Matt. 3:16-17; "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Now if Jesus was the same person as God The Father then Christ was a ventriloquist.
Brother - there are only four groups of 'christians' that you could be directing this thread at, Trinitarians, Unitarians, the latest group that doesn't believe in the Deity/Trinity Messianics or Oneness folks.
Who are you asking this for?
Thanks!!!
God is always present, all-mighty, and can
express Himself in any way He so desires!!
And He very much wanted His Only Son to know
He was delighted with HIM!! Why it is so
diificult for you to accept the incarnate
Word made flesh, the expression of the Father's
redeeming grace, love, mercy, and truth ??
Tears of Joy (I beleive) said this in another post, but it is a great question for everyone.
Please explain how 1 + 1 + 1 = 1
Once you figure this equation out, you will understand the Trinity. Until that time, you will not understand the Trinity in its fullest.
Hope this helps :-)
Brother, the very title of this thread grieves me. It's irreverent and shows a great lack of the fear of the Lord.
If you have questions or want to begin a discussion about something, there are proper ways to do so without being insulting to either God or your brothers and sisters in Christ.
Shouldn't it be
Miccah wrote:
Tears of Joy (I beleive) said this in another post, but it is a great question for everyone.
Please explain how 1 + 1 + 1 = 1
Once you figure this equation out, you will understand the Trinity. Until that time, you will not understand the Trinity in its fullest.Hope this helps :-)
To me the passage means Father, Son and Holy Spirit coming together at one point on the earth and into time, to begin the work of redemption.
There's a little Christmas poem that has the lines
[i]"God steps into time
From Everlastingness"
...Yes, it is a horrible title for a thread, and would only make sense to those groups of people mentioned.
Can it be changed?
Jeannette
you've hit the nail on the head.Brother, the very title of this thread grieves me. It's irreverent and shows a great lack of the fear of the Lord.
what is the purpose of this title? shock value? irreverance??
i don't get it. like brother keith said, if there is a question or concern, ask away. but let's do it in the fear of the Lord.
phil
quotes: [i]Please explain how 1 + 1 + 1 = 1
Once you figure this equation out, you will understand the Trinity. Until that time, you will not understand the Trinity in its fullest
and
quote: [i]Shouldn't it be
1 x 1 x 1 = 1? Which makes more sense spiritually as well as mathematically!
The answer to this mathematical conundrum is well explained here: [b]www.torahofmessiah.com
Stephen
I am also wondering to whom and why the question was posed in such a manner
:-?
I believe the trinity is one of the foremost ideas that must be accepted by faith. It is undoubtedly true but some people have a need to fully understand things before believing them. The problem is, that's going to be impossible to do with God. If God were a God I could fully understand, I frankly wouldn't want Him to be God. Understanding the concept of a triune God is incomprehensible to the human mind.
The Bible is very clear that there is one God. It also teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is God. Even the word "trinity," which isn't used in the Bible at all, is man's way of applying some level of understanding to one God made up of three "Persons."
There are scriptures galore to show all of this. All of the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic words in scripture that explain the trinity have all been studied to full assurance by Bible scholars and laymen alike.
There is simply no other choice but to either accept it by faith or to reject it completely. Seeking God diligently in prayer should certainly resolve the matter.
Edited to Add: Please forgive me and the tone of my post. After re-reading it, I didn't like the way it came across. More time should have been taken longer to review it before submitting. No harshness or judgment in what I said. I'm afraid I came across as looking down on anyone who is struggling to understand an understandably difficult concept to wrap the mind around. I sincerely apologize.
dear stephen, if you want to discuss the trinity, create a thread and discuss it. but linking torahofmessiah.com does nothing to further talks, but your own agenda.The answer to this mathematical conondrum is well explained here: www.torahofmessiah.com
Stephen
just my take man,
phil
you've hit the nail on the head.
LoveHim wrote:Brother, the very title of this thread grieves me. It's irreverent and shows a great lack of the fear of the Lord.
what is the purpose of this title? shock value? irreverance??
i don't get it. like brother keith said, if there is a question or concern, ask away. but let's do it in the fear of the Lord.
That being said...
Since when were we supposed to [i]understand
I have never been offended by a question by people in regard to the concept of a "trinity." When I first came to the Lord, I had no idea if the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were one and the same. The entire idea seemed quite foreign to me. In fact, I worried about the possibility of worshipping Jesus -- when in fact, I should only bow before God. If Jesus was NOT God -- then I could not bow my knee to Him. So I went about reading the Word of God to look for an answer to this issue.
It didn't take long before I came to a conclusion that Jesus was both the Son of God and one with God. I know that this can't make much sense to our limited human intellects, but the concept of a "trinity" is certainly presented in the Word of God.
It completely changes our understanding of God's plan for salvation. God created us, set up an eternal Law that required obedience AND sacrifice, gave us FREE WILL, watched us fail at fulfilling the Law, and knew the end of disobedience (eternal damnation). So what did He do?
He became flesh and dwelt among us.
He was PERFECT.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
He walked as a human being, tempted in every way as we are.
He allowed Himself to be mocked, accused, tortured, and killed by His own earthly creation.
The sacrifice of Jesus become all the more powerful when we realize that it was the blood of our God that was being shed -- rather than the blood of a mere angel or "perfect man."
My paternal grandmother was a Jew. She, like many others, had difficulty in understanding the concept of a Messiah that is also “G-d.” To many Jews, the Messiah is supposed to be a [i]human prince[i]Yeshua
“[i]He came unto His own, and His own did not receive Him.
As a Jew, Keith Green struggled with the notion of a Messiah who was both Man and God. His struggles are presented in the biography written by his wife, Melody, in [i]No Compromise: The Life Story of Keith Green[i]Trinity
“In the beginning was the Word, [b]and the Word was with God, and the Word was God[b]He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not[b]And the Word was made flesh
“In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth.” - Genesis 1:1
:-)
The answer to this mathematical conundrum is well explained here:
Strider100 wrote::[i]Shouldn't it be
1 x 1 x 1 = 1? Which makes more sense spiritually as well as mathematically![/i]
Jeannette
freecd,
you forgot:
magician: turned water into wine
acrobat: walked on water
concessions vendor: multiplied the loaves
clown: turned hatred (frown) upsidedown
bub
Indeed!
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:Since when were we supposed to
[i]understand[/i] the mind and makeup of God?
You are right, thanks for the reminder. Actually it isn't the question as such that offends, but using a question to push an agenda. Especially an agenda that has some definite characteristics of a cult.I have never been offended by a question by people in regard to the concept of a "trinity."
Me neither.When I first came to the Lord, I had no idea if the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were one and the same. The entire idea seemed quite foreign to me.
At first I had no idea that Jesus had anything to do with the wonderful thing that had happened to me, I only knew that I could now call God, "Father" and that somehow He had come into my life in a totally new way, and I would never be the same again.
Then, less than a week later, someone asked me "Do you love the Lord Jesus?", and instantly such love and worship welled up in my heart, "Oh, YES!!!"
Some time later I was wrestling with the concept of the Holy Spirit. I knew the Bible said that He is a person, and He is God, but couldn't seem to "get it" deep down. So I asked Him to show me, (the first time of probably only twice I have ever prayed [i]to
And He did!
AMEN! I think we came to this truth from opposite ends, Chris :-); you found out by studying the Bible first, I found out by encounter with the Lord ("all" of Him, Father first, Son second, Holy Spirit third)! Then discovered more and more of the Scriptural evidence to confirm what He had already showed me.So I went about reading the Word of God to look for an answer to this issue.It didn't take long before I came to a conclusion that Jesus was both the Son of God and one with God. I know that this can't make much sense to our limited human intellects, but the concept of a "trinity" is certainly presented in the Word of God.
That in itself should cause us to bow down in amazed awe and worship....He became flesh and dwelt among us.
He was PERFECT.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
He walked as a human being, tempted in every way as we are.
He allowed Himself to be mocked, accused, tortured, and killed by His own earthly creation.
Yes, I can understand anyone struggling with this concept. What I have difficulty with is someone who isn'tMy paternal grandmother was a Jew. She, like many others, had difficulty in understanding the concept of a Messiah that is also “G-d.” To many Jews, the Messiah is supposed to be a[i]human prince[/i] – or a “Moshiach ben David” (Messiah, son of David) which would be anointed as both a King and conqueror. Theoretically, Messiah was supposed to conquer the Earth and restore the Kingdom of Israel. This was the cause for the question by His disciples in Acts chapter 1 (about “restoring the Kingdom of Israel”). Yet, Jesus Christ ([i]Yeshua[/i] Ha’Mashiach) came – not as a prince born in a palace, but one that was born in a manger. Instead of coming with a sword, He came as a sacrifice. Instead of being given a crown of Gold, He was offered a crown of thorns.“
[i]He came unto His own, and His own did not receive Him.[/i] ” (John 1:11)As a Jew, Keith Green struggled with the notion of a Messiah who was both Man and God...
As has been said before, the rules of Greek grammar mean that“In the beginning was the Word,[b]and the Word was with God, and the Word was God[/b] .
John 1:1The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.[b]He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not[/b] . He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[b]And the Word was made flesh[/b] , and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” - John 1:1-14“In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth.” - Genesis 1:1
:-)
The real question is not really theological. It is: "Do you [i]know
As I said in another thread, the man born blind, (John 9) wasn't sure who Jesus was either, not at first, (...a good man? Definitely...a prophet? Maybe). But Jesus knew his loyal and honest heart and revealed Himself further.
So He can do to us, as Chris has testified of himself and his family, and as I have testified.
It is not a sin to doubt the concept of the Trinity, but it is a sin not to want a living relationship with the living God, and to seek to know more of His fulness, and understand more of who He really is.
...Excuse the long post - it just grew! :-)
Thank you Chris
In Him
Jeannette
LittleGift wrote:
Shouldn't it be
1 x 1 x 1 = 1? Which makes more sense spiritually as well as mathematically!
Don't mean to split hairs on this issue, but that is why I posted the question as 1+1+1=1 There is no mathmatical or spiritual explanation sufficent enough for our mere human minds that can wrap around this. As humans, we always tend to NEED to understand something before we believe in it. Either way, I am happy with 1+1+1=1 or 1x1x1=1. Either way, I don't fully get it, but believe it becasue it is truth.
This reminds me of another question that always seems to stump people. Please explain eternity as something that can be truly comprehended.
Here is a great explanation of eternity that helps grasp the awesomeness of it. You may have heard it before, but I am going to throw it out here anyways.
Eternity:
There is a bird. And in the talons of that bird is a loin cloth. Once every 1000 years that bird flies over Mt. Everest, dragging the loin cloth over top of the top of that mountain. The bird continues to do this once every 1000 years (dragging the loin cloth over the top of the mountain). This happens only once every 1000 years, and then has to wait another 1000 years before making the same exact flight.
Once this mountain is rubbed all the way down to sea level by this bird dragging this loin cloth over the top of this mountian every 1000 years, [b]this will not even be the first second in eternity.
Indeed!
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:Since when were we supposed to
[i]understand[/i] the mind and makeup of God?
You are right, thanks for the reminder. Actually it isn't the question as such that offends, but using a question to push an agenda. Especially an agenda that has some definite characteristics of a cult.I have never been offended by a question by people in regard to the concept of a "trinity."
Me neither.When I first came to the Lord, I had no idea if the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were one and the same. The entire idea seemed quite foreign to me.
At first I had no idea that Jesus had anything to do with the wonderful thing that had happened to me, I only knew that I could now call God, "Father" and that somehow He had come into my life in a totally new way, and I would never be the same again.
Then, less than a week later, someone asked me "Do you love the Lord Jesus?", and instantly such love and worship welled up in my heart, "Oh, YES!!!"
Some time later I was wrestling with the concept of the Holy Spirit. I knew the Bible said that He is a person, and He is God, but couldn't seem to "get it" deep down. So I asked Him to show me, (the first time of probably only twice I have ever prayed [i]to
And He did!
AMEN! I think we came to this truth from opposite ends, Chris :-); you found out by studying the Bible first, I found out by encounter with the Lord ("all" of Him, Father first, Son second, Holy Spirit third)! Then discovered more and more of the Scriptural evidence to confirm what He had already showed me.So I went about reading the Word of God to look for an answer to this issue.It didn't take long before I came to a conclusion that Jesus was both the Son of God and one with God. I know that this can't make much sense to our limited human intellects, but the concept of a "trinity" is certainly presented in the Word of God.
That in itself should cause us to bow down in amazed awe and worship....He became flesh and dwelt among us.
He was PERFECT.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
He walked as a human being, tempted in every way as we are.
He allowed Himself to be mocked, accused, tortured, and killed by His own earthly creation.
Yes, I can understand anyone struggling with this concept. What I have difficulty with is someone who isn'tMy paternal grandmother was a Jew. She, like many others, had difficulty in understanding the concept of a Messiah that is also “G-d.” To many Jews, the Messiah is supposed to be a[i]human prince[/i] – or a “Moshiach ben David” (Messiah, son of David) which would be anointed as both a King and conqueror. Theoretically, Messiah was supposed to conquer the Earth and restore the Kingdom of Israel. This was the cause for the question by His disciples in Acts chapter 1 (about “restoring the Kingdom of Israel”). Yet, Jesus Christ ([i]Yeshua[/i] Ha’Mashiach) came – not as a prince born in a palace, but one that was born in a manger. Instead of coming with a sword, He came as a sacrifice. Instead of being given a crown of Gold, He was offered a crown of thorns.“
[i]He came unto His own, and His own did not receive Him.[/i] ” (John 1:11)As a Jew, Keith Green struggled with the notion of a Messiah who was both Man and God...
As has been said before, the rules of Greek grammar mean that“In the beginning was the Word,[b]and the Word was with God, and the Word was God[/b] .
John 1:1The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.[b]He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not[/b] . He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[b]And the Word was made flesh[/b] , and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” - John 1:1-14“In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth.” - Genesis 1:1
:-)
The real question is not really theological. It is: "Do you [i]know
As I said in another thread, the man born blind, (John 9) wasn't sure who Jesus was either, not at first, (...a good man? Definitely...a prophet? Maybe). But Jesus knew his loyal and honest heart and revealed Himself further.
So He can do to us, as Chris has testified of himself and his family, and as I have testified.
It is not a sin to doubt the concept of the Trinity, but it is a sin not to want a living relationship with the living God, and to seek to know more of His fulness, and understand more of who He really is.
...Excuse the long post - it just grew! :-)
Thank you Chris
In Him
Jeannette
[sorry, double post, I think it was moved and I thjought it had got lost and posted again! :-?]
I guess I dont have a problem with the title of this thread mainly because I like to sometimes use the title to catch everyone's eye.
Krispy
Matt. 26:39; "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
Did Jesus pray to Himself when He was on earth?
Mark 13:32; "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."
Now if Jesus was the same person as God The Father then why doesn't Christ have this same knowledge?
Hi freecd...
When God came to Earth in the form of a man, He confined Himself to the natural laws of this world. He set aside His omnipotence to become fleshly and mortal. This is why the temptation from Luke chapter 4 is so relevant. This is why He was able to be killed in the first place. He did this so that He could be acquainted (firsthand) with our suffering and sorrows.Matt. 26:39; "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."Did Jesus pray to Himself when He was on earth?
Mark 13:32; "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."
Now if Jesus was the same person as God The Father then why doesn't Christ have this same knowledge?
Now, the Son of God is no longer confined to such humanity.
:-)
By the way, one might wonder the purpose of this thread. Are you trying to convert opinions?
Let me ask you this: What is your opinion of John 1:1? Is Jesus the Word? Is He God? Did Jesus create the universe? Is Jesus the Creator (Genesis 1:1; John 1:1-5)?
Just something to ponder...
This discussion is locked.
