due to scripture i now feel baptism is needed

please dont take this as me trying to convert people to a different doctrine. im so confused and for a whole week have been so stressed and lost. its hard to sleep when im not sure anymore if i will go to hell or not. but no christian can even give me much scripture on baptism not being needed for salvation and please im begging for help now. something tells me we dont need baptism for salvation but scripture seems to prove otherwise very much so.
well i have organized my thoughts and i hope that someone can give a good arguement that baptism is not needed for salvation, but i will put down what these people believe and why they believe the scriptures. but please dont post anything if you want to give an opinion that is not fully supported by scripture. so here i go...

i argued about the theif on the cross with these people to show how he did not get baptized but they gave me a good answer based on scripture. it fits right in because they said that while jesus lived on earth, theres no way they were to follow the new testament. baptism according to passages such as romans, says you die, are buried and are resurected with christ. well the theif couldnt die resurect nor be buried with christ. everyone who got saved such as the theif on the cross and others, it was because jesus had the authorit to forgive sins and no way could baptism mean what it means in the new testments...well atleast after the gospels.
now you might say thats not true because people were always baptizing, however, it was no required to save, and i will show scripture that says it is required to save from the bible. circumsicion however was thought to save people though but it was symbolic. no where does paul say its symbolic in his scripture he only says circumcision was.

now what about when jesus says those that believe and are baptized will be saved. sure he says but if you dont believe your condemned and we wonder well ok but it doesnt include baptism. well neither parts include repent. i guess we dont even have to repent. no because if we believe jesus then we know that he required repentance which is part of our belief in him, which also means that he commanded to be baptized also. so if you argue that he says nothing about baptism for condemnation then you have to realize he says nothing about repentance and i guess we dont need to repent cus we will be saved just by believing.

now what about when jesus says unless you are born of water and spirit. why cant water mean water? i heard that water means spirit or holy spirit i forgot which one but that makes no sense...is jesus saying unless you are born of spirit and spirit? did he mess up in his speech? that makes no sense. however baptism throughout the bible is used with words such as a new birth and other words to show rebirth, hench born again of water.

now heres one that gets me. what about in 1peter when it says that the water from noahs ark symbolizes baptism...its strange how water is tied with baptism in that passage but ok lets still go ahead and say it is a spirit baptism not anything to do with water baptism. well why does he then go on to say it saves you, not the removal of dirt from the body. ok now if hes talking about the spirit, then of course we know the spirit doesnt take dirt off your body. in fact he had no reason to say this because we wouldnt even of thought about that. lets take for example, if he said, " and this bannana saves you, not the removal of dirt from the body...ok now why would we even need to hear that a bannana doesnt remove dirt from your body, this wouldnt even cross our minds. so lets see what evidence we have pointing to water baptism. for some reason paul talks about water from noah, and then he includes that this baptism doesnt remove dirt from your body. now if paul was talking about water baptism then we could see how people might say, "hey i guess we are saved because we also need to be cleansed from your filth on our bodies." but paul lets them know that its a cleansing that means more than cleaning your body on the outside.

now some people might say well what about when cornelious in acts got the holy spirit and in the beginning of acts when the holy spirit came down on the people. but think about this. these were the only occasions that there was no baptism. lets look at cornelious. he was already looked at by god because he had been god fearing and doing great works. but he just had never heard of jesus yet because jesus never left jerusalem....if im wrong there then sorry, but i do know for sure that these people hadnt heard of jesus or what had happened, this is why the apostles would travel the world to preach what had happened. anyways, since he didnt know about jesus, he would never know about baptism and therfor not be baptized the way jesus commanded. and peter couldnt understand what his dream meant yet. now remember jews were thought to be so unclean in gods eyes to even associate with gentiles and such people. this means that peter would still have the belief from being a jew that gentiles were still not favored in gods eyes and this also means he would never baptize a gentile. but think about it. this was the only other time besides acts chapter 2 that the holy spirit came upon him before baptism. but at the same time it didnt say he recieved the spirit, it says it came upon..but this was also the ONLY time one did not get baptized. so the only time one did not get baptized was also the time when peter now knew it was ok to baptize gentiles.

for my last argument, some point out scriptures in acts such as with the guard saying sirs what must i do to be saved. well they say believe in the lord jesus. now sure they didnt include baptism, but they also did not include repenance. again just as jesus says those that dont believe are condemn and doesnt include baptism, they also say believe in the lord jesus but do not say repent. meaning if they did not tell the man to repent nor be baptized yet baptises him later could only mean that to believe in jesus means to also believe what he commanded which includes repentance and baptism. this could also show how he must of explained baptism and repentance to them as for why they so quickly got baptized after going to the river. this could also explain why they even went to a river. i know they went for wounds, but im just saying i can see some connections there, because like i said they said nothing about repentance. so please prove to me with scripture against scripture why we dont need baptism. im very torn between the two but more on we need baptism.

Brother,

If it is on your heart to get baptized and the Lord is leading you to this, GET BAPTIZED!

The problem never lies with baptism, which is scriptual, it is what people do AFTER being baptized that many worry about.

Some may and will disagree, but being baptized in no way means you will go to heaven. If it was, most everyone would get baptized and only baptized. Make sure that before you get baptized that you are willing to loose everything, everyone and even your own life for Jesus. If you are not prepared to loose your life for the sake of Christ...

[u][b]Mark 8:35-37 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

"For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?"

[u][b]Galatians 5:1-3 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law."

Find freedom in Christ brother.

Repent and believe.

That’s it.

By faith alone you are saved.

Anything else adds the work of man.

Get baptized to show others your heart and openly declare your love for God.

This should be a desire.

If you get baptized in order to save yourself…then…you add your works…and it shows you do not have faith in Christ alone...that He did not do enough...and you need to help finish or complete your salvation.

Repent and believe in Christ and his work on the cross.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Luckyd,

[i]Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.[/i]

Mat 3:13 -15

Dear Brother, did you absorb any of the other mentions given you in the other posting you put up? You do not need an argument nor an explanation nor to tie yourself into knotts over this. The Lord gave you an example Himself even though he had no necessity of a Baptism that we have.

Go and do likewise.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

This is the only baptism that is salvations completeness.

Let us fulfill all righteousness? In this is water baptism given for the sake of the completeness of baptism that has occurred in us by Christ and the Holy Spirit being bapized into us, not as a work but as a fulfillment of the righteousness we have received in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Then by the righteousness of Christ in us we want to be baptized in water, not for the cleansing of the flesh but in Love for the Savior, which fulfills all righteousness in Him. We have a new nature and that nature now wants to please Him. In pleasing Him I want to share His righteousness with the world, and be baptized in water that all might see my obedience and love is now for Him.

Baptism is of much importance, but not unto salvation, only unto obedience and Love in wanting to be associated with Him in fulfilling righteousness by following Him and His example.

Only the Christ in you is pleasing to God. He is our righteousness before God, not our water baptism.

In Christ: Phillip

Without water baptism it is impossible to please God.

where is that in scripture??

Relax, it was a joke.

anyways, have a good one. ;-)
phil

KrispyKrittr wrote:
You've asked for a lot of advice... have you ignored it?

Baptism is a work. You are saved by grace thru faith. [b]Faith is NOT a work[/b] (contrary to what Calvinists believe).

Scripture is very clear about this.

You're thinking too hard.

Krispy

1 Thess 1:13 Remembering without ceasing your [b]WORK of faith[/b], and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thess 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and [b]the WORK OF FAITH[/b] with power:

Faith and works MUST go together. A man is justified by works-and works is what makes faith complete.

James 2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee [b]my faith BY my WORKS[/b]

James 2:22Seest thou how [b]faith WROUGHT with his works[/b], and[b] BY WORKS was faith made PERFECT[/b]?

This is one thing that the Bible is clear on:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that [b]BY WORKS a man IS JUSTIFIED, and NOT By FAITH ONLY[/b].

The Bible is clear that we not saved by faith ALONE:
James 2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? [b]can faith save him[/b]

The implication that James is giving is clearly that faith (alone) cannot save him.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Blazed, your exegesis is bad, and your conclusions are wrong. Proof texting out of context is never a good idea.

E-sword is great, but this is an example of how it can be like playing with a loaded gun.

"Faith" in James means "mental assent; an intellectual belief in the existence of God." You can see this in verses 14, 17, 19. The faith that James talks about is a faith that even the demons can have! James was the leader of the Messianic church in Jerusalem and so he uses terms in the same way the non-Messianic Jews in Jerusalem do. The Pharisees and rabbis in Jerusalem spoke of the assertion of monotheism and the mere intellectual assent to orthodox teaching as "having faith." Does this kind of faith save people? NO! And Paul would have agreed. Intellectual faith does NOT save anyone.

The kind of "faith", Paul talks about is "absolute trust; total dependence on God; being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised" (Romans 4:5,18,21). This is more than just intellectual faith! The difference between James' "faith" and Paul's use of the word is the difference between believing a parachute could save you if you jumped out of a plane (James) and actually jumping out of a plane and pulling the ripcord (Paul).

"Justified" is the other word that is being used differently. Paul is talking about being justified in God's sight (Romans 5:1). James is talking about being justified before men (James 2:18). "Don't tell me that you have faith, show me!" James says.

James gives the example of Abraham's offering of Isaac (Genesis 22). He says this action by Abraham was proof before men of Abraham's righteousness: "Was not Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" (James 2:21). But James is quick to add that Abraham was made righteous before God some 30 years prior to this event: "Abraham believed God and his faith was credited to him as righteousness" (James 2:23; Genesis 15:6).

There is no contradiction between Paul and James when you realize that the one is talking about justification before God and one is talking about justification before men.

Krispy

The Greek word AND definition of "faith" in James chapter 2:

Faith-Pistis, conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
relating to God
the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ relating to Christ
[b]a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God[/b] the religious beliefs of Christians belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same fidelity, faithfulness
the character of one who can be relied on

[url=http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4102&version=kjv]Definition of Faith in Greek in James 2[/url]

What is the very first verse in James 2:1 about faith:

James 2:1 My brethren, have not [b]the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ[/b], the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

This is the "faith" that all of James 2 is speaking of.

"Pistis is used in ALL these verses in James 2:

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Also I might add: There is only: ONE FAITH, One Lord, One Baptism

The Bible is clear that this faith, is about believing in God" verse 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils do not give a mental assent, they KNOW that God is real-more so than some Christians-it even adds that they "TREMBLE" how or why would they "tremble" with only a mental assent of faith?

James is not saying that you cannot have faith without works. He is saying that if you do have the Faith of Jesus Christ your works will show forth this faith.

Everybody always uses this portion of scripture to validate their works instead of validating their Faith.

"Have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ." Faith is the distinguishing thing in the Christian Body of Christ, for it is this by which man is justified, and hence it comes to be put for the Body of Christ itself. The meaning here is, "Do not hold such views of the body of Christ, as to lead you to manifest partiality to others on account of their difference of rank or outward circumstances or works of a falseness in their faith. The faith must show forth the trueness of the works in whom Christ is, being shown in the believers walk, thus validating the Faith is the Faith of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Not that without works their is no faith.

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Now with a little help from Albert Barns comentary of the Bible;

The subject of justification, showing that works are necessary in order that a man may be justified, or esteemed righteous before God, Jas 2:14-26. For a general view of the design of this part of the epistle, The object here is to show that in fact no one can be regarded as truly righteous before God who does not lead an upright life; and that if a man professes to have faith, and has not works, he cannot be justified; or that if he have real faith, it will be shown by his works. If it is not shown by works corresponding to its nature, it will be certain that there is no true religion, or that his professed faith is worth nothing. The "stand point" from which James views the subject, is not that faith is unnecessary or worthless, or that a man is not justified by faith rather than by his own works, in the sense of its being the ground of acceptance with God; or, in other words, the place where the apostle takes his position, and which is the point from which he views the subject, is not before a man is justified, to inquire in what way he may be accepted of God, but it is after the act of justification by faith, to show that if faith does not lead to good works it is no faith at all, it is, "dead," or is of no value to show forth the faith of Jesus Christ in the believer; and that in fact, therefore, the evidence of justification by faith, is to be found in good living, and that when this is not manifest, all a man's professed religion is worth nothing. In doing this, he

(a) makes the general statement, by a pointed interrogatory, that faith cannot profit, that is, cannot save a man, unless there be also works, that follow the act of justification, by the birthing of Christ in the believer.Jas 2:14.

He then;

(b) appeals, for an illustration, to the case of one who is hungry or naked, and asks what mere faith could do in his case, if it were not accompanied with proper acts of benevolence, Jas 2:15-17. He then,

(c) by a strong supposable case, says that real faith will be evinced by works, or that works are the proper evidence of its existence, Jas 2:18.
End;

Not that faith without works is "dead", but that faith never existed as shown forth by the works.

Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The Faith of Jesus Christ as Paul says many times, by the Faith that we now possess, it being imputed to us by His Life that is born again in the believer.

So truly faith without works is dead, it is truly a dead faith that never existed in the professing religeous person who has respect for,"partiality to others on account of their difference of rank or outward circumstances or works of a falseness in their faith.

In The Faith of Christ by His Works in me:

Phillip

Quote:

""The implication that James is giving is clearly that faith (alone) cannot save him.""

That is so true, it first takes Grace.

Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi everybody,

Please allow me to contribute to this.

I just want to quote a few verses and Hopefully that will help you brother.

I like to go right to the fountain of knowledge.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

what is to be born of water?

whatever that means to you, you must do it, for Jesus said it Himself, unless you do it, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

======

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Here it talks about two things. One is faith and the other baptism.

Please look carefully at the text. It doesn't talk only about faith, it also mentions baptism.

++++++

The other interesting thing is here.

Acts 8:35-38 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Why would the Eunuch ask to be baptized?

Why didn't phillip say, it was not necessary for His salvation?

Why was Jesus baptized? did He need it?

=======

and a last verse.

1 Peter 3:20-21 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism

=====

People like to mention the thief on the cross.

I believe that God is a God of allowances, He will judge us according to our knowledge and also according to our situation.

God is a God of mercy and not sacrifice. The thief on the cross believed in Jesus and therefore He was saved, because God is a God of merci, but let's not forgete the verses that I quoted above. if Jesus said that we must be born of water and spirit then why would we run the risk of disobeing Him.

Some say that you do not need to be baptized despite of Jesus said.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Dear brother if you are in doubt, go to scriptures and you will find what Jesus said to all of us.

unless there is a text in the bible that says clearly, you do not need baptism, then fine, otherwise, trust the bible and not opinions.

luckyd, Look at it in reverse.

Ask yourself where is it in scripture that someone was rebuked for no or improper baptism.

These people try to unsettle you to make you think you left something out.

Get away from these people.They are bad news(no pun intended)

Born again plus nothing.
This is the correct position.(as far as salvation)

now align yourself with proven ministries and draw close to them.

Quote;something tells me we dont need baptism for salvation but scripture seems to prove otherwise very much so.

Your discernment is correct,you discerned properly

When they quoted you that dialog between Jesus and Nicodemus,they essentially asked you to make a flying leap with them that water means water baptism.

Align yourself with the very best.
Not those that would unsettle you in salvation.

David