reformed theology that have been dismissed by many…that I see in scripture.

Does everything have to be completely reconciled…or is there room for Godly paradox?

I believe A.W. Tozer was correct when he said," God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say, "0 Lord, Thou knowest." Those things belong to the deep and mysterious profound of God's omniscience. Prying into them may make theologians, but it will never make saints."

I must take the easy road on this and agree with this quote:

The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say, "0 Lord, Thou knowest." Those things belong to the deep and mysterious profound of God's omniscience. Prying into them may make theologians, but it will never make saints."

simply because I am unlearned in this issue. But could we not be satisfied with this quote and cease from trying to understand. I could say, "yes," but many won't.

When a woman stands up in an assembly and with trembling tells a story of her son perishing with a horrible disease and how her husband beats her...would it be enough to respond with this quote? Would it ease her pain, take away her fear?

i have to consider that the above statement is the final statement, that it is in fact the Lord our God who knows. No matter the determination we make on the issue.

So is it safe for me to remain ignorant on this issue?

All lot of people have a very narrow minded view of God. The say God would never do this because he is love, when we should say Love is not this because it is not Godly.
To answer is God the author of sin you must start from Aquinas' view of pure actuality. God posses all things from beginning and end, he is infinitely wiser than us and nothing is out of his control.
God created Satan, and in Job we see that Satan can only go as far as God will let him. Again Jesus tells peter that Satan wants to sift him like wheat but HE prays for God to prevent this.
If Sin did not come from the creator than there is an outside source creating things that is not under God's Control.
If you Say God did not create sin, than you automatically have 2 or more creating gods. The concept of Good and Evil opposing each other comes from ZorthoAstroism - the religion of the Babylonian wise men (MAGI).
Let us not forget the scriptures which tell us that "even though you meant it for evil, God meant it for Good." or "All things work together for the good of those who love God, and are called according to His Purpose (ELECT).

Just because something is from a Calvinist Doctrine does not condemn it to be false, that is a Genetic Fallacy like saying he is wrong because he is black or white.
Hope this was helpful.

Ergun Canner said, “I don’t understand election, but if the Bible says you’re elect…you’re elect. I don’t understand electricity, but I don’t sit in the dark.”

The Bible is clear that some are elect. I also see what appears to be some sort of responsibility for the believer as well. I’m not sure this is so easy to reconcile.

If I may quote John MacArthur (not endorsing all his views):

“The problem is not whether you believe those. The problem is how you harmonize them, right? You know how you harmonize them? No, you don't. You don't know how to harmonize them. Because there is no way to harmonize them. And, the way that I like to illustrate it is this, Is Jesus God or man? Both. Is He all man? 100 % man? 100 % God? How can He be 200 %? It is a paradox.”

Maybe he has a point.

Either way, I accept that what is in the Bible is true…even if I cannot fully understand it.

I don’t believe it is time to end my investigation just yet…I will continue to read.

I will get Hunt’s book. May I suggest that you get

What is Reformed Theology?: Understanding the Basics by R.C. Sproul.

This is not a book defending Reformed theology…it is a description. Don’t think you know all that is needed about reformed theology until you read this book…it is very enlightening. There are several Arminians that gave the book a good review as well. Check out the reviews at Amazon.

God bless you brother on your journey of greater understanding.

This is a really interesting topic that has been on my mind lately. I'm reading through the OT and a couple thoughts and questions that I have are:

1. Death came into the world because sin and the resultant curse-Isn't GOD the one who cursed man? Wouldn't that mean that death comes out of the curse and therefore God?

2. I have heard many say over the years that God doesn't make sickness or make people sick, that it is a result of the curse. If that's the case,
then how do you explain all of the OT verses where God says that he will make His people sick as punishment? Deuteronomy 28:27,Numbers 5:27,Deuteronomy 28:61 and many others. Also he made the Egyptians sick(plauge of boils) as punishment.

3. In response to your question Krispy, didn't God create all things? Is there something (sin) in this world that is beyond God, beyond His creation? I know that Satan can't create anything so is sin outside the realm of creation?

I don't have any kind of agenda. I am honestly interested in learning more about our Awesome God.

In order for there to be a choice there must be at least two options…
God or….what?
Good or….What?

Darkness is the absence of light. Similarly, evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

One thought - Christ bore our sin on the cross i.e. all sin is gone as far as God is concerned. As Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world we must remember that this was an eternal sacrifice. What I mean to say is this - at no point in eternity was sin not dealt with. God sees us through His Son, His eternal Son, His sinless Son.

I don't have any kind of agenda. I am honestly interested in learning more about our Awesome God.

Amen brother, Amen!!!

I too have no agenda outside of learning more about Him. I thank God that He is in control...even when I don't understand.

Here is John Calvin's own view on this subject. I'm quoting from his "Institutes," Book I, Ch. 14, Part 16.).

(By the way, I am not a Calvinist. In some things I don't think Calvin was seeing from God's perspective. But what he says here is completely scriptural, and true.)

"But as the Devil was created by God, we must remark, that this wickedness which we attribute to his nature, is not from creation, but from corruption. For whatever evil quality he has, he has acquired by his defection and fall. And of this the Scripture apprizes us; lest, believing him to have come from God, just as he now is, we should ascribe to God Himself that which is in direct opposition to Him. For this reason Christ declares, that Satan, 'when he speaketh a lie, speaketh of his own;' and adds the reason-- 'because he abode not in the truth.' When he says that he abode not in the truth, he certainly implies that he had once been in it; and when he calls him the father of a lie, he precludes his imputing to God the depravity of his nature, which originated wholly from himself. Though these things are delivered in a brief and rather obscure manner, yet they are abundantly sufficient to vindicate the majesty of God from every calumny...."

AD

I'll play :-D

This is from the Westminster Confession, and I think it deals well with this-

[i]Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit.1 [b]This their sin God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.[/b]2

1. Gen. iii. 13; 2 Cor. xi. 3.
2. Rom. xi. 32.

By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God,1 and so became dead in sin,2 and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.3

1. Gen. iii. 6–8; Eccles. vii. 29; Rom. iii. 23.
2. Gen. ii. 17; Eph. ii. 1; [Am. ed. Rom. v. 12].
3. Tit. i. 15; Gen. vi. 5; Jer. xvii. 9; Rom. iii. 10–19.

From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,1 and wholly inclined to all evil,2 do proceed all actual transgressions.3

1. Rom. v. 6; vii. 18; viii. 7; Col. i. 21; [Am. ed. John iii. 6].
2. Gen. vi. 5; viii. 21; Rom. iii. 10–12.
3. James i. 14, 15; Eph. ii. 2, 3; Matt. xv. 19.[/i]

So now we need to step back and understand that NOTHING happens in this world apart from God's allowing it to happen. God knew Satan would fall when He created him, and God knew that Satan would bring sin into mankind.

However, Christ and His crucifiction were part of God's plan before the foundation of the Earth. It is as if in God's mind all of His work was accomplished before anything was created.

If we say that God did not know that Satan would rebel, and bring sin into humanity, then we have an unbiblical god, and this is generally the slippery slope that goes the way of open theism.

We do not have the right to ever judge God based upon our sinful nature. Even we as Christians have a remaining old Adam that corrupts even the most spiritual things we do. So when we come to something like this, we must tread carefully.

Here are three facts that must be reckoned with-
1)God is holy
2)God is omnipotent
3)Sin exists

Better to just accept the fact that God allowed sin to come into the human race, but He is not the cause of it at all, Satan is.

I didnt ordain that my kid will rebel, but I knew it was going to happen.

Of course, because you did not create your child, God did. He created Him for His purposes.

I agree though that God cannot be the author of Sin. He is too Holy to look upon, much less create sin. This does not mean that He cannot allow sin to take place. Whoever commits the sin if fully responsible for that sin whether God ordained it or not.

This is not to anyone in particular.

I need help with this one…not sure I grasp it…clear as mud actually.

Question:

If my dog had been bitten five times by a rattlesnakes because every time he sees one he always messes with it…and I clearly see one out the door…and I, with this knowledge, let my dog outside…

I guess it ultimately is the dog’s choice…but I knew what he was going to do.

Am I not accountable? I mean it was clearly the dogs choice, but did I not ordain it…knowing in advance what would take place?

If I have true irrefutable knowledge of a tragic event…and the ability to stop it…and don’t…I allow it. Yes?

I know this is an extremely poor example…please look past that and help me understand more clearly this fore-knowledge, fore-ordained idea.

Thank you all in advance.

Not really... foreknowledge is quite different from fore-ordain.

How so? Usually, the words used for "foreknow" are verbs not nouns, so it is something God is doing and not something God has.

God gave us a choice to obey or disobey (choose you this day whom you will serve), but understood and knew we would choose the wrong thing.

That verse you quoted though is not to unbelievers, or in its context to the nations surrounding Israel. It is to God's covenant people who had experienced His revelation and were in rebellion to Him. I know it sounds good to throw out to argue free-will, but that's not what it is describing.

God still remains completely untouched by sin though. He is not the One who is sinning.

Consider for a moment perhaps the greatest sin ever committed in the History of man, the crucifiction of Christ. But what does God say about this in His Word-

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

This was God's plan, to use the sinful acts of men to redeem His people. Did God ordain the crucifiction?

And yes here is where the Greek word for "foreknowledge" is indeed a noun, and it is used twice in the NT, once here, and again in 1 Peter 1:2.

There is also-
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For [b]to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done[/b].

So, again in the Apostles mind, there was no problem in seeing God's hand in the sinful events of men, while also understanding that God uses what men mean for evil for His glory just as int eh story of Joseph in Genesis. Did God know that Joseph's brothers would sell him into slavery(sin)? But what was the purpose of this, God's glory in fulfilling His promise.

Here is a good verse to ponder while thinking through these issues-
Psalms 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: [b]he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.[/b]

tj,

I think it is would be best to say that God is not held accountable by the same standards that we are. He created us therefore He can do with us what He wants. I think the best explanation of this mind boggling doctrine is found in Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology book. He basically says that even though God ordains things to happen, the person who does those things is still responsible.

For example, Judas Iscariot was responsbile for his betrayal of Christ, but God ordained it did he not? What about Pilot and the jews? Look at Acts 4 down around verse 23
When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices ptogether to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, qwho made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,3 said by the Holy Spirit,
r“ ‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and sthe rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his tAnointed’4—
27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your uholy servant Jesus, vwhom you anointed, both wHerod and xPontius Pilate, along ywith the Gentiles and zthe peoples of Israel, 28 ato do whatever your hand and byour plan had predestined to take place. 29 And now, Lord, clook upon their threats and grant to your servants5 to continue to sp
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ac 4:23-29). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.