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Is Jesus the Creator or Creation ?

sermonindex Feb 17, 2008

Col 1:15-17

[color=000099][i]"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."[/color][/i]


I noticed that this verse was used in the thread Goodbye to SI as a trinitarian proof text. It was called [i][b]"One of the most telling verses in all of Scripture".[/i][/b]

(Not sure how it ended up there. You guys sure did love sister Wildbranch.) :-)

In connection with this passage, I'd like to make a few points:

1. 'Image of the invisible God', does not mean God, but rather the [i]image of God[/i]. Man was created in the image of God. We are told 'man ought not to cover his head as he is the image and glory of God'. Therefore Jesus was [i][b]the image of God[/i][/b], and not God the Almighty, Himself.

2. 'The firstborn of every creature'. Jesus is here identified as the 'creature' and not the Creator. This ties up with other passages of Jesus being the first-born such as Rev 3:14 ' And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the [i]beginning of the creation of God[/i]. [b]Clearly not the Creator, but the beginning of the creation of God[/b].

3. "By him all things consist" -

[b]'by':[/b] [color=000099][i]Strong's No. 1722 - From the Greek word, [b]en.[/b] Meanings - in, at, on, by, about, after, against, almost, altogether, among, as, before, between, by all means, for sake of, because of, through, when, where, etc. [/color][/i]

Translation bias will determine which word to pick here. It is very clear from the rest of scripture that the correct translation for this verse should be "For him all things consist" and not "By him" ... The Father is the creator of all things and the Son is the creation. To call the Son the 'creator' is confusion at best!

4. "He is before all things".

[i][b]'before':[/i][/b] [color=000099][i]Strong's No. 4253 - From the Greek word, [b]pro.[/b] Meanings - before, above, superior to, or ever.[/color][/i]

Jesus is superior to all things created - Jesus has preeminence in all things. We see clearly here, that the translation 'before' is misleading in that it has the meaning of 'superiority' and not 'pre-existence'.

5. "First-born from the dead". Since Jesus is the very first man to be resurrected to immortality, that makes him THE first human to be resurrected. And is now seated at the right hand of the Father. HalleluYah

Thank you.

Stephen


S
sojourner7 Feb 17, 2008

"but in these last days He [God] has spoken to
us by His Son, who He [God] appointed heir of
all things, through whom He also created the
worlds. He [Jesus] is the reflection of God's
glory and the exact imprint of God's very being,
and He [Jesus] sustains all things by His
powerful word." Here as in the verses in
Colossians that you refer to, Jesus is described
as the Creator and Sustainer of all life and all
things.

M
Miccah Feb 17, 2008


Another Deity post??? Do you REALLY want to start this up again?

Bless you brother.

sermonindex Feb 17, 2008

What Jesus said about himself:

Jesus said an awful lot about himself. He said things about himself that a first century Jew must have found very puzzling, if not shocking.

He claimed to exist before his birth in Bethlehem

Jesus spoke of the glory he shared with his Father "before the world began" (John 17:5). He existed before Abraham (John 8:58). On the occasion on which he said this he was nearly stoned for blasphemy. He came from "above", whereas his hearers were from "below". His hearers were "of this world", whereas he was not (John 8:23). He came from heaven (John 3:13; 6:33-35). There are about 20 instances where he claimed to have been sent into this world by his Father (e.g. Luke 10:16; John 4:34; 5:37,38).

He claimed a unique relationship with God his Father

The "Jews of Jesus' day would have considered it improper, indeed scandalous, for a person to use such initmate titles of God"

Jesus constantly spoke of God as HIS Father (about 120 times in John alone). Often he called him "my father" (Matthew 15:13; 18:10; Luke 2:49, etc). In one instance he addressed God by the Aramaic term "abba" (Mark 14:36) which a Jewish child would use of their dad. The Jewish scholar, Professor J. Jeremias, has drawn attention to the rarity of the word "Father" in Jewish literature as applied to God. God is rarely addressed as Father in the Old Testament and there are only a few examples of it in Palestinian Judaism during the early Christian era. The first appearance of "my Father" is in the Middle Ages. The use of the term "abba" as a personal address to God is unknown in Jewish writings. Jews of Jesus' day would have considered it improper, indeed scandalous, for a person to use such intimate titles for God. They realised that, in speaking this way, Jesus was making himself equal with God, and so sought to kill him (John 5:16-18).

Jesus took this claim further. He declared HIMSELF to be the ONLY ONE who knew the Father, and therefore the only one who could reveal him to others (Matthew 11:27; John 6:46). He was one WITH the Father (John 10:30,38). Everything that belonged to the Father belonged to HIM (John 16:15; 17:10). The Father would send the Holy Spirit to believers in HIS NAME (John 14:26). To have our prayers answered we are to ask the Father in HIS NAME (John 14:13; 15:16; 16:23,24). He claimed to be THE Son of God - not a son of God (Matthew 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,17; 21:33-41; Luke 22:70; John 1:49,50; 5:19-27; 10:36,38, etc.).

He claimed authority over the lives of people

Jesus invited a love and a loyalty that took precedence over love and loyalty for parents, children, possessions, and even life itself. Without giving him this kind of devotion people could not be his disciples (Matthew 8:21,22; 10:37; 19:29; Luke 14:26-33). He expected people to suffer insults, persecution and slander for his sake (Matthew 5:11, Luke 6:22) and to lose their lives for his sake (Matthew 10:39; 16:25). He expected people to acknowledge him before others and said they would be rewarded for doing so (Matthew 10:32). His Father would honour those who served him (John 12:26). He claimed to be his disciples' only Master, Teacher and Lord (Matthew 23:8-10; John 13:14).

He claimed to be a king with the right to rule over others (Matthew 25:34; 27:11; John 1:49,50; 18:37), and spoke of "MY KINGDOM" (Luke 22:29,30; John 18:36). One of his most common ways of describing himself was to call himself the "Son of Man". The Son of Man is a figure who appears in the book of the prophet Daniel who is given a kingdom of universal domain and eternal duration (Daniel 7:13,14).

The claim that was perhaps the most startling of all was that one day he would come again, this time in power and glory. All judgement had been committed to him and HE WOULD BE THE ONE TO CALL MAN FROM THEIR GRAVES FOR JUDGMENT (Matthew 7:22,23; 13:41; 16:27; 24:30; 25:31-46; 26:64; Luke 9:26; John 5:22,23, 27-30; 6:40)

He spoke of the future church as HIS church and that they would meet in HIS name (Matthew 16:18; 18:20). He said WE could do nothing of significance without having a right relationship with HIM (John 15:5). Finally HE declared that ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH WAS HIS (Matthew 28:18). You can't have much more authority than that!

His estimate of his own character

Jesus dared challenge his opponents to prove him guilty of sin (John 8:46). He always did what pleased his Father (John 8:29). The devil had no hold on him (John 14:30).

His estimate of his own teaching

Jesus' purpose for coming into the world was to bear witness to the truth and those who were "of the truth" would listen to him (John 18:37). He went further and declared "I am the truth" (John 14:6). He claimed the right to put his own interpretation on the moral commands God had previously given his people through Moses (Matthew 5:21,22,27,28). In Jewish thinking a rabbi's authority only came to him as derived from Moses. Yet in these, and in several other instances, Jesus is plainly claiming an authority superior to that of Moses. Ernst Kasemann, in The Problem of the Historical Jesus, says:

To this there are no Jewish parallels, nor indeed can there be. For the Jew who is doing what is done here has cut himself off from the community of Judaism - or else he brings the messianic Torah [Law] and is therefore the Messiah.

As Lord of the Sabbath he had the right to declare what was lawful on the Sabbath day (Matthew 12:1-8). Hearing and obeying his teaching was the only solid foundation for life (Matthew 7:24-27). His words would never pass away (Matthew 24:35). If people were ashamed of his words he would be ashamed of them at the judgement (Luke 9:26). Hearing his word is necessary for having eternal life (John 5:24). His teaching came from God and he only said the things his Father told him to say (John 7:16; 8.40; 12:49,50). On judgement day, the word he had spoken would be the criteria by which we would be judged (John 12:48). Attention to his words was a requirement for having our prayers answered (John 15:7). THOSE WHO KEPT HIS WORDS WOULD NOT SEE DEATH (John 8:51). He said in John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

As the noted Anglican scholar, John Stott, sums it up:

The distinction between wisdom and folly in this life and between survival and judgement in the next, he dared to say, would depend on whether people had listened to HIS teaching and had obeyed or disobeyed it.

To add emphasis to the solemn nature of his statements, Jesus frequently preceded them with the words "Amen, I say to you" or "Amen, Amen, I say to you". There are over 70 instances of this in the gospels. "Amen" is normally used at the end of prayers to assert one's affirmation of, or agreement with, what has been prayed. Using it in the way Jesus did is unknown elsewhere in Jewish literature. Translations into English use such phrases as "Truly, truly" or "I am telling you the truth" to try to convey its meaning.

He was the fulfilment of all prophecy

"To know him was to know God, to believe in him was to believe in God, to hate him was to hate God, to honour him was to honour God"
Jesus said he had come to fulfil the Old Testament prophecies (Matthew 5:17; 11:2-6; 26:54,56; Luke 4:17-21; 24:25-27, 44). The Old Testament Scriptures spoke of him (John 5:39-40, 46). He was the Messiah (Hebrew) or Christ (Greek) anticipated by faithful Jews (Matthew 16:16,17; 26:63,64; John 4:25,26). False Christs would come in his name (Matthew 24:5). His contemporaries' eyes and ears were actually seeing and hearing what had for centuries been foretold (Matthew 13:16,17).

Professor Moule, a leading English New Testament scholar, says:

The notion of the fulfilment of Scripture in a single individual, a figure of recent history, and he a condemned criminal, who claimed to be the coping stone of the whole structure, and the goal of God's whole design, was new. And it was the Christian community which first related together, round a single focus, the scattered and largely disconnected images of Israel's hope. It was utterly new for images like 'Messiah', 'Christ', 'Son of God', 'Son of Man', 'Suffering Servant' and 'Lord' to be seen as interchangeable terms all relating to one figure.

What is even more significant is that the new Christian community was only following Jesus' lead. He first used such terms to describe himself.

Only through HIM can eternal life be obtained

Jesus claimed that he was the one who could give people eternal life - that quality of life which comes from being rightly related to God (John 6:27; 10:28; 17:1,2). The way to receive eternal life was to trust in him (John 3:15,16; 6:27,40,51; 11:26). He associated "following" him with "entering the kingdom of heaven" and "inheriting eternal life" (Matthew 19:21-23, 28, 29). He was the gate into salvation's fold (John 10:9). He was the only way to God (John 14:6).

Not believing in him was the ultimate sin (John 16:8,9). Those who did not believe in him would die in their sins (John 8:24). He came to establish a new covenant between God and man which, by implication, would replace that established with Abraham and Moses. His death would be a chief factor in the operation of this covenant (Matthew 26:28; Luke 22:20; Mark 10:45).

This is rather long, but I think it clarifies the point that Jesus Christ is God!

Jesus Christ and His Father are one (John 10:30)!!!!

I
InTheLight Feb 17, 2008

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(John 1:3)

With the verse from John's gospel that I have quoted above in mind, consider the following;

Draw a box, in the box will be everything that exists. Divide the box into two parts. In one part list all things that never came into being (uncreated things). God is the only being that could fit here, He is the only thing that exists that is uncreated.

In the other part of the box list all things that came into being (created things). According to verse three of John 1, evrything in this box was created through Jesus. Remember that by the laws of logic the two boxes are mutually exclusive and they also encompass all beings.

Which box does Jesus Christ belong in?

In Christ,

Ron

sermonindex Feb 17, 2008

Another Deity post??? Do you REALLY want to start this up again?
:-P (got me chuckling)

The question is, Is Jesus the creator or the creation? Why can't He be both?

Jesus the Spirit [inner man] is God - Creator. All things were made by Him.

Jesus the Man - Creation. He was born of a virgin.

Could be wrong, just thinking.

C
ChrisJD Feb 17, 2008

Hi everyone,


Was wondering if I could contribute this also,


In Isaiah it is asked:


[b][color=000000] To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? [/color][/b]


and


[b][color=000000] To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. [/color][/b]


- Isaiah 4:18,25(KJV)


And then in the Psalms it is asked


[b][color=000000] For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? [i]who[/i] among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? [/color][/b]


- Psalm 89:6(KJV)

So what else is Paul saying in Colossians 1:15, but that Christ is God?


But as to His being the firstborn, later in the 89th Psalm it says

[b][color=000000] Also I will make him [i]my[/i] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. [/color][/b]

- Psalm 89:27(KJV)

Chris

sermonindex Feb 17, 2008


Strider100 wrote:
...You guys sure did love sister Wildbranch. :-)
Yes, love, tough love, deep concern, for her and for those influenced by her. And concern for Truth.

Sadly it had no apparent effect except for a negative one.

But truth is far more than getting our doctrines right - there is the Spirit of truth and a spirit of error (1John 4:6). Many doctrines that we disagree on are not vital to our being Christians, but the deity of Christ is one of the vital ones.

Rejecting who Jesus is comes under the category of "doctrines of demons".

You analysed a passage verse by verse to "prove" your beliefs. But there are many many passages showing that Jesus is Lord of all, and not a created being Anyone can "disprove" one individual passage if they try hard enough, but taken all together the weight of evidence is overwhelming.

But, above all, we have to allow ourselves to be taught by the Spirit of Truth, or we will inevitably fall into, and be led astray by a spirit of error.

I recently posted on another thread (prayer request section), something that has a bearing on this. It's all to do with [i]knowing[/i] Jesus, as a Person. As we learn to know Him more and more we begin also to realise who He is. And we find that the Bible confirms what we had already begun to realise.

Unless of course our faith is twisted and hijacked by false doctrines, and we stray from the simplicity that is in Christ into "cleverly devised fables", as Paul calls them.

In the other thread, I said:

"[i][color=000000]It isn't simply a matter of argument about correct doctrine, (do any of us get it 100% right?), but where there is a spirit of error influencing a person then there can be real problems.

The deity of Christ is more than a doctrine, it is a response to, and relationship with a Person. The Enemy is out to destroy that relationship, and sometimes he uses intellectual and doctrinal doubts to do this.

The man born blind (John 9) didn't have a clue who Jesus was at first; he only knew that Jesus had given him eyes and he could now see. So Jesus revealed Himself afresh to him; knowing that he had an eager and open heart and was ready to believe.

When a new Christian, I wasn't sure either, about several basic truths, including the deity of Christ; but the Lord revealed more of Himself and opened my understanding to understand more of the Scriptures (as He did with the two on the Emmaus Road after He rose from the dead).

But as we go on in life we often lose that childlike responsiveness that springs from "first love", and start analysing and questioning instead of just believing Him.

Been there![/color][/i]"

in His Love

Jeannette

sermonindex Feb 17, 2008

Stephen, how do you explain Isaiah 48:16? Who is speaking here, who is sending whom?

[color=990000]16 Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.” And now the Lord GOD has sent me and his Spirit. [/color]

Just a thought, not putting it up as a "proof text" but it's such an amazing, yet obscure scripture. I don't think anyone else has brought it up yet...

Jeannette

sermonindex Feb 18, 2008

Other hints of Christ's divinity

Jesus claimed the right to forgive sins (Matthew 9:1-8; Luke 7:48,49). C. S. Lewis, professor of Medieval and Renaissance Literature at the University of Cambridge, has a pertinent comment to make on this claim in his book Mere Christianity. It is worth quoting in full:

Now unless the speaker is God, this is really so preposterous as to be comic. We can all understand how a man forgives offences against himself. You tread on my toe and I forgive you, you steal my money and I forgive you. But what should we make of a man, himself unrobbed and untrodden on, who announced that he forgave you for treading on other men's toes and stealing other men's money? Asinine fatuity is the kindest description we should give of his conduct. Yet this is what Jesus did. He told people that their sins were forgiven, and never waited to consult all the other people whom their sins had undoubtedly injured. He unhesitatingly behaved as if He was the party chiefly concerned, the person chiefly offended in all offences. This makes sense only if He really was the God whose laws are broken and whose love is in every sin. In the mouth of any speaker who is not God these words would imply what I can only regard a s a silliness unrivalled by any other character in history.

Forgiveness would be preached in his name (Luke 24:47).
He was greater than the temple, the prophet Jonah and king Solomon (Matthew 12:6, 41, 42).

He allowed himself to be worshipped (Matthew 14:33; John 9:38).

He could take a quotation from the Old Testament that referred to God and use it of himself
(Matthew 21:15,16 - quoting from Psalm 8:1,2).

He was the one who had sent the prophets of old to gather together God's people (Matthew 23:37).

The images Jesus used of himself - the Good Shepherd, the Light of the World, the Bread of Life, the Way, the Truth, the Life, the true Vine, and the Resurrection - point to divinity, especially in the contexts in which he used them and when compared with similar associations in the Old Testament.

He would send the Holy Spirit to live in his disciples (John 15:26; 16:7). He accepted Thomas' acknowledgment, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28,29).

To know him was to know God (John 8:19; 14:7);

to see him was to see God (John 12:45; 14:9);

to believe in him was to believe in God (John 12:44);

to receive him was to receive God (Mark 9:37);

to hate him was to hate God (John 15:23);

and to honour him was to honour God (John 5:23).

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